Is anyone else an atheist with BC besides me?
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Lisa--thanks for getting this thread motivated again! Makes for much soul-searching and deep thinking...I'm enjoying reading the newest posts. I grew up attending a Baptist church--have nothing but wonderful memories of that community--until one day in Sunday School (my teacher was the pastor's wife--this is back in the 60's...) I was told to pray long and hard to keep those people out of our church. Those people were moving into the community and would soon be wanting to attend our church. I was horrified at her rant and rave--to the extent I said some rather unkind words; never went back to that church, and have never regularly attended a church for some 40+ years. I am at peace with what I believe and don't like the hypocrisy of structured religion--and am glad to see so many others find comfort and happiness in their unique ways.
gentle huggggsssss to all.....
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I has been said that religion is the opiate of the people..this is OK...this is a form of social control...and keeps people relatively happy...this is why every culture has some form of it...
It is just not for me...
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Leaf...I don't think if you have strong faith, it has anything to do with being logical. I am a Christian and consider myself to have a "strong" faith. The basic tenets of my faith are ...that I believe the bible,every word, that it was inspired by the Holy Spirit. That man is of a sinful nature..in need of a Savior..that Savior is Jesus Christ for me.
Faith is believing when you can't understand it all, when you can't see the evidence. If someone doesn't believe the bible and its message, then none of this would make sense to them. There's no way to convince someone who doesn't want to believe the Bible. God says in the Bible..to those who don't believe, scripture will not be understood.
For me, I can't deny what happened in my heart when I became a Christian. I could "say" I don't believe, but it wouldn't "undo" the transformation that took place. If someone hasn't experienced that, it would be hard for them to understand. It will never be explained by "logic". It's a choice.
Great topic...I didn't realize the offense taken when I've told I was praying for someone. I won't use that phrase on the boards so loosely. Yet, I will still pray.
Dawn & Gill~ hope all is well today
Joni0 -
I understand scripture and am on the fence as to what I believe. I had to be dragged to Christmas service because my daughter wanted to go and not alone. I grew up Catholic and saw the egotistical, critical people walk out of the church and critcisize everyone on the way out the door. That is why I have had nothing to to with them for th elast 20 yrs. This is the tiff I have with God.
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I think the term"atheist" is misleading to some people--particularly Christians. If I say I am an atheist, I am saying I do not believe in God as defined by Christianity. There are many definitions of "God" which I could embrace--such as the "ground of being" or the "life force." I do not believe in a magical man in the sky who is intervening in human life and who has anthropomorphic qualities. If I am wrong, I do not believe this God would judge me and punish me for not believing in him. That sounds rather petty and arrogant to me.
I believe in whatever is--and I don't make claim to know what is, and I don't think I need to worry about defining what is. I am certain there are great forces which are beyond my understanding. I don't think any human is capable of fully understanding these forces.
I have had some amazing spiritual experiences through meditation and interaction with nature, which I am sure are equivalent to some of the experiences Christians have which lead them to their faith. I try to live my life the best I am able and to embrace beauty and goodness wherever I find it.
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Joni,
For the record, I have dear dear friends who are Catholic (which I was raised), Mormon, Pagan, atheist, agnostic & those who flaunt the Flying Spaghetti Monster. It has never once mattered or changed our love for one another.
I believed what I was taught as a child, then I found a passion in science. I was more of a Spock from Star Trek and went all logical on everyone. Evolution made sense to me, let there be light did not.
With my own children, I have let them hear both sides and make their own choices. I have not forced my beliefs on them & I never will. When I was Dx with cancer, I was told I would go through the stages of death & bargaining would be one of them.
I asked "Who will I bargain with"?
My good friend who is a Mormon told me she would bargain for me, we both laughed & it was the end of it. I take no offense when a Catholic friend tells me she lit a candle for me at mass, it shows she loves me & cares.
What personal religious beliefs a person has makes no impact on my love for them.
I am a tree hugger. There are worse things I could be.
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"How do we know that God is not a pink and purple polkadotted something that no one has described?"
Exactly! What frustrates me so much about religion is the fact that so many believe that their god and their holy book is the right one and everyone else is wrong. How do we know? Maybe there is a god, but if there is, chances are that this higher being is nothing like what any of the religions believe. Or maybe the Greeks and Romans had it right and there are many gods. Why do we think that their belief was silly but society's current belief in a single god is right?
What also frustrates me - and confuses me about the concept of religion - is the fact that there is so much intolerance and hatred and violence done in the name of religion. Is this really what (insert here the name of your religion's higher being) wants?
I accept the fact that there might be a god (or gods). I just don't know. Nobody knows, despite what some say. But what I do know is that I don't need a god or the rules of a religion to tell me how to be a good person, how to live my life in a way that is respectful of others (and I think I succeed, most of the time). I think it's a sad statement about humanity that so many people don't seem to inherently know within themselves what's the right way to live, and instead must rely on the teachings of religion in order to understand how to be a good person. Or at least, so many people don't trust that they can do this on their own, that they can make the right decisions and find the strength they need within themselves. That's sad. Personally I don't need a god to help me through difficult times; I have made it through very difficult times by relying on myself and on the love & support from family and friends. This has strengthened me as a person and strengthened my relationships with family and friends. I think I'm a better person because of the fact that I don't have blind faith; this has forced me to deal with issues within myself and that has taught me a lot.
But that's just me.
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And not having blind faith allows us to see things more clearly, IMO.
Actions do speak louder than words. I think a good example might be the fellow who recently shot Dr. Tiller (who provided abortions) in the U.S.
Organized religion has always served two purposes: control over the social mores of groups of people, and a means for individuals to believe in a continuation of their being after death. Both of those reasons have validity, but for those of us who do not believe in a "higher being", it's frustrating to be frowned upon, avoided and called nasty names. Again, I believe actions speak louder than words, so I'm quite content to call myself a non-believer. I don't mind if someone prays for me -- that's their way of showing they care. But I have no use for those who think I'm the devil incarnate for not believing as they do.
I grew up in a religious household -- prayers before every meal, church every Sunday, parents involved in the management of the church. I even became a church organist and choir director -- loved the music and still do. But it took some maturity for me to stop believing. DH was relieved; his dad was a Protestant minister and he stopped believing long before I did!
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I grew up with the Bible and church, but began to have doubts in high school. Why should I believe in something just because someone else says it is so? I require proof to believe every other thing in my life. I straddled the fence between being an agnostic and being an atheist for years until an atheist friend quipped: "An agnostic is just an atheist who won't commit." LOL
I know religion is very important to most people and I think our species is probably hard-wired to need a higher power to turn to during bad times. But, for me, the concepts of God and religion seem more likely to have been manufactured eons ago by human beings afraid of the unknown.
So, to me, it's not a matter of rejecting belief. It's simply that I personally have no faith. I require proof. And there is no proof with religion. Religion and belief in God requires faith. I'm not speaking for anyone else here. Belief or lack of same is one of the most personal topics around.
I appreciate the existence of this thread and I hope that it doesn't become a debate forum. Please stop trying to convert us. I'm 51 years old and fully capable of thinking for myself.
--CindyMN
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Hey, chumfry.
Your name reminds me of baby fish, don't ask me why. Maybe because my fish just had babies & they are called fry? Maybe because I just saw a Shark Week commercial talking about chum?
Anyhoo, I ramble.
I have heard the comment about atheists & agnostics before. I disagree. I consider myself an agnostic. I am not afraid of commitment, but, I believe in ghosts (more of an energy, not Ghostbusters) & a true atheist would not.
So, I am stuck someplace in the middle.
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I grew up Protestant but my parents became disenchanted with organized religion when I was about 7 or 8. We quit going to church, but continued to have prayer before meals. My parents still believe in God, just not religion.
I have a degree in Geology and have very strong feelings about evolution vs creation. To me it just doesn't make sense. I respect my parents beliefs and my friends' beliefs, as SoCaLisa said - it just isn't for me. I take no offense at anyone praying for me - as Lindasa said - it shows they care. I can appreciate that.
I think I posted on the worst thing someone said to you about my hairdresser and her religious intolerance. I had just found the lump and had not been diagnosed, but I was very worried. I was in the salon having my hair highlighted, when my mom called. My niece needed to get new tires on my car. She was borrowing it. They are 200 miles away and I didn't want them to know about the lump yet. After I hung up the phone, I started crying. I told my hairdresser why. I thought we were also friends not just business associates. My closest friend is very good friends with her. My hairdresser asked me what church I attended. I said none and she said :
Well, maybe that is why you have cancer. You should have put your faith in God.
Oddly enough, her pastor was going thru chemotherapy at that time. I guess he hadn't put his faith in God either. I often wonder if organized religion fosters hypocrisy.
Just my 2 cents...
C
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Church, religion, faith, spirituality, God, traditions, rituals, holy books...they are not all one and the same. One can be faithful without being religious, religious without being spiritual, God without church, church without traditions....you get the idea. God and church and all are not exclusively christian. So many possibilities and combinations and options and beliefs. In the end I suppose we are all connected in some way, even if it is that we return to the ground.
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I think Carl Sagan described us all as being made of "star stuff" from the Big Bang. (I'm probably misquoting him. He probably used a more elegant phrase. <grin>)
I know other people sometimes feel diminished when they think about the size of the cosmos and the very small part we play in it, but I feel kind of peaceful. It's an endless recycling operation. If my molecules started in the stars, maybe they'll end up back out there one day.
--CindyMN
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I love Sagan.
He also said;
"If you want to save your child from polio, you can pray or you can inoculate....Try science."
"We are like butterflies who flutter for a day and think its forever."
You are correct on the quote, "We are star stuff that has taken its destiny in its own hands."
Here is the clip.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iE9dEAx5SgwLong & boring to most....Yeah, I am a science geek, nerd, I know, I know, I know.
Live long & prosper
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is it just me, or have you guys noticed some of the worst drivers have fish on the back of the car? And not the fish with feet either.
God aside, my problem with religion is the exclusiveness and how people who are not one of them, or who are in one of their bad group are thought of and treated. I think of how all the gay mormons are treated - horrible.
Madalyn - good to see you too!
Lindasa - I had to look twice at your avatar to make sure it wasn't a picture of my cats. Very similar.
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Madalyn,
I loved the movie. Old Spock was wonderful to see( I may have screamed when he first appeared on screen.) & young Spock did a fantastic job! I think the young Bones did a amazing job along with young Scotty! Yes, way off topic. I will repair the post
GuitarGrl,
Here here. I can not tell you how many times I have been told that "I will be going straight to hell" by a God fearing person. Really? If I live a good life, love all I can, treat all living creatures with respect?? Their loving God will send me to hell because I didn't read a book, pray to him in a fancy building or because I drank coffee?
Would not a God, have bigger issues to sweat?
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gG; Your avatar could easily be a photo of Toffee, my champagne burmese! My other furball is Abby, the Abyssinian.
I know I said this before somewhere earlier on this thread, but I always remember when a close friend in Toronto moved to Texas. She is a non-believer like me. First question asked by her next-door neighbour was "What church are you joining?" She was non-plussed (I love that word!!) but knowing that if she told the truth, she would probably be shunned, she just replied that she hadn't decided. Then felt guilty because she thought that was the coward's way out.
Not saying that couldn't have happened north of the border, though....
Cheers, Linda
p.s. Ah, the English language....if you are not non-plussed, does that mean you are plussed???
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My first job out of college was in a small town in Arkansas. I answered the church question by saying I was Jewish! (A lie, but my long-distance boyfriend was Jewish...) Talk about non-plussed! LOL
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If prayer works, we would be the only posters on this site..
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I'm not an atheist but my husband is...DOn't ask me how but it has worked for us for 23 years......I have tried to convert him but to no avail......I tried for a year and gave up......I figure he will come around in his own time......I am sorry but I don't understand how anybody can NOT believe with all the miracles in the world.....I look at a baby and see a miracle....I look at a tree or a blade of grass and see a miracle.......I wonder if it goes back to the way a person is raised?....I mean were you raised an atheist or did something really bad happen to make you stop believing?......I'm not mocking you or putting you down...I am sincerely curious to know.....I myself was raised in the Christian Belief while my husband was raised agnostic but declares himself atheist.......Our daughter on the other hand is on the fence...She kinda believes and she kinda doesn't if that makes sense.....I really appreciate your patience and tolerance with my questions.....I don't mean to offend anyone......I haev always wanted to know these things and I just never asked my husand...We don't discuss religion or the lack thereof in our house.......
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hollyann,
What would happen if someone from this thread, aka "that other thread" popped into the power of prayer & said, quoting you "I am sorry but I don't understand how anybody can NOT believe" (change end of sentence to......EVOLUTION.)
Yeah, that would go over like a fart in church, sorry...couldn't help myself.
To answer your question from my point of view, let's take a blade of grass;
I see millions of years of evolution, a plant that has evolved to survive in an environment that supports & benefits from it's existence. Deer eats grass...poops grass seeds....new grass grows. Everyone is happy. Grass also serves other purposes in it's environment, like, keeping soil from washing away. The whole planet has learned/evolved to work together and/or in harmony this way.
The plants and animals that could not fit into this system died out.
I could go into further details, of just the age of the Earth or fossil fuel & how man is destroying the planet in mere decades by releasing these gases it took nature millions of years to contain BUT~ then you get into a global warming fight & most people can't grasp that global warming will cause another ice age. From there it gets political & uglier than just a religious debate.
Non-believer is a HUGE canvas, just because someone does not believe in your Jesus or your God, does not mean they do not believe.
My best friend is a Mormon, she believes drinking hot coffee or tea is a sin.
How do feel about that? Do you think a God would deny you access to the "Higher Kingdom" because you drank a cup of coffee? Really?
Since I first posted in this thread, I have got 3 PM's from girls I was close to since joining this forum, telling me they could no longer talk to me or be my friend because I didn't love Jesus.
If that is what Jesus is teaching people, I have no doubts in my non-belief.
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Oh but prayer does work. It may not be the answer we want but its God's answer. The bad things that happen are not God, it is because we have free choices and Satan is loose on this earth. God is good all the time. I have seen prayer answered time after time.
Hollyann, no one here will understand that we accept Jesus Christ as our savior by faith. All we can do is pray for the holy spirit to soften the hearts of the non-believers.
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spar2 & Hollyann - you just aren't getting it - we have no problem with your belief.
We do have a problem with people coming on to this thread and proselytizing though. As Dawn said more elegantly, but obviously too subtly, we don't go on to your threads about prayer. So please stay away from ours.
No we are not impinging on your freedom of speech or religion, we are maintaining our right to have one little corner of this site for threads that don't mention god or prayer.
Lindasa: Chaco is a Tonkinese - a breed that is half Burmese/half Siamese, but he really looks like he reverted back to Burmese. Except he talks non-stop like a Siamese. My other cat is a gray Tonk who doesn't look Burmese at all!
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hollyann - To answer your questions, I was raised in a very religious home. I went to church every Sunday and said my prayers every morning and every night. I have always been a deeply spiritual person.
Nothing bad happened to make me move away from Christianity. I did a lot of thinking and soul-searching, and I just reached a point in my life where I felt the beliefs of Christianity were too narrow. I think there is much beauty and truth in those beliefs, but I do not think that Christianity encompasses all truth.
I am far more fascinated by the teachings of Buddhism at this point in my life, but I don't think that is the one true religion either--and it does not claim to be. The teachings of Buddhism as to how to live your life are extremely compatible with the teachings of Christ. I think there are many different paths to personal enlightenment.
I think prayer can be very powerful--not because there is somebody out there who is answering our prayers--but because it helps us access our own focus, inner strength and deep connection to life and goodness.
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Speaking of WWJD: As I recall from my Christian upbringing, Jesus preached tolerance -- for those who believe in a supreme "being", as well as for those who do not. It's unfortunate that too many people who profess to be Christian (and so many who have other religious beliefs) do not include that teaching in their behaviours with others. My father never called himself a Christian -- he always said, with great humility, that he was trying to follow Jesus' teachings. And believe me, he did. I too, believe in the precepts -- the golden rule etc. -- but I cannot believe in a supreme being, although I understand why others do.
Lucy, I know that you asked the question with honesty and without prejudice. Thank you for that
.Hugs, Linda
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Reading this thread has been wonderful! Many of you reflect my godless world view and make it funny at the same time so thanks.
I agree many questions are sincere and also agree that more proselytizing and hate mail is bad form but seems part of the organized religious mind set, especially in the last decade when religion was used to bludgeon people into voting a certain way. The remnants of that will be with us for a while. I've always thought that particular manipulation of well meaning people abhorent which leads me to wonder if these targeted folks just don't care or if they are stupid or, maybe, just that easy to manipulate.
Nothing bad ever happened to me - well, there have been plenty of health issues but I blame most of that on genes and chance - but I did start questioning blind adherence to my parents church's rules at 13 when I was given a demonstration of Christianity as practiced by our parish priest. He wouldn't visit my recently hospitalized and very devout Mom without a substantial donation which my father was unable to afford, having just paid for my mother's health care. My thoughts about it progressed from there and logic is at least a part of it.
Yes, I do like Spock, the Star Trek movie and I love science fiction.
Linda0 -
Thank you ladies for your explanations.....I wasn't askinmg to be mean I genuinely didn't understand but after reading your posts I think I get it now......I mean I can see things from both sides......I definitely DO NOT hate anyone who does not believe.....Just because I believe does not mean others have to.......That is an individual choice...I choose to believe even though I have been dealt some really bad crap in my life I still choose to believe in Jesus and God....That being said I DO NOT try to convert any of my friends who do not believe......It was never my intention to hurt anyone's feelings or to say that you are wrong.....Who am I to say you are wrong?.....You could be right.....I don't know.....All I do know is that I am very tolerant of many people and atheists and agnostics are among those I tolerate......I do not however tolerate down right religious "cults" who keep their parishioners isolated...I didn't mean for anyone to feel questioned and obligated to explain......I truly appreciate all your responses and helping me to understand a littel better......I believe that if we all understood each other better than we would all get along a whole lot better.........I wish you all peace and happiness and most of all good health........
61linda that wasn't very Christian of your parish priest..That was downright GREED!.....It is people like him that give religion a bad name.............I am sorry you ahd that experience..........
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Hi I am new to this thread and I wish I had found it a few months ago.it's great! I've only read the first couple and last pages, but its all so interesting to me. I was raised without religon, but my parents both were raised church goers- but they didn't agree on which church to go to so we never really went. I was never baptized- I remember one of my boyfriend's moms found that out and was horrified and wanted to baptize me on the spot!
so I was never fed dogma at an early age and alowed to form my own opinions. I consider myself a spiritual person and I believe there is a force within all of us that joins us together, one that we can tap into if we pay attention. I have a scientific logical background / thought process,but at the same time, I let my "gut" tell me what to do.
Organized religon has always seemed very pointless to me. It's just always seemed like a man-made construction- a friend of mine had a bumper sticker that said "and man created god in his own image..." I think the fellowship that people experience as being part of a church is good- just like the fellowship I experience from coming to this site and sharing with others going through bc has been a positive force in my life.
One time I explained my spiritual beliefs to a atheist friend when he asked and he told me I believed in "The Force" from Star Wars! I read a book called "the Field" that talks about the idea there is a vast energy field that permeates everything and connects everything and one. Really fascinating!
I have had a lot of people tell me they are praying for me too- I just say thank you. I do believe that prayer is valuable and powerful, but I don't think its because there's a god behind it, I think its because the very asking for a particular thing- some one's healing, well being, etc is powerful.
I guess I sorta believe in the idea of reincarnation- but I don't really know. I feel like this lifetime or, any lifetime is an oppourtunity to learn and love and be loved and experience as much as possible. When I was first dx, I viewed this as a oppourtunity (or tried to). I was overcome by the outpouring of support from those around me, I tried to recognize that on some level, I wanted this to happen- to have something happen to kick me in the butt and make me take better care of myself. During the later half of chemo I have to say it was very hard to feel like this has been a positive experience. If I chose on some subconsisous level to expereince this- I'd like to smack my subconsious around a little! It sucks!
But like it or not- bc is a part of my journey through life. My DH uses the phrase "make lemonade" all the time.
Folks who "believe" stopping in are welcome as long as they don't attack- I like to think that coming and reading thoughts of those who see things differently might be illuminating for them?
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bump
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Faith= believe in yourself first and whatever else you find comfort in?? It varies with each individual. No right or wrong way. We each have unique and different needs, reaction, coping skills. Reach out and don't suffer. People need to feel needed too........!
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