Is anyone else an atheist with BC besides me?
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Sorry, London!
We didn't do it!!
Lisa, I am not familiar with Ayn Rand.
Cindy, I would NEVER be so arrogant to assume my beliefs were superior enough to try to convert or correct others.
You do not have to worry about me thumping A Brief History of Time any place but here.
Konakat, WHAT are you eating in your picture? I am starved!
I have a friend who always jokes about all the stuff we are taking to hell with us....booze & smokes & rock&roll....it is always in fun, so far she has one hell of a party planned.
My best friend is a Mormon & she lives on the straight & narrow. She says she is going to The Higher Kingdom, she won't even drink tea!! I told her she is gonna be very lonely up there by herself. She took no offense & we laughed until we cried.
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I have found that with friends who really need religion., we simple agree to disagree and leave it at that...if they want to pray for me...who gives a hoot..again, makes them happier...
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I'm starting to wonder if these people get X number of converts they get a toaster oven...?
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good one Sige
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Ladies, I couldn't help to post this.
Meet some of my non-human babies...
Left to right...
Anubis, Qadesh & Gremalkin
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They are beautiful! Are they related to each other? I have two cats (or perhaps they have me <grin>). Buster is a regular tabby while Rufus is a gorgeous orange fluff-ball. There's a recent photo on Cute Overload (an excellent site to improve anyone's mood) that looks just like Rufus, if I could ever have gotten a hand-knitted baby sweater onto him! LOLOLOLOL
--CindyMN
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No, They are not related.
I just have a weakness for strays.
I have 5 cats....or like you said, they have me
I also have a retired milatary K-9 who doesn't eat the cats out of her love for me.
My poor daughter's rabbit was another matter....
Oh! Those cats did not look happy to be in the sweater!
The look on the orange tabby's face is classic cat arrogance
I am off to start dinner & stress over tomorrow's bone scans & other various poking.
Talk soon
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Rum cake! Not my favourite, but if it has icing on it I'll eat it!!
And, Oh Renee -- would you and your ilk please stop!! Such prejudice is not welcome. And no, my soul isn't lost, I don't have one!! I have a brain!! So stop -- it is rude, rude, rude.
I had a girlfriend who was a born again Christian. We agreed to respect each other's beliefs and not discuss it. I was even her Maid of Honour at her wedding. She was a lovely person and it was a wonderful friendship, regardless of her and my differences. It is the person inside that makes them good or bad, how they treat others. It's Christians that get all preachy that give Christians a bad name. Christians don't lay claim to "god", no one does, and to think you do is very, very small minded.
Cats! I love my fur-bearing children. Unfortunately one died in Feb. Her sister (real litter mate) has had kidney disease for 2 years -- I give her 150cc of ringers solution with an IV, 3x a week. I think of her every time I get pricked with the needle. But she's doing well, quite kittenish for an 18 year old gal!
Edited to add: Sorry for letting my buttons get pushed. Sigh...you just need to breathe on the intolerance/prejudice one to get me going. Any, back to cats, cake, and good books. Atlas Shrugged is on my long booklist -- I'll get it on my visit to the library this week.
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Iisa--"Atlas Shrugged" may have been the best book ever written !!!
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Junie, back in 1962..almost all the gals
in my dorm read that..we formed an Ayn Rand fan club..
" Who is John Galt??"
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I think Atlas Shrugged is a ridiculous book. Very poorly written as literature. It seemed to be mostly an attempt to illustrate a philosophical/political viewpoint through a superficial story.
When I saw the documentary "Who Killed the Electric Car?" I thought of that book. It is a very similar story--innovation being squelched--but it was big business (oil companies) doing the squelching, not Ayn's villains.
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Kate, it is a tedious book, but taken in the times she described..it was a good thought provoking novel...I enjoyed it
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Good grief, I go away for an afternoon (was at the onc's -- I'm NED!!!) and look what happens! Now folks, you have to remember that an important role for those who profess the Christian faith is to "spread the word" and help save souls. I loved Patoo's contribution, just as I loved Chumfry's poem in response, but as for the others who have visited us, well, I might just have to start using the "ignore" button. As for getting through tx, my dh, family, friends, med professionals and my own inner strength got me through it. I'm sure that's true for you as well.
I read all of Ayn Rand's books in high school and remember feeling very "disturbed" (best word I can think of) after a reading session. Think I was too young to really absorb her philosophy, but as I got older, I rejected it vehemently. But that's just me and MHO.
Hugs to you all! Linda
p.s. love your kitty pics, Dawnn!
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It is definitely thought-provoking, and I think it leads to some interesting discussions. My son had to read it in high school, so I read it along with him. We had some good discussions. He noticed the comparison to "Who Killed the Electric Car?" as well.
While I was reading it, I was aware that the book has become very popular among some rightwingers--so the political associations probably made me react to it a little more negatively. I thought some of the assertions about who was squelching whom were just downright ridiculous.
But I don't want to start a political discussion here. Us atheists have enough going on trying to claim our right to belong to the human race.
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Wow! This thread has mutated into a book review club! Can we go back to the original discussion, minus the well-intentioned conversion sermons?
But, must add that there is no definitive answer for John Galt--but, he seems to be alive and well yet today!
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OK -- I have a question for those who don't believe in an afterlife, i.e., me (or question some sort of continued existence). I get sad about it all being over eventually -- that there isn't something else. I don't know how to put this sadness or question to rest. I do like my idea of just going back to the earth (i.e., degrading in the soil - sorry if this grosses anyone out) and that it is nice. But still...it's sad when it all ends. Do others here have these thoughts, and how do you deal with them. BTW -- If I get a single "pray to god or jesus" response here I may go ballistic!!!
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Elizabeth, I think your question is the hardest one with which to come to terms. After all, an afterlife is the basis of the world's major religions. But, I think it is simply our "ego" (that which makes me, ME) that finds it difficult to "believe" that once we're dead, our ME is gone as well.
Because of that, I used to think that reincarnation made the most sense-- in other words, my spirit (for want of a better word) is something that cannot be destroyed. But my logical ME says no. Then again, I don't know!!
It would be a lot more comfortable to believe that there is a heaven, and that I will meet my parents and my sister there. But my logical mind keeps getting in the way!!! As long as I am alive, they continue to "live" in my thoughts.
Not much help to you, but you're not alone in your thoughts ....
Hugs, Linda
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Elizabeth,
Life is so short, we live for only a moment in time.
First~
The process of modern burial, embalming & such, introduces thousands of tons of steel & toxins into the ground every year. Being reduced to carbon and just returned to the Earth, to nourish and bring life to a tree or a coral reef seems a better way to go for me.
Sure it is sad, the thought of closing my eyes & just being gone from this beautiful place. Death comes to us all, does it not? Living well, dying well, those things are our legacy.
Maybe it is this fear of death, the sadness of it, that fuels the thoughts of a cloud filled heaven?
Bright lights with welcoming loved ones?
George Carlin had great views on this, speaking of the deceased looking down on us...like they have nothing better to do in heaven?
The mental consciousness, we have as humans, knowing we are ill & we may die, is that exclusive to our species? My dog certainly showed no signs of knowing he was ill with cancer & wagged his tail happy-go-lucky until his last moment.
But, awwwwww, then there are elephants, who must know death is coming & walk mile after mile to die in the graveyards of their ancestors. They also hold and mourn the dead for days, leaving only when hunger is overwhelming.
I personally grieve more for the sadness of those I will leave behind, than my own death.
I fear not having the strength to die with dignity like my father did, not crying out in pain & finding strength to comfort those at my bedside.
We are star stuffs & we will go on forever in our own ways. I have no answers regarding souls or spirits. I have seen things in this world I can not explain, that is why I can not proclaim to be an atheist & I am stuck in the middle with agnostic.
I ramble & offer no answer to your question. I too feel the sadness, to reach to religion & ask a god for love and forgiveness after 23 years of not believing seems cowardly to me.
They say many are "born again" when faced with their own mortality. Not me, I will live on in the lives of those who come after me. My children, my children's children...
For those of you with no children, you will live on in the hearts of those who love you & remember you each day. Don't be sad, Elizabeth. Your life has great meaning.
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HELLO!!!!!!! I have been surfing around breastcancer.org for several months and just found this board today, by chance. I'm so excited. I am not religious and often feel so very alone in that. It's great to find you all.
I believe there is more to this world and existence than we can possibly fathom. I am really not comfortable with the notion that any of that can be pinpointed or defined and am skeptical of those who lay claim to such knowledge.
I love the idea of God and thinking about that is a comfort but I never kid myself that I will ever know what that is any more than the feeling I have when I think of it.
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Elizabeth, I feel the same way you do. And the perfect word for it is "sad." I don't think I'm afraid or angry. Just really, really sad. And not wailing and gnashing of teeth. Just slow, sad tears. We may be the only species to know that we will end someday. You can see that as a gift or as a curse. On the whole, I think it is a gift because I think it helps us appreciate what we have and what we are and what we can do for each other.
I'm dancing with NED and have been for a while, so I don't feel Death is near. (Although I could always get hit by a bus!) But I hope that when my time comes, I can look back and say: "Look at all the people I helped. Look at all the lives I touched. All in all, it was a good life and I spent it well. I laughed a lot. I even ate cake."
(Of course, I'm crying now as I write this but tears are part of living.)
Speaking of Death, has any of you read Neal Gaiman's graphic novels, featuring the Sandman? One of the characters is Death, portrayed as a perky little Goth girl. It makes me smile.
--CindyMN
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Hello Everyone,
Before I begin I want to say Iam a Christian. I do not believe in any religion or am religious. Religion comes in all sorts of man made rules and laws traditions. Religion is man made and man made things are flawed. After saying that I do believe in God. That there was a creator who created a perfect world. The big bang theory is more far fetched to believe (which science cannot prove ) than believing that there is a Creator. Life is to perfect and and to awsome to think that all life came from 1 cell and evolved. Why are we not still evolving? Why are monkeys not human by now? Why have humans always looked like humans? The Universe is still a mystery. I could ask a million question--Why this or that?
I think everyone needs to start at the beginning and ask how the world, universe and life was formed? Then there is what do you believe? Everyone has free will and should be respected. Creation or Evolution?
But for those who don't believe that the Bible is inspired by God. Why? You have a choice. You can either believe that the Bible was inspired by God so that we may know Him, and believe everything it says or believe that none of it is true. If there is a God who created the universe don't you think that he could inspire the Bible which has survived thousands of years even though many have tried to destroy it. What other book on earth has done that? It could only happen if God wanted it to happen.
Once you give the Bible a fair shake and think about the authors of it and ask. How could men and women (who couldn't possibly know or even imagine what the world would be like now) who lived over 2000 years ago write a book with such accuracy and knowledge even imagine what to write or how to write it with such detail and truth. It is truly amazing when you think about it. The Bible has many prophesy's in the Old Testament and the New Testiment that are proven fact. It never changes. If a mere human wrote it how could they be 100% right all the time? If people lived the way God intended the world would be a better place. The Bible is a blueprint for life so that we may know Gods will.
If you don't believe that the Bible is true than how could you believe what is in it? The sad thing to me is that most people have not even studied where it came from or read what is in it to really make an informed decision on what they believe. Once you believe that than you could accept what is says and believe that Jesus is God made human to have a relationship with us. But again that is your choice.
For those who have a relationship with Him we know the peace and the miracles and strength and knowledge we get from Him. It is a gift to us. It is something that is hard to explain but it is wonderful. We are only excited to share it because so many of you's sound lost and don't know what to believe in except yourself. I have found that Iam not invincable. That Iam weak and my life is like a vapor. Here today and can be gone tomorrow. I always trust in the Lord and He does see me thru everything evertime. He is Awsome!! I know He is real because I know because I know because I know. I feel Him. Iam not perfect and I have alot of flaws but God loves me anyways. He cares for me and will take care of me even in death and I know where Iam going and that is the kind of peace that the big bang can never give you! I have had many many answered prayers by trusting Him and not my own understanding. When you feel that kind of peace and love it is only natural to be excited and want to share it with others. But there is many who will never even consider getting to know Him and that is very sad to me. I don't know how I would get thru a day let alone life without Him.
Just like with breast cancer. We did our research to find the right answers to the right treatments. I doubt that many of you's (not all) even read or studied The Bible, where it came from how it was written, what it actually says. I know in my own family of church going catholics (Iam not catholic) don't even know what the Bible says because they never read it. My dad who has gone to church his whole life and is 87 yrs old is just now learning what it says.
It is sad to me that people are missing out on the wonder of God. That is why us Christians want to share with people because many don't even know why they don't believe or they were taught some man made rules and regulations that are not even in the Bible that turned them off to what the Bible really says.
Sorry I came on your thread but it amazes me to learn how others believe and why they believe it. I find it interesting. Iam not judging anyone that it Gods job. And your belief is between you and Him. But if you want to find peace, talk to Him about it and He will show you the way.
I hope everyone has a great day-- Geri
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Um, Geri...could you like butt out of our thread? Trust me, we've all made informed decisions about what we choose to believe or disbelieve. Do you think hearing all this from one more person will cause me to slap my forehead and say, "Of course! I just need to believe in God!"
Please assume that I'm at least as intelligent as you are, and fully capable of making decisions for myself.
I appreciate your world view and everything. But please stop cramming it down my throat.
Thanks.
--CindyMN
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A very narrow world view, IMO! Perhaps Geri should start reading some other stuff -- try paleontology, archaeology, astronomy for starters.
My dh's aunt answered the door one day and shortly thereafter joined a "religious cult" (I won't mention which one!!!). My MIL blamed it on menopause, but I suspect it was probably empty nest syndrome and a boring husband. When her adult son started questioning it his mother told him if he didn't believe/practice this particular religion, he would be ex-communicated from the family. Well, his family was more important so he gave in. Extended family do not allow this particular branch to even discuss their religion at family events, mostly because it would be akin to talking to a wall.
Until about the age of 6, I believed in Santa Claus......
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You know, that was the one thing I worried most about when I told my born-again Mom and sister, that I would get excommunicated from their lives. Luckily that didn't happen. I have many atheist friends, but most of my friends believe in God. But like Elisabeth said, we agree to disagree. It's a simple matter of respect. They respect my choices and I respect theirs.
--CindyMN
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Geri - It amazes me that you believe what you believe as well. I think many Christians believe as they do because it is the culturally acceptable thing for them to do--not because they have done any real researching and thinking for themselves.
And it amazes me that so many Christians assume that those of us who don't believe as they do haven't heard the "good news" or read the Bible. Believe me, you can't live in this country without having heard it many, many, many, many times..... And I have read the Bible.
The difference between you and me is that I don't feel compelled to convince you to believe as I do. As long as you don't infringe upon the rights of others, then believe and live as your life as you see fit. I respect your choices. I have no problem with what you believe. I have a problem with those Christians (and there are quite a few) who are smug and arrogant and feel it is their job to tell me what to believe.
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Geri:
You said: But for those who don't believe that the Bible is inspired by God. Why? You have a choice. You can either believe that the Bible was inspired by God so that we may know Him, and believe everything it says or believe that none of it is true. If there is a God who created the universe don't you think that he could inspire the Bible which has survived thousands of years even though many have tried to destroy it. What other book on earth has done that? It could only happen if God wanted it to happen.
You hit the nail on the head dear...we have a choice. I worship nature...trees...rocks...plants...all of which have been here since the beginning of time, much earlier than your bible, and will be here much longer than any of us at the rate we are going.
The only power I see in your bible is that more people have been killed in the name your bible than any other book in existence.
I do not negate your right to choose your belief in your god; please do not negate my right to choose to believe in whatever I believe in, because even though you come here with "good intentions" that is exactly what you are doing.
You said: Just like with breast cancer. We did our research to find the right answers to the right treatments.
You're right about that as well...I bet that if you took a poll of women with similar dx's you would find that they have not all chosen the same tx...and not one of them would have made a wrong choice, for them.
You said: It is sad to me that people are missing out on the wonder of God. That is why us Christians want to share with people because many don't even know why they don't believe or they were taught some man made rules and regulations that are not even in the Bible that turned them off to what the Bible really says.
Do you think wonder is only found in your god? Wonder is found everywhere, you just have to look.
You said: Sorry I came on your thread but it amazes me to learn how others believe and why they believe it.
Nope, don't think you are sorry. And as for the amazement...I can only speak for myself when I say I am amazed that people like you think that yours is the only way...how narrow minded and ignorant, even when your message is candy-coated in loving words.
To my non-christian friends...I am sorry, but I am so tired of people trying to cram their beliefs down my throat in the name of love.
Bright blessings,
Sige
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Geri -- the Bible is far from a great piece of literature. A nice mix of history and fantasy. Have you heard of Homer's Iliad -- circa 700BC, (but there still is a lot a debate about that date, when the oral tradition was written down)? I don't see any difference between the Bible and the Iliad. What about Thucydides, circa 500BC. When I studied his Peloponnesian Wars we spent a lot of time drawing parallels to modern society. Are these the words of god too?
A funny thing about words, the word for virgin is the same as young girl. It's such a more "magical" impact to call Mary a virgin that a young girl. And, yes, I read all of these in Classical Greek -- not the bastardized English versions.
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I am an atheist.
I don't care who inspired the Bible because I simply don't.
I don't care if things that the Bible says are true or not because I have absolute zero interest.
(For the record, yes I have read the Bible many times as my mother is a Christian.)
I don't care if Christians get more blessings than those like us who don't believe in God do because I see no point comparing one's life to someone else's.
I don't care if Christians feel sorry for me for not knowing their greatest Lord because I am just happy with my life and the way I live it.I don't believe in God at all, however I do know peace, see miracles and have strength and knowledge.
I don't believe in God at all, however my life is still precious.
I don't believe in God at all, however I am not a poor person.Just because I don't believe in God does not mean in any way that I am missing out on anything that enriches my life.
Maybe I am missing out on the wonder of God but I don't need it in the first place.
I find it really pointless to spend my time on anything that I have absolute no interest in.If something good happens to me, yes I will be pretty excited and try to share it with others.
But what I will do is "share".
I will never tell them to do what I do
nor will I ever pity them for not knowing what I know
as long as they are happy with what they do and their lives.
Oh and please don't say that your God will love me or bless me even if I have no faith in him
because simply I don't need it in my life.
Just accept the fact that there are people who are completely different than you.
By the way, these are my babies. (The first one is Toto and the next is Kiki.)
Hugs,
Fumi
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YearoftheHat -- I love your name!!!!!!!
Lisa, Dawnn, Cindy -- thank-you for your posts. Yeah, I'm in a woe-is-me mood. I'm sitting here wondering about what I've done, what I haven't. A friend sent me a long email ages ago listing the cool things I've done -- at the time I freaked -- it was more like an eulogy! There's my sadness that I never had children. But I did have cats! I gave lots of cats a very good life. Sometimes it would be nice to not be aware of death, only the annoyance that it's harder to hop onto the couch lately.
When I was young I used to joke that if I was ever terminal I would go out into the ocean and take a harpoon for a whale. I thought it would be a noble ending, I still do. I've always loved to dive and snorkle -- I've always wanted to cage dive with great whites, but being terminal I've thought, forget the cage and be a yummy dinner for a shark! But that would hurt too much, not quick enough. I've done some stuff that has ended up in the National Library of Canada (not really a hard thing to do, I admit!!), so it's permanent, but it has little meaning for me, on a personal level. I want to do something that has meaning. I hope I find it before time runs out. Maybe it will only be me paddling around my mom's pool rescuing bugs from drowning.
A lot of my thoughts revolve around non-human things. If there is a god, he made a big mistake in humans -- we've done some great things, but so many more horrible things. We just can't live in harmony with the rest of the inhabitants of this planet. I think we're the biggest screw-up. Nature was much more in balance before we became the top predator in intellect and ability.
Oh yeah -- re. whales -- I saw this funny ad in Australia for bequests. It said something like, "You should give to Greenpeace because you might come back as a whale".
So, I've rambled. But I appreciate the audience here -- it's so comforting that I can express my deepest thoughts here. Thank-you.
Elizabeth
xoxoxo
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Chumfry-First of all I did apologize for coming on your thread which I didn't know belonged to you's alone. Many times I go on other threads that don't pertain to me personally so that I could learn from others. Once again Iam surprised at the anger of others with different beliefs. Actually telling me to butt out. Also thank you for referring to me as intelligient. I never meant to imply that I was smarter than anybody but if that is what you think - thanks. When I said that, I said MOST people, which is a true fact.
lindasa-Ido not have a narrow world view, it is quite the opposite. I do study paleontology, archaeology and astronomy and history- for starters. That is how. I learned the Bible is factual and find it so interesting! I also said that I do not believe in a religion or man made rules. Such as a cult. there are many deceivers out there that is why you must be very careful and learn as much as you can. I never told you WHAT to believe I said we all have a free choice to believe what we want. The anger amazes me. What I wrote is not how you are taking it.
chumfry- I don't know about your mom or your sisters or about being excommunicated. God loves everybody and He is the judge. I repect how you feel and it is your choice-not a problem! Believe what you want to!
kate101-We live in America where we have freedom of choice (so far) . And our founding fathers were christians and proceeded to make a great country for all-even non christians. I do get offended when my dd cannot pray in a public school or people trash and steal nativity sets, or they want to take IN God We Trust off our currency. Things that made our country great and decent with morals. I think my rights as a christian has been infringed upon. The list goes on and on and I realize that in our day and age christianity is less and less tolerated and there are many who want to wipe it off the face of the earth. The good news is that God Is In Control!
Sige-I DID SAY we all have a choice. Why get so mad??? If you want to put your faith in a rock go ahead. I truly hope it brings you peace and assurance of life everlasting. I really do!! Iam not trying to convert anyone!! Iwas just sharing my thoughts and raising some questions. So far I have not heard any concrete answers to any of them. Just alot of angry women! You can't even accept an apology! WOW!
I won't even apologize to anyone if you took my post the wrong way since no one believes me or wants to hear it anyways. I just wanted to set the record straight and clear up a few things. Can I do that on your thread? I do not like people putting words in my mouth. Geri
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