Is anyone else an atheist with BC besides me?
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Analemma, thanks for informing us about Paul Kurtz' article. I couldn't agree with him more!
Thankfully, my country (Canada) is becoming more secular, and in due time I feel sure the U.S. will too. It's taken several generations for the Europeans to evolve from the religion that dominated each of their countries, and it will take North Americans as much time.
I come from a strong protestant background, and had many debates with my father about the value of a religious upbringing and belief in God. His answer was always "You do not have to believe in God or Jesus Christ, but I support our church because it seems to be the best vehicle for teaching ethical and moral values." I guess he felt that, since those things aren't taught in school, the church/synagogue/mosque (or whatever) serves that particular purpose. Interestingly, he was the most ethical person I've known, and thus the best teacher....
Perhaps if our schools did provide required courses in ethics, perhaps many could let go of their dependence on the God-myth, and their insistence that THEIR beliefs and behaviours are the only acceptable ones. Then again, belief in God seems all wrapped up in the belief of an afterlife, and most humans aren't quite ready to give that up.
Just my thoughts.
Linda
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Ann - it's so tough to break with a family member. My DH hasn't spoken to some of his siblings in years, either. I am on good terms with mine but live hundreds of miles apart and don't see them often - maybe that's why!
Linda, the teaching of ethics in public schools is so very far in the future that I can't even imagine it! I can imagine it happening in a secular society, but if a teacher were even to let a hint go out that s/he didn't believe in God, they would be hung out to dry! Look at what a scandal it was in North Carolina when Liddy Dole started the rumor that her opponent was atheist! It was perceived as such a horrible thing to say that Liddy Dole got voted out for saying it. But the opponent (sorry I can't think of the name) felt obligated to prove over and over again that she was a fine, "god-fearin' " woman, member of the church, etc. We have a long way to go before secularity isn't an automatic prohibition from public work.
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Yes, I think it's just revolting that those running for office have to declare their "faith". But that won't change until "In God we Trust" is removed from your dollar bills!
But isn't it a shame that the very most important life lessons we need to learn are not part of any school curriculum?
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I'm an atheist and often loathe the religious wishes sent my way. Sometimes they do come from a warm heart and I mentally edit out the religious bits, but so many times they are dripping with Christian superiority. Why is it so often that being religious is associated with this one religion? What about the many other faiths? Just a peeve...
As a Canadian living in the US -- I find the culture so different with respect to religion (among other things). In Canada, being an atheist has been a non-issue for me. The US is much more religious, especially Christian, and out-spoken at that. Funny the US advocates the separation of the church and state and I've never seen the two so closely interwoven than they are here!
(Oops, 2 grammatical edits!)
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When I was in school, the Pledge of Allegiance did not include the
words "under God", now whenever I say it I still don't include it...
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fellow atheist here. also i am dubious of chemo and radiation, the Big Gods, but i am going to have treatment because i have two sons who clearly mean more to me than life itself.
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Hey, I remember when I was in Brownies (grade 2?) and the brownie pledge of allegiance was to god, the Queen, and my country. I refused to say "god". I was cajolled into saying it -- but I sure was't happy about it.
In high school, the day always started with the lord's prayer and "O, Canada" where everyone had to stand up. I had one forward thinking teacher that said you do not need to stand for the prayer unless you choose to. Interestingly no one stood. We did for the national anthem though. This was in the '70's -- if you are curious when...
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There's a new thread about bible study that I saw, it's unsettling because when it was introduced it talked about wanting to study just Christianity and not religions that worshipped "false gods." Does that mean like Zeus or Apollo?
I kind of like Thor, myself. No pansies, those "false gods!" 0 -
Just my 2 cents here. Yes, I believe in God, and my beliefs come from personal experience and not from organized religeon. But that is a long story so won't go there.
I don't ask God to heal me. It really, really irritates me when people think I should pray for healing and if I don't, then I don't have enough faith.
I ask for strength and peace to endure what is to come. I just want to be at peace within myself and don't want to be alone.
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Strength and peace, yes, indeed.
Nobody gets out of here alive. The god-fearing and the godless sicken and die at just about the same rate, I believe, though I've never seen proof. Maybe I should apply for a government grant to study it.
As far as praying for healing, I figure if there's an omniscient and omnipotent God (I don't believe there is) that I should be humble and respectful enough to not be telling him what his business is. I've read some of those prayer threads and they get pretty bossy, telling God what he should and shouldn't do. I can't even tell my husband what to do without him getting huffy.
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Ouch - I just saw that bible study thread. This is a woman with a philosophy that starts wars & doesn't let them ever end.
One of my main problems with organized religion is their exclusivity policy. We are right - every one else is wrong. Two friends who are "religious" are in a congregation that is splitting from the Episcopal church because of the stance on gay ministers. So where is that christian charity in all that?
I also love people who can call other people's religious stories "mythology," while theirs is branded the truth. Guess I'm just in a mood to rant today.
The problem with being a-religious is feeling left out - I hate this time of year. Many years ago I had two other outsiders working for me - one a Hindu, one a Jehovah's Witness. The three of us enjoyed not going to the Christmas party together.
And Liz - I also remember when they changed the pledge. Since I didn't understand the difference, I just repeated what I had to. When I was around the same age, one of my friends was making fun of her brother. "He believes in Santa Claus instead of god," she said. Didn't see the point of that statement either - Santa was a much more likeable character!
susan
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Another fresh and funny perspective by the irreverent. Right on, Layne, and a Happy Winter Solstice to you too.
Regards,
Sandra Ortiz
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That's it - I'm a lurker - I didn't know what it was called but I read this thread every time I come on and and have only posted a couple times...I cannot be as funny and articulate as all of you so let me just ask if it's okay to lurk, agree in my head (I sit here nodding) and laugh because my husband will not be bossed either w/o the big huff AND my personal most favorite god is the traffic god who frequently clears up jams and makes sure lights are green for me when I'm in a hurry!
Thanks to all of you - feeling belonged (is that a word?) and laughing, both very, very good things!
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A great big hug and warm welcome to Joan, the funny AND articulate lurker! Belonging and laughing -- excellent!
Linda
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Susan, this is a great time of year to be non-religious. The winter solstice holiday traditions were around hundreds, maybe thousands of years before Christianity! When the Romans came to Britain with Alexander the Great, the pagan religions (earth centered) already had the winter solstice festival in place. The Romans decided to celebrate their big holidays on Winter Solstice and just after the spring equinox, because the holiday traditions were already in place in those times.
Lighted evergreen tree - predates Christianity. Holly, Ivy, again. The evergreen wreath represents the cirlcle of the year. The lights represent the return of the sun at the darkest time of the year. the sun is at the bottom of the analemma (see my avatar) and soon will be coming back up toward longer days. We celebrate Yule, not Christmas. I send Solstice cards, if you can believe it, they are available!
And then Easter! The festival of Oestre, goddess of fertility, who is represented by the rabbit! The word even has the same Latin base as estrogen! Did you ever wonder why the date changes from year to year. It's the first Sunday after the first full moon, after the Spring Equinox. Does that sound like a Christian holiday?
I get so irritated when Christians insist that December 25 was the actual birth of Jesus, or that the date of Easter was his resurrection. "And there were in the same fields, shepherds abiding in the fields, keeping watch over their flocks by night." That means it was lambing season, early spring, not the dead of winter!
I could go on..... but I can get pretty boring about this stuff.
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Just found this thread and its fascinating. Analemma--- Interesting to see how many christian holidays and rituals have basis in pre christian culture! Please feel free to go on and bore me
. Its a shame that religion and church and faith etc can be overtaken by those (who may mean well) but become so rigid and narrow in their practice and intrepretations; so uninviting and exclusive rather than welcoming ALL and inclusive. So much ends up happening in the name of God, church, religion, organized religion that seems so counter to the original--do not harm, treat others as you would have others treat yourself. Such a shame.Questions (not intending to insult or offend..just curious and interested in learning):
Does anyone here "pray" without focusing on "prayer to God"? Just putting thoughts, wishes, hopes into words?
I understand the not believing in God part, but is there belief in a universal spirit/force etc?
Hoping today is a good day for all...Elaine
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Hi Elaine,
I find myself thanking the great unknown for a beautiful sunset or rainbow. I was raised catholic, but do not feel religious. There is too much contradiction and hypocrisy. Your post reflects my own views on the subject. Well put. How old does a cult have to be to be considered a religion?
Carol(AZ)
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Is it organized religion and church rituals/judgements/rules that are troublesome?
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Speaking of cults....a retired Anglican (Episcopalian) priest in Toronto by the name of Tom Harpur recently wrote a book called "The Pagan Christ". He had noted that the Christ story bears a very strong resemblance to the ancient Egyptian story of the god Horus, whose mother was Isis. He also goes on to explain how the Christian religion, and the Jesus story, actually "took hold" at the time of Emperor Constantine circa 300AD. Basically, Constantine was tired of all the "gods" being worshipped in farflung parts of the Roman empire, and decreed "This is what we all will now believe", and consequently put to death any who didn't go along with his way of thinking.
I haven't read the book, but have seen a documentary on it. CULT is the word!
I think what ticks me off the most is the self-righteous feeling of Christians that one lacks either ethics or morals if one doesn't believe as they do. A good friend moved some years ago to Dallas. She wasn't a churchgoer but the first thing her new neighbour asked her was "What church are you joining?" She was floored -- that just doesn't happen north of the 49th. She instinctively knew that her neighbour would think much less of her if she said she had no plans to join a church.
Linda(CDA)
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Linda, I grew up in the Bible Belt myself (S.C.), so I do know of what you speak!!!
I spent the afternoon decorating for the Winter Solstice! I cut fresh evergreen boughs and made a wreath to symbolize the circular motion of the solar system and all its components, and the circle of friendship and human relationships. I made a swag of evergreen with red holly berries in celebration of the false god Saturn, god of agriculture (actually I just found this out in this link - I just like the red berries!) The turn of the seasons and the return of the sun after the winter solstice is an undeniable scientific fact - and all ancient cultures in the Northern Hemisphere developed a festival and mythology around this time of year, because it meant that daylight was returning, they could look toward the spring when plants would grow again.
http://www.candlegrove.com/solstice.html
http://landscaping.about.com/cs/winterlandscaping1/a/holly_trees.htm
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Winter Solstice celebration traditions:
http://www.circlesanctuary.org/pholidays/SolsticePlanningGuide.html
We do burn a Yule log, and keep remnants of the old log to burn the next year. We do it outdoors, though, because we don't have a fireplace inside, just a wood stove. It's a kind of combination celebration for celebrating the turning of the year, New Years resolutions, the return of the sun, longer days, etc. This year we will celebrate with our family on Saturday the 27th, though actual Solstice is a week earlier. That's when the family can all get together.
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What other days or events to you celebrate or observe? Is there a word for what you believe or practice (if that is appropriate). I have been struggling with a lot of "organized reglion" and "church" rituals, expectations, judgements...I think I've had enough of the nonsense. Yet I feel a pull towards some basic universal presence. Not quite sure what it is...doing a lot of exploring.
Thanks for letting me work it thru and ask questions of you all.
Elaine
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Most of the seasonal holidays are really pagan based, though that word has gotten a really bad rap ("devil worshipper"). And most Wiccans consider themselves pagan, also, and celebrate the eight sabbats of the year - the solstices, equinoxes, and the four festivals in between. But I don't believe in magic, and I don't practice any of that stuff. So, mostly I just say I'm non-religious.
The thing is, that pre-Christian cultures based their festivals on the seasons, because they were so attuned to agriculture. We celebrate the turning of the year as a factual event, but yet certain times bring with them a lot of associated emotions. Summer solstice means that the evenings will start getting shorter, so it's very conflicted, because it's the beginning of the path of the sun down from the peak of the analemma (see my avatar photo). Our family acknowledges the ancient festival days if we remember to, but they don't have special spiritual significance. I just think it's very, very interesting how Christianity overlaid the ancient festival days with religion, and called them Christian holidays.
Today I'm sending out holiday cards with the greeting "Happy Yule."
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Well said Analemma...as a wiccan (and a pagan) I will be celebrating Yule this year as well!! I've often wondered about whether or not I should post here as I'm not atheist, but I also don't believe in "the god" the way Christians do....most importantly, I believe that everyone has the right to choose the path they are meant to follow.
Cheers
Peggy
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I suppose that by over laying the new christian holidays on the older established ones made it easier for the new church to establish themselves. You may have mentioned before- but what is Yule?
Peggy- is there a central being or universal spirit that is core to your belief/practice/rituals?
Seems to me that all of us end up at the same place, just by different paths.
Be well...Elaine
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Yule = winter solstice festival in ancient Celtic and British culture. As in:
Deck the halls with boughs of holly,
Fa la la la la, la la la la.
Tis the season to be jolly,
Fa la la la la, la la la la.
Don we now our gay apparel,
Fa la la, la la la, la la la.
Troll the ancient Yule tide carol,
Fa la la la la, la la la la.
See the blazing Yule before us,
Fa la la la la, la la la la.
Strike the harp and join the chorus.
Fa la la la la, la la la la.
Follow me in merry measure,
Fa la la la la, la la la la.
While I tell of Yule tide treasure,
Fa la la la la, la la la la.0 -
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OK. I am back to those other Gods. I want to know why the Parking god usually smiles on me, but the god of all things clerical does not. In short, why do I have good parking karma, but terrible clerical karma. I also have bad computer karma so the God of computers also frowns on me. Yikes, maybe it has something to do with the letter "C" . How does one appease those other gods? It has been suggested that we create our own bad karma, but I reject that theory.
Just kidding. Sure glad that this thread is here, especially at this time of year. Glad for the parking karma, but wish the clerical karma were better. Mastercard has already put a hold on my account for a legitimate charge which took me about a half an hour on phone to straighten out. One package of mail order Christmas presents is missing. The tracking system lists it as "delivered." Sigh. I would gladly trade my gods of parking for some benevolent clerical and computer gods. Anyone want to swap?
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I'm just hoping the god of cookie baking smiles down on me tomorrow. I'm making snickerdoodles and british shortbread for the cookie exchange with the ladies at the church (yep, I go for the social justice, and singing. Unitarians welcome everybody, even atheists, and pagans, too. No prayer there.)
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I find that the last month has increased my tolerance for people praying for me. I used to find it strange and a little off-putting. Perhaps even insulting. But what with this cancer thing, I just appreciate that they mean well and are trying to help. It doesn't matter that their prayer isn't likely to do anything, but it makes them feel better, and it shows me that they're thinking of me. So it seems rather sweet to me now.
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