Is anyone else an atheist with BC besides me?
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Hahha i just took the test, not only am I a whining rotter, my score is 1.466666 -like isn't 666 the sign of the DEVIL??????
When I was about eight, I caught myself praying to God to fix the TV which was flipping horizontally so I couldn't watch Loonytunes. I swear - I said to myself - this isn't right, yet isn't that the type of problem that people are encouraged to ask God to fix through prayer? Let me catch this fish or win this game? oh and the Grammys! what a joke! thank you God for giving me this Grammy, as if???
My dad and mom were non-practicing Jews, but because my brother and I wished it, joined a reformed synagogue. I loved the Hebrew prayers and songs, holidays and the moral teachings - but never felt that connection to the State of Israel which is supported vehemently by most congregations. I just drifted away. My husband was raised Catholic, but his dad, like mine, didn't believe in organized religion and I guess, that is how I feel too. It is important to me to be good and to do good. If things are going badly and I need to pray - I do so, it focuses my thoughts. I am confident though, that if there is a Supreme Being, it doesn't matter whether we believe in him/her/it.
Marion - thank you for putting the recent controversy over the Muslim headwear in context, I hadn't realized that in France, all religious signs are discouraged.
Julie E
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The other day my director walked into a room of employees, including me, and asked if anyone believed in "divine intervention." I kept my blank look on my face while everyone else said "Yeah" and "Of course." She then said, in all seriousness, that she had a personal family need and wanted all of us to pray for that need: her daughter was going to cheerleader tryouts later that afternoon and would "just die" if she did not make the squad. I had so many things running through my mind that I had to bite my tongue to keep from saying any of them! I'm sure you can imagine quite a few yourself!
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Notself, or whomever questioned babies being non-theist, the answer is absolutely they are.
Humans are not born with a belief in magical beings or god creatures.
Are babies born believing in a man called Santa Claus? The Easter Bunny? No. They must be exposed to the story repeatedly to "get" it.
Accordingly, it takes indoctrination to create a theist. Children don't believe in Allah unless their parents teach them about allah. How odd would it be for a non-exposed baptist child to profer a belief in Vishnu?
The roots of religion are based in the social animals that we are. We want to live together in social networks. Early in human history, people who were not necessarily the "strong" providers found they needed to find a way for the social networks to support them. These were usually smarter, more sly individuals who could perform "magic" tricks (using herbs, etc to "heal"). The rest is history. We've never seemed to be able to let go of the power/control that the magical thinkers have over our species.
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I tend to look at the positives in all religions. Those positives relate to loving and respecting each other. Jesus was just a man who relayed that message. It's logical. Loving and respecting each other is the only way humanity can survive. Too bad some religions have used that message to convolute. I have my own beliefs and they involve star trek episodes. hehehehe!
I've been out of the loop so gonna go check out that other thread.
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I could get into a star trek "religion!"
On the other hand, I do not think that religions' "good" outweighs its "bad." I can't think of a single "religion" that hasn't pervered the message, or a single church whose members haven't perverted it as well. Simply because people are people and they will use any and all tools they can to make themselves feel better at the expense of others, and too many people (church leaders) require the blind devotion to remain in power and control.
The "love" message is lost in all cases, because of that, in my opinion.
Loving and respecting is very important for humanity to survive. Fortunately, religion isn't needed or required to accomplish that.
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Madalyn, I had to stop going to the health care posts long ago. The narrow-minded, selfish attitudes exhibited aren't conducive to my state of mind. And I can't guarantee that I won't go medieval on some of them! Oh well. Wish I could go and have your back, but it wouldn't be pretty!0
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Elen..just wanted to say hi to you...I have no noble thoughts today..hmmm
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I loved it. It was raw and well directed.
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Blue .. huge hugs ... glad to see you typing.
lotsalove,
me
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I think the question about "what church" is more often asked in rural communities. I was never asked anything about religion when I lived in a major metropolitan area. In rural communities, the church functions as much as a social outlet as a religious one. When people invite you to their church, they are inviting you into their social circle. It is not usually a form of proselytizing.
However, I agree that Fundamentalism is a problem the world over. I define it as any person or group who believes they have an obligation to make everyone believe as they believe. If Fundamentalist groups are successful in gaining political control of the government, their so called obligation becomes forcible conversion or forcible outward compliance to the Fundamentalist beliefs.
Make no mistake, the establishment of a specific type of Christianity as the official American religion is the goal of at least one group of American Fundamentalists. Just Google "Wedge Strategy" The Wedge document was part of the document production during the Kitzmiller v Dover trial about Intelligent Design. Just Google Kitzmiller.
I do not categorized conservative Christians as necessarily Fundamentalists. Conservatism is not the same thing as Fundamentalism. Fundamentalism in my definition equates to extremism.
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Notself, you're right about the church being a social circle in rural areas. I will keep that in mind the next time I get asked about church affiliation. (So I won't get so annoyed.) <grin>
Actually, that doesn't happen much anymore. I think it's more likely to occur when you first move to a new place. I can see that people would want to share their "church home," too. Just like their recommendations for a family doctor or a car mechanic.
But I can't believe being asked to pray as a group for somebody's cheerleading tryout. One can only hope that was said, at least partially, tongue in cheek. Yikes!
And I loved the new Star Trek movie. Thought I would hate it. But LOVED it. Especially new Spock. And the actor playing Bones was channeling DeForest Kelly.
Bones: "I can fix it! I can fix it!" Kirk: "STOP it!!!" LOLOLOLOL
--CindyMN
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Wow, there's a lot going on here. First off, I'm a whining rotter with a score of 1.6. Funny test!!! I love star trek, but haven't seen the new movie. Haven't visited the health care threads. I suspected from the beginning that they'd get harsh.Can't think straight today. Consider that I've written some rant against intolerance, and sent hugs to all of you!
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Chumfry .. I agree, too. My elderly neighbors don't ask me about going to church anymore. They are so good to me in so many way, that I'm sure they believe they're looking out for my best interest. So I try to return the kindness and keep the topic to canning (which I know nothing about) and making sure she has enough walnuts, pears, apples, etc.
((((Gryffin)))) Hope you find your thoughts straightened sometime today!
Notself ... I think you would like this book I'm wading through. The Battle for God, A History of Fundamentalism by Karen Armstrong. She starts with a history of how fundamentalism began in the Jewish, Muslim and Christian faiths. Great read, but I have a problem with concentration and have to read it in small bits.
Hugs to everyone,
Bren
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Hugs back at you Bren.
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BinVA,
I will add The Battle for God to my list on Amazon. I love Karen Armstrong. Her book on the history of Islam should be required reading for all Congressmen and Senators as well as the President. It was clear that once Saddam was removed that a sectarian war would break out in Iraq. We also need to understand the differences in Muslim beliefs between Iraq, Iran and Saudi Arabia. Afghanistan has always been Afghanistan. No one including Alexander the Great was ever able to hold that country.
I would like to recommend Karen Armstrong's book "Buddha". It is excellent biography and an easy read.
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Notself .. Thanks for the book suggestion. I'll check it out.
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I never liked the original Star Trek. Loved TNG -- Jean Luke, Data, Worf. Mmmm Worf. But I do refer to my tumours as Tribbles -- they keep reproducing and popping up everywhere.
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Hi Elizabeth ... I'm keeping up with you on the Stage IV thread.
I hope you are feeling fine and up to the trip to Boston this weekend. I love road trips .. and yours comes with a bonus at the end. I had a relationship similar to yours in the past where I did all the traveling. It suited me just fine. And I always enjoyed the trips!
love you,
Bren
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Thanks for the reading recommendations. I am keeping a list of the books I want to read in the event that my brain/mind ever recovers from cancer/treatment related cognitive impairment, aka chemobrain. Right now I am reading Jon Kabat Zinn's most recent book on how meditation can change us individually as well as collectively. It is thought provoking, and (almost embarrassed to admit) presented in short chapters that my brain/mind can handle.
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Thanks Bren!
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I would like to share something that was posted on a non-theist forum that I visit. The poster was responding to a theist claiming that non-theists (or atheists) have no purpose in life and that religion is harmless in any event so why not just let it be. I really like the way he argued his position:
I beg to differ on these stereotypes of atheism and harmlessness of religion.
No Purpose?
Not believing in god does not mean we have to purpose. It gives us the ability to create our own. Many of us have relized that we are a small part of much greater things. Mankind. Life. This planet. The universe. Individuals will not live forever, but just because we meet the same fate in the end, we don't need to focus on that. It's not the destination. It's the journey. Life, an existance itself, is absolutely amazing. We humans are part of nature. I like to think of humanity as the universe trying to understand itself.
Religion, harmless?
Considering the purpose I have given myself, I feel that religion conflicts with that. We can't understand the universe when we live by ancient myths. The Bible is no more trustworthy than Greek mythology or the Verdas of Hinduism or the Koran. And yet, this superstition still wages a war on science. Creationists and fundalmentalists want to teach Bible stories in science and history class rooms. This is wrong. Religion has been used to justify slavery, violence, persecution of women, child abuse, forced marriages, racism, executions for trival crimes, monarchies, wars, and unjust governments. Today, religion binds our government by preventing new ideas from being used. Parents brainwash young children to follow this terrible lie. I was one of them. It took me years to overcome and years more to have to courage to express my feelings to my closest friends. THIS HARMED ME! I HATED IT! I STILL PRETEND TO BE RELIGIOUS in public and around my family. Because I feel I have no ither choice. If I told them, they might never accept me again. THAT is why I hate religion. I have empathy for others, and would wish for them to avoid this. So I will argue for reason and against religion. And how dare you claim that religion is harmless!0 -
The purpose of life is to live. One need only look at grass growing in the cracks of a sidewalk to see that. The goal of human life is to live with kindness and compassion and to die looking back on a life well lived.
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Thanks for posting that, Michele. I've had this "discussion" with my born-again sister. "What's the point of life if there's no god?" is such an odd argument. To me, it's another example of how self-centered many humans seem to be. Like the world must revolve around them and their behaviors.
Are we really that important? I think not. But I often think religions were created to make humans feel more important. "Hey, god created me in his image! I'm too special to end when I die!"
I'm in the process of reading the Old Testament and it's full of weird stuff. Why would an omnipotent god care about the length of the draperies in his temple? (I'm getting to the point that I begin to skim anytime I see a "begat" or a "cubit.")
--CindyMN
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It's the "ego" thing, Cindy! (and I don't mean that in a self-aggrandizing way). The human ego, IMHO, cannot conceive of not existing. An after-life (either in "heaven" or back on earth in the form of another human being) answers that need quite nicely.
Notself: You said it! The goal of human life is to live with kindness and compassion and to die looking back on a life well-lived. And not because some omnipotent being scared you into it....
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Chumfry .. you tickled me. There are lots of "begats" in Chronicles!
Notself .. That pretty much sums it up for me.
Ez ... I think the context of the Bible and it's teachings needs to be kept in mind in it's place and time in history. The story of the Jewish people struggle in the beginning to break away from the concept of many gods to one god is really the beginning (of the move towards Christianity). When I think about the Bible now, I think of it in a historic sense. I don't talk to my family or friends about my lack of faith. It's been my personal journey. I don't want to discuss it with those closest to me. My DH still prays and believes in the heavenly hereafter, etc., and I don't want him to be sad. So ... I let him do the praying and I do all the yardwork.
But, I have told my sis that when I die, no regligious ceremony and no talk of heaven. Just have a lot of laughs, cremate me and return me to the earth.
I don't know if religion is an ego enterprise. I think in the very beginning .. long before Christianity, Judaism, Islam, etc., it was probably a way to explain the unexplainable at the time. Such as .. OMG, we made fire .. how did that happen? Must be a fire god, and so on.
My purpose on this earth is to be a good person, love all around me, have grace for those who irritate me and return to the universe when it's all over.
love,
Bren
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So Madalyn where are the baby pictures???? Just one.
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Bren, in regard to 'begats,' it confirms my belief that males wrote the Bible. If man was made in HIS image, it's a typical male thing that they thought about sex too often!
Hubby and I were discussing religion/agnosticism/atheism the other day and after years of listening to his theorys of parallel universes, that we are some other species idea of an ant farm etc., he started trying to convert me back to a christian perspective.
My parting shot after half an hour was that I didn't want any of that jibber jabber at my funeral.
Many years ago after his younger brother died and after seeing how his wishes were not carried out re cremation versus burial, I told him what I would want at my funeral.
I was told in no uncertain terms that I was not to worry about it and he would do things in whatever manner he saw fit!
It seems strange to me how people can go through life without a thought about what they believe and end-of-life issues and then, when they loom on the horizon, they become holier than thou, and feel it is their lifes goal to see others off righteously.
I believe its more about religious fear for their own souls than love for another person.
Sheila.
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AussieSheila,
Don't argue about funeral rites or the lack of them. Your husband is right because funerals are for the living. If a barbaric body worshipping ceremony gets him through his grief, agree to the damn thing.
My sister will be comforted if I see a priest in my last days. So I will see one. It makes no difference to me. I will probably end up hearing his confession. LOL
However, I have been very careful about who I give my medical care proxy. My sister will not have that. She is a loving compassionate woman but she is 100% Catholic. She would always put her church before my wishes. My proxy will go to my husband and in the alternative to my brother who wouldn't dream of violating my wishes for end of life care.
This is how my end of life care proxy concludes:
"I have confidence that my health care agent will do his best to make good health care decisions on my behalf. If these decisions are correct, I thank him. If they are incorrect, I forgive him. In either case he has my blessing and my thanks."
Here is a link to Living Will forms by State:
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Notself .. that is why I have made my sis promise to follow my wishes .. and she will make sure of it. Thanks for the link to living wills.
Bren
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I highly recommend this Nova presentation on Darwin. The pressure of conformity over truth will always be with us.
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