Is anyone else an atheist with BC besides me?
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I don't have any new pictures of my cats, but I do have some mauve paw prints on the floor ... I started painting again, and for whatever reason, I like painting on the floor the best. Not bad when the cats are asleep. But the other day Joli wakes up in the middle of a floor session & jumps down on the wet canvas & then walks across the floor. Luckily she has dainty paws ...
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My gosh ... our thread was just about bumped out to page 2. yikes!
Tank is growing like crazy and I've taught him to sit for his treats. He's had some relapse issues with peeing in the kitchen in the a.m., so I've taken his water bowl up at 8 p.m. and started feeding him at 4 p.m. I sure hope this works. Tim's home, after being on the road for two weeks, and I think he might knock some sense into poor little Tank! OMG .. Tim raises his voice to him and he runs and hides behind me. Well .. something has to be done .. I can't keep mopping the kitchen floor every morning at 7 a.m. arghh.
love to all,
Bren
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Bren, Sounds like some "adjustment issues" for poor Tank; I hope his water schedule adjustment works.
I was thinking about this thread today, for a number of reasons. I have been musing over answers to various questions of a religious nature since I will be joining some get-togethers and likely facing the "What church do you attend?" and other variations. I told my husband today that I will now start saying "The Church of Nature" or "The Church of the Natural World." I have often just been blunt and said "None" but I often get on the other end of proselytizing, which I want to avoid. I thought the above response might give others a better inkling of who I am without getting too involved in the issue. What do you think? How do you handle such questions (especially if you are unfortunate enough to live in a conservative area and likely will be there for a while--like me, so trying not to offend others and to be true to yourself is an interesting quandary)?
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I just say I am a non-theist
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Hi Brenda ... your question reminded me of a time when I lived in So. Utah, where everyone is Mormon. I lived up in the mountains and my realtor lived a few miles away. While visiting her one day, I asked if she was Mormon (it was a Sunday). She laughed and said her husbad was at the Church of the Santa Clara River (down the road fishing).
I live in the Bible belt now in a rural area .. and getting asked to church happens frequently .. and by really nice neighbors that I want to keep as friends. I just say no thanks and change the subject. When they want to talk politics, I just nod my head and hopefully they'll say something I can agree with!
What I have found is that living in this area is a totally different culture than San Diego where I grew up .. or even Mormon-land. They have their traditions and beliefs going back before the Civil War. I could easily discuss my lack of beliefs if living in San Diego, but here it might be hurtful to their way of life. The people in this area have lived here for generations, their culture and beliefs are deep. I am true to myself .. and don't hide my personality around them (which is much more than what I do or don't believe in) ... I just choose not to discuss my personal beliefs.
Instead .. I give my neighbor walnuts and she makes me brownies .. you get the picture.
Hugs,
from another southern transplanted Brenda
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It *is* difficult to field these types of questions, particularly in a conservative area where you truly don't want to alienate people. I've found that some form of "No, thank you" usually works, even if I have to repeat it a couple of times, louder and more firmly with each repetition. <grin>
When I'm asked what church I go to, I usually say, "None" or "none, right now." Then if they invite me to their church, I thank them and say I'll keep that in mind. (For like two seconds!) LOL
Within the past year, I've "come out" as an atheist to a couple of close friends at work and a handful of bus buddies. (We were having a discussion and I couldn't help but interject that not EVERYone believes in God...)
The first reaction is almost always a dubious stare, as if I'd suddenly grown two heads. I don't know what they think the average atheist looks like, but apparently not like me! Then we usually talk a bit about magical thinking and not believing everything you're told, especially from people who wear funny hats and have a vested interest in getting you to believe what they're selling.
I've also had a few people tell me that they're sorry for me, which can make my temper flare a bit. I usually get around that one by telling them (nicely) that I feel the same way about them.
--CindyMN
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I live in the Ozarks. I go to the local UU http://www.uua.org/visitors/spiritualtopics/151294.shtml
Atheists are a minority in some UU's but in local one, atheists are in the majority. I tell people who ask if I have a church that I attend the Unitarian "church". They seem happy and the subject doesn't come up again. I found many like minded people at the UU. Even the theists are very laid back and accepting of other or no beliefs. Of course, most of the theists are believers in Nature as a focus of reverence rather than any of the Abrahamic religions.
I have no problem when people say "God bless you". I return with "Bless you" and I mean it to mean that I hope they will be well and happy.
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I have lived in Europe and all over the US..the only person who gets upset with my being a
non-theist is my Mother, who is a minister's daughter...
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My mom would have been equally upset with me. My husband thinks like I do but family does not know because it would worry them so much that we are going to hell. They are already worried enough by knowing that we are not Catholic.
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Thanks for the feedback. In my area I would have to spend a significant amount of time explaining what a "non-theist" is to some people, and some would likely say, "You mean you don't believe that Jesus Christ died to save you from your sins?" Usually when I get asked that, I will say something like "I have nontraditional spiritual beliefs and those beliefs don't center around that particular story." Of course, then I have to be ready for the onslaught, which some days I am ready to face, other days just weary of the same old experience.
Recently I was concerned about one of my colleagues, who said she was distressed because her brother was in hell since he had committed suicide. Interestingly, she said she knew that he would have to suffer for all eternity because of his act but that she did not like it that others often felt like they had to point that out to her. I asked her if she had considered the possibility that ending one's own life did not automatically result in "going to hell" and that she might find some peace in the process of reconsidering that particular belief. She seemed almost more shocked that I would suggest such a thing than if I had told her that he certainly would suffer in hell. Of course, I realize why "that sort of talk" would upset some, but I just don't feel comfortable remaining quiet in the face of suffering.
My family and those most important in my life know about my sense of spirituality as related to universal connection and nature. Many of my family members worry that I will suffer for all eternity because of my lack of a Christian belief system. For the most part I just don't explore that particular topic with them anymore.
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Hi Madalyn ... been keeping up with you on the Republican healthcare versus other country healthcare thread. OMG. I was reading it for entertainment .. until I started to get really angry.
Brenda .. around here, it is assumed you're some type of Baptist faith or maybe Methodist and lastly Catholic. Oh .. and the Pentacostals are strong here too. Nobody really asks, except to invite you to their church.
When we lived in North Carolina for a short while, we attended my brother's church with the family. It was a large church with a band and singing, more like a worship production. Anyway .. one day the preacher related that just that week two teenage boys were killed in a car accident. One was a saved Christian and the other was not. He went on to tell the congregation that the unsaved teen was in hell and the saved boy was in heaven. OMG .. Imagine of the parents of those children were listening to that crap.
I was pretty much on my way out (of faith altogether) about that point. Only went cause it was a family function. So, we left that day and I never looked back.
As a born and raised Lutheran, I was never comfortable with the idea of original sin .. and all that damnation preaching was very scary.
I'm happy just to be breathing and ponder what's beyond the universe. I was a few feet away from a cardinal taking a bath in my lower stream the other day .. that's pretty close to heaven I think.
hugs,
Bren
EDITED: All of my "real" life friends are Christians and most of my family too .. I'm happy they have something to believe in that gives them comfort, it's just not for me.
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Whew! I've lived in my little tourist town here for 5 years and not one person has asked me what church I belong to! While raised in a very devout protestant family, I found it common that one's religion or spiritual belief was one's own business -- as it should be, I think, and still is in these parts.
Bren, how sad, not to mention outrageous, that a minister would say that at a church service. Just makes my blood boil how self-righteous some people can be......and how they bolster their belief by making people afraid, very afraid.....sort of like what's happening with the opposition to healthcare reform.
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I agree Linda .. it made me so angry .. and my sis too (she was there), and she's not much of a believer and her husband is an atheist.
That's why I just can't contribute to the healthcare thread. There is no separation of church and state on that thread. I believe in the right to choose, I also, personally, would not choose abortion ... but my word .. don't post such horrible stuff about axing baby's heads and such. I wanted to strangle those gals. Don't get me started on the Catholic church, not a lot different than the Mormon church.
Sheesh .. I better not get started on THAT religion now.
Gotta feed Tank and the others.
hugs,
Bren
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I think that people are people regardless of religion or lack of it. What differentiates us is how our brains respond to input. There are people who respond with a strong belief in authority also known as paternalism. There are people who respond with a strong belief in kindness and compassion also known as maternalism. Most people fall in between the two extremes.
Here's a little something to take our mind off religion. Please post your scores. I tested 2.5 I am a liberal airhead.
http://www.anesi.com/fscale.htm
If anyone wants to discuss non theism v theism there are two interesting forums. The smaller one is called "Happy Atheist Forum" and the other is the reincarnation of the Richard Dawkins forum called "Rational Skepticism Forum". Just some thoughts.
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I remember being a high school student and for some reason I was at a United Church weekend camp (we went to the Anglican/Episcopalian church so I don't know how that happened). There were discussions about who was going to heaven and who was going to hell. The leader of the group made it clear that only those who believed the Jesus story were going to heaven. I asked what about people who had never even heard the story? He said they were going to hell too. The literal acceptance of some bible stories as fact had already put me off religion. That weekend finished it.
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I live in Milton Florida . .in the buckle of the Bible Belt. I am agnostic with pagan overtones ..
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I was raised in a very religious family. Although I went through all the ceremonies and rituals, I just didn't believe. Do you think atheists are born non believers and it just takes a while to notice?
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Whining rotter here, just checking in
!Madalyn, you make an interesting point about teaching us just enough so that we question what we thought were religious truisms. That happened to me as a teenager -- as we were taking classes in order to officially become members of the congregation (eligible to take communion etc.), I finally got up enough nerve to ask why MY religion was the right one, and all the others were wrong. Hmmmm. Asked the question, but fortunately didn't get the same answer as Lassie did at her camp (and I'm talking about the United Church, Lassie!). My minister started talking about faith in a higher power, but also said that treating others as you would want to be treated is the most important rule to remember. And that's the part that's the most meaningful to me.
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Notself: I'm a 3.13 .. disciplined, but tolerant. Yikes! And my family thinks I'm an airhead!
I don't know if it's a chicken or egg thing. I imagine it's different for everyone. I was a late-life non-believer in the faith I grew up in. Or the many faiths I grew up in. I knew Lutheranism was working for me after confirmation ... and left that one at age 14. There were others after that .. charismatic cult, commune, Pentecostal, higher power, Presbyterian, ...
I thought I wanted to be Catholic for awhile .. I liked the idea of absolution and doing a little penance .. and then wallah ... you're fresh and clean again!
Somewhere along the way, I learned about love, grace and mercy. Those three are what is important to me.
Bren
PS .. I'll get some updated pics of Tank, and yes, he is a Tank!
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Yeah for Daisy ... waiting for pics. I used to promise myself I wouldn't go to PetSmart on pet rescue day!
The DH's are so funny ... they aren't sure, and the next thing you know, they're the proud dogfathers. Tank has brought some new energy and fun into our house. I figured out how to take a little movie on my camera, and next I'll figure out how to Youtube it and share with everyone.
Sweet dreams,
Bren
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Madalyn -- congrats on your new adoptee! Daisy sounds like the ideal pet (gets along with cats LOL!). And while she loves everyone, I'm sure she'll soon turn into a great protector -- collies and GS's are so well-known for that (although my brother's GS is what I like to call "anybody's" and isn't watchful at all -- go figure <sigh>)
Anyhow, pics of Daisy and Tank would surely be enjoyed by all of us here!
G'night all!
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Yes! I'm a whining rotter! (Thanks for the link, notself.)
I love the term "dogfather." This thread keeps getting more and more ecumenical - we're not just about cats anymore.
Linda (breathing freely on this thread, and grateful for it)
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Hey BinVa and Madalyn!
I recognize you from the healthcare in the US vs other countries thread! This thread is insane, I stopped posting because it turned into a such big argument! But I'm rooting for you!
I'm an atheist and all of my friends from home are too. All my family is. I would even say that most of my countrymen are too, as nobody cares about religion at all. So it was quite a schock when I moved to Indiana 10 years ago and saw how many people were still believers. I thought most people from industrialized/western countries had stopped believing ... I am not sure why I thought that, I now realize how wrong I was.
Church and state are very separate in France. For example, we would never be taught anything else but evolution at school. People are not supposed to display any religious signs at school. For example, if you are wearing a small cross on a necklace, you are expected to hide it and put in under your shirt. If you are a muslim, you are not supposed to show up at school wearing a hijab. Most politicians never discuss their religion and it is never brought up during elections.
So as I already said, it was quite a shock when I came here to the US, but I recognized now that it might just be a cultural difference.
I actually had one of my roommates here tell me that she felt bad for me, that I was going "to go to hell" for being atheist. I laughed when she said that (because I do not believe in hell!), and this is what I have now on my facebook page under religious beliefs: "none, I'm going to hell !"
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Congrats on the dog Madalyn!
Because of breast cancer, I now doubt that I will ever have kids, so my husband and I are actually thinking we'll get dogs instead ! I've been looking on the humane society of indianapols website a lot!
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OMG, I'm a whining rotter! I steer clear of the health care forums, because it would just make my blood pressure spike! LOL
Boy, Marion, I bet that was a shock to come from that culture into ours. Religious belief is SO ingrained in most Americans. It's interesting to me when I first tell friends that I'm an atheist. They just stare at me, as if they can't reconcile the "me" that they know into a "me" that is different than them. They honestly can't understand how I canNOT believe in God.
I often tell them I'm just as bewildered about how they CAN believe in God.
--CindyMN
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Welcome Marion!
That's how I found my Tank .. on the Humane Society webpage in my area. It can be expensive, but they do shots, neuturing, vet exam and put chip in the ear. He was originally a $250 fee, but lowered it to $150 because he'd been there awhile. He was about 3 months when I brought him home. All our children (from past marriages) are grown and living across the country.
It's too bad the Healthcare in America v. Other Countries took such a turn, because the gals from Canada, France, UK and Australia had a lot to offer.
Hugs,
Bren
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Bonjour Marion! (And Hi to everyone else!)
After 4 days of rain ad high winds, the sun is finally peeking through the clouds so this should be the start of a good week indeed! And just to top it off, Environment Canada is predicting those of us in central Canada have seen the last of winter -- hurray! That's good news for my daffodils and hyacinths, which poked their heads through about a month ago and are ready to show their colours!
It's interesting to hear about the relaxation, as well as the suppression, of open religious expression in most of Europe. I can recall a time when Sophia Loren and Carlo Ponti were exiled to France and would be arrested if they returned to Italy because he had been divorced. Here in Canada we are dealing with court cases regarding religious attire and accessories. At one time, it was Sikhs who sued to be able to wear their traditional kirpan (a short, curved, engraved knife) openly. We had Sikhs join the RCMP who sued to be able to wear their turban instead of the Mountie hat. (frankly, it's wonderful to see Sikh cops wearing their headress). The latest is an ESL student from Egypt (I think) who is fighting to be able to wear the niqab (is that the word for veil?). She lives in Quebec and the school is asking her not to wear it. She also doesn't want to participate in a seminar that involves men. Well, in her culture and religion, showing one's face or speaking to men outside her family means she's a loose woman.
Frankly, I don't see much difference between those who want to cling to their religion/culture and the extremist evangelical movement in the U.S. (which is creeping into Canada). It just doesn't involve attire.....just involves who you associate with and who you vote for (hence the question "What church will you be attending?") But what is scarier is that it openly fosters an "us against them" mentality.
Please, correct me if I'm wrong.
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Hello Lindasa,
It is interesting to see Quebec has the same issues as in France: muslim students (in this case, Egyptian) protesting the fact they cannot show their religious beliefs at school.
I agree with you that extreme evangelicals are scary. Extreme evangelicals are fundamentalists and fundamentalists from any religion are kind of crazy!
Is Canada less or more religious than the US ?
Has anyone watched Religulous by Bill Maher?
Diagnosis: 7/23/2009, IDC, 1cm, Stage IIa, Grade 1, 1/14 nodes, ER+/PR+, HER2-0 -
Marion, I was trying to find statistical comparisons on the net but couldn't find any. However, I do recall an article some time ago which discussed religious adherence in Canada and the U.S. and the percentage per population was much less in Canada.
However, there are a couple of interesting notes. Canada was settled largely by Catholics and Anglicans (as well as other protestant sects from Europe too). So for a very long time, it was a Christian country. With the wide wave of immigration following WWll, the Catholic population rose significantly. But within the past 25 years or so, immigrants are coming mainly from Asia, India and the middle east. In fact, Islam is now the fastest growing religion in Canada.
We're very different from the U.S. in how we integrate immigrants. Rather than the melting pot approach (encouraging everyone assimilate, adapt and leave the old ways/religion back home) Canadians have adopted the "vertical mosaic" approach -- follow our laws, but it's good to be a land of many cultures and you are welcome to celebrate yours. It also seems that by the second or third generation, people start leaving the old ways of their parents and grandparents and become more independent in their way of life and their faith.
Not saying one approach is better than the other, but I think it has resulted in a greater degree of tolerance and understanding. And, as I said before, most Canadians feel that religion is "my own business, and not yours". Which underscores why no one in the past 5 years since I moved here has asked me what church I'm going to attend
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I love Bill Maher. It was so funny to see all of the "Christian" people so dazed by the questions he asked. They did not know what hit them. I also watched a very interesting episode of 30 days on Netflix. The situation was to take an atheist and place her (upstanding in community, kids actively involved in community and married for 26 yrs) with a Christian family for 30 days. She was GREAT! Very nice, but posed many questions to them as she went through her 30 days. I felt the C Mom was very open, but the C father was so so negative and sometimes offensive because she did not share his views. I find this is often the attitude where I live (Southern Bible Belt) uggg. I just try and not get confrontational when it is shoved in my face. My mom (very Christian) is pretty good though. She finally got the picture that I do not need a mythical being to give me purpose and she quit pushing it. Glad to know I am not alone in my lack of belief!
XO,
Regina
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