natural girls
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Allie, thanks for posting that link. I of course am on high dose vitamin B complex. I always learn something from this page.
Cyber hugs
Mandy
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Cripes!!! Folic acid and B12, now I'm going to have to go through my supplements !!! Thank you Allie.
My onc actually made a remark when i told her about taking Boitin for hair growth, that she was leary of taking anything that make stuff "grow" with a history of cancer.
Hmmm.
You know, we take B vitamins in the ATP cofactors (B2 and B3, Niacin and Riboflavin) for those of us who supplement Iodine. I hope these aren't dangerous!
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Deni, that study reminds me of the one they did with lung cancer and Vit C. It was a flawed study and people read into it that vit c caused lung cancer. I do not give a lot of credence to studies that isolate one supplement because of what I remember reading in Dr. Strand's book. He said that the problem with these studies it that it is almost impossible to isolate one nutrient and make a deduction. He felt that nutrients are synergistic and need to be taken together for the true effects. That is why he does not advocate taking just one or two, he says we need to supplement everything for balance. For instance, we need the b, and magnesium for iodine absortion. They all work together. Also, that article did not explain what a high dose was? I do not like to read articles like that, for news stories or short articles, where sources are not listed. They edit out too many facts.
Linn, besides our long thread here on iodine, thyroid and bc, check out the info at naturalthryroidchoices. The author had thyroid cancer and has a lot of research listed. She advocates that we go by symptoms to determine our thyroid status rather than tests. The symptoms you describe sound like hypothyroid for sure. You probable need iodine. Since you are in IL, you might want to check out marinavenue pharmacy in Naperville. Lots of info on this, free handouts, and they compound iodine.
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As far as the preventionconvention, my goal is to find experts and docs in my area to come and speak for free. I have some pretty good feedback so far, I am just waiting for hotels to get back to me with dates and rates. So far I have a compounding pharm, energy expert, hormone balance doc, thermography, a chef, yoga teacher, salt cave, far infared sauna, and a couple of comedians to entertain us. What I am hoping is that these catch on and others do them in their area, with local doctors. They usually will speak for free because they can get the word out about there for business. I do not want to pay anyone to have to travel. So it seems like there are a lot of good connections in CA so you CA gals can do the next one!
Carol, I heard a guy speak about Monsanto at a health conference. That GMO is scary stuff. We have go to get it outlawed. They do not allow it in Europe because it was killing their livestock. Yet, we feed it to our children here. It is disgusting!
Deni, I read about the reservatol and absorption of iodine on the iodine group.
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hi everyone... good to find this here today. i was wondering if there were any solely alternative non traditional minded women out here in BC land... i am real glad to find you all... i am on the non trad path and really happy about my choice. i have been doing some amazing healing work inner and outer on all levels and still am. looking fwd to sharing and meeting you all here as i get to know the site. i dont trust doctors and had some very interesting experiences in my early diagnosis which i hope later to put in the form of a book to educate everyone of the big biz of BC. g-d bless you all. we have to maintain faith and a chin up attitude while we walk through this toward our healing. peace is.
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proalt7, WELCOME!! Glad to have you here!!
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Question I'd like to throw out there concerning eating soy products when your not taking Tamoxifen & have + hormone receptors.
I was told not to drink green tea during radiation - Ok, so I'll start drinking it again as soon as I am done.
I decided not to take Tamoxifen / I'm 50 yrs old and pre-menopausal / I know soy would be good for going into pre-menopause, but because I have +hormone receptors - If I had a lot of soy in my diet, would I be feeding my hormone+ cells to potentially grow cancer?
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Ivorymom - great question! I will bring it up. I am not going until mid-December, but my list of questions is growing!
Vtmom - I was told to avoid soy by one doc and that it is OK in moderation by another! I try to avoid it as much as possible. Everything seems to have soy in it! I eat very little in the way of anything I don't prepare myself. But, even in vegetable boullion there is a variation of soy in it (even though they call it nutritional yeast extract!)
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Soy seems to be in so many things these days that if you try to avoid it, you actually wind up eating it in moderation. If you don't pay attention, or try to add it to your diet, you will be consuming a large amount of it.
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Meg...
After chemo, I started experiencing heart palpitations. My onc sent me to a cardiologist who ran an EKG and found nothing wrong. However, he did want me to come back for a stress test. About this time, a client (CNP) came by and we talked. She asked if I took magnesium. No, I did not. Within three days of taking magnesium, my heart palpitations completely stopped! My magnesium levels was one of the blood tests that my CNP (in conjunction with a doctor) ran. I now firmly believe in magnesium!!!
~Jan~
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Thanks, Lucy88 . I wonder why my search did not turn it up? Maybe I am not using the Search function properly.
Vivre, THANK you so much for that info! I will have the thyroid test (it has been ordered by the dermatologist I saw for my bald spot), but I will not be surprised if it comes back "normal". I think I need to find a naturopathic doctor, maybe a nutritionist, too.
Vtmom, I was told not to drink green tea either during radiation. I don't have it often but thought it interesting that it was singled out. I plan to start when I am done...once I find a brand I like. I can't eat soy myself (can't digest it, gives me horrendous cramps), but because it is a phytoestrogen, it might be a bad idea. My SIL and niece each had their thyroids removed in their early teens. I had been doing a lot of reading about how soy affects thyroid function, as lately they were trying to be vegetarians and were eating a lot of it. I don't remember the details (knocked right out of my brain by my own subsequent issues) but it's not good.
Do you feel like you are starting menopause? I think I am most of the way through. I keep thinking I'm done, and then have another little surprise. I had very little of the discomfort many seem to have: maybe you will be lucky too. I have been taking ground flax seeds for years. It was recommended to me for my hormonal migraines, and it really helped. I found if I ran out, and was too lazy to go out and buy it, within a few weeks my migraines were worse. Now I stockpile it in the freezer. Just 2 Tablespoons on my oatmeal in the morning. Works on dry cereal too. It's tasty: like ground almonds. I think that may be what helped with my menopause too.
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Spring ~ Interesting take on Biotin, since, like hair and nails (the two things it helps grow), cancer cells are fast growing. One more thing to research and think about! D.
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I'm taking biotin as well... post-chemo hair loss. I would love to know if anyone finds research that says it's a "no-no".
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deni - here is another question: could biotin make cancer cells grow faster???? Thanks
Patty
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Hi Patty,
I do have to ask him whether or not taking B vitamins is a good idea. Since Biotin is a B vitamin, it falls under that category. I do remember him telling me a while back that they don't use B in high doses with cancer patients because it was unclear whether or not B helped cancer cells to grow. I am going to question him on that some more.
Deni
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Found this on Biotin, but I am not sure if its good or bad!!!
A nutrient in the vitamin B complex that the body needs in small amounts to function and stay healthy. Biotin helps some enzymes break down substances in the body for energy and helps tissues develop. It is found in yeast, whole milk, egg yolks, and organ meats. Biotin is water-soluble (can dissolve in water) and must be taken in every day. Not enough biotin can cause skin, nerve, and eye disorders. Biotin is present in larger amounts in some cancer tissue than in normal tissue. Attaching biotin to substances used to treat some types of cancer helps them find cancer cells. Also called vitamin H.
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off topic a bit, but found the stuff below interesting, and confusing aaaaahhh!!!
Legumes, including the soybean, contain bioactive compounds classified broadly as phytoestrogens as opposed to estrogens. Phytoestrogens are nonsteroidal and can actually inhibit steroids such as aromatase. Most have little or no estrogenic activity. When others have such activity, it is usually beneficial and specific to a certain tissue. For example, some soy isoflavones (a type of phytoestrogen) benefit bone but do not affect the kidney. In pharmacology terms, this is called a selective estrogen receptor modulator (SERM). A compound in soy, genistein, is a natural SERM. Tamoxifen and Raloxifen are chemical SERMs (Setchell et al. 1999).
The most recent studies suggest that the reason that different estrogens have different effects on different tissues is because there is more than one type of estrogen receptor. So far, three variations of the estrogen receptor have been found: one alpha and two betas. They share similar estrogen structure. The estrogen receptor-receptor (ERb) may suppress the action of the estrogen receptor-alpha (ERa) - at least in cancer cells (Maruyama et al. 2001; Saji et al. 2002; Speirs et al. 2002). And, growth-promoting estrogens such as estradiol activate ERa. Phytoestrogens preferentially activate theERb, which is repressive (Barkhem et al. 1998). For this reason, phytoestrogens have been characterized as good estrogens, and whatever estrogenic effect they have (which is estimated to be 1000-10,000 times weaker than estradiol, where it exists) may be nullified by their inhibition of estrogen synthesis and repression of the receptor that allows estradiol into the cell (Shao et al. 2000).
In normal tissue, the two estrogen receptors apparently work together to control both the amount and the use of estrogen in the body. It has been demonstrated that some types of cancer cells lose one type of estrogen receptor, leaving the control mechanism inoperable (Iwao et al. 2000; Sampath et al. 2001). This has been demonstrated in prostate cancer. Some types of prostate cancers do not express their ERaand some lose beta. This is why some will respond to estrogen and stop growing and others will stop growing when an anti-estrogen, such as genistein or Tamoxifen, is added.
The loss or gain of estrogen receptors occurs because of methylation abnormalities that occur in DNA (Lau et al. 2000). DNA methylation abnormalities are caused by three known factors: poor diet (i.e., a diet lacking in methylation factors including folate, vitamins B6 and B12), chemicals, and age.
Phytoestrogens include many diverse plant compounds, including resveratrol from grapes (Kopp 1998), curcumin from roots (Jaga 2001), and polyphenols from tea leaves (Mazur 1998). It is a very broad category that is further broken down into dozens of classifications such as flavonoids and flavones. The anticancer effects of phytoestrogens are the subject of dozens of scientific studies (Adlercreutz 1995).
Soy phytoestrogens help to prevent and control hormone-related breast cancer (Zhou et al. 2004; Adlercreutz 2002). It is especially beneficial for Western women, who are exposed to a comparatively high level of environmental estrogens. Soy is anti-estrogenic. It prevents the conversion of estrone to 17-beta-estradiol. Estradiol fuels the growth of breast cancer, whereas estrone is a weaker estrogen. Genistein causes cancer cells to metabolize estradiol to estrogenically weaker or inactive metabolites (Brueggemeier et al. 2001).
Soy phytoestrogens naturally activate the receptor, known as ERb, which in turn suppresses the activation of Era and allows growth-promoting estradiol into cancer cells (Pettersson et al. 2000). ERa is the receptor referred to as "estrogen receptor positive;" "estrogen receptor negative" breast cancer cells have estrogen ERb. Estrogen receptor positive cells have lost their beta-receptors duringthe events leading to breast cancer. Normal cells have both types of estrogen receptors.
Genistein naturally activates ERb, inhibiting cell proliferation. Activating the beta-receptor down-regulates the alpha-receptor, or estradiol-activated, receptor. This negates estradiol's cancer-promoting effects.
The consumption of soy reduced the risk of having ERa positive breast cancer by 56%, whereas the effect on both types of breast cancer was 30% (Dai et al. 2001).
Genistein interferes with cancer's ability to grow blood vessels. A direct link between alpha-receptors and angiogenesis has been discovered in estrogen receptor positive cancer cells (MCF-7). These cells have too many alpha-receptors and not enough beta-receptors. When estradiol attaches to the alpha-receptors, it activates a protein that promotes the formation of new blood vessels (Sampath et al. 2001). Genistein blocks the formation of new blood vessels (Zhou et al. 1998; Wietrzyk et al. 2001). Furthermore, genistein prevents vitamin D from being degraded by cancer cells (Farhan et al. 2002).
In a study on estrogen receptor positive breast cancer cells (MCF-7), genistein competed successfully with estradiol for access to the cells, and once inside, blocked estradiol from inducing cell growth. In a study on Japanese women who drank soymilk containing 100 mg of isoflavones a day, estrone and estradiol levels fell by almost 30% (Nagata et al. 1998).
Breast cancer cells have elevated levels of enzymes that produce estradiol. One of the enzymes, known as 17-beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase type 1 (17HSD1), causes the conversion of "weak estrogen" (estrone) to "strong estrogen" (estradiol) and helps cancer cells grow. A variant known as 17HSD2 does the opposite. Breast cancer cells have elevated amounts of 17HSD1, and insufficient 17HSD2 (Miyoshi et al. 2001). Studies show that if cancer cells are treated with genistein, 17HSD2 will be made, and "strong estrogen" (estradiol) will be converted to "weak" (estrone) (Hughes et al. 1997). A woman with breast cancer may have the same level of estrogen in her blood as a woman without breast cancer. The elevated estradiol levels occur inside cancer cells where abnormalities create imbalances in enzymes. Such 17HSDvariances favor the accumulation of estrogen for cell growth.
Genistein also inhibits an enzyme that is elevated in breast cancer cells known as "aromatase" (Kao et al. 1998; Breuggemeier et al. 2001). Aromatase helps convert testosterone to estrogen. Elevated male hormones, enlarged prostate, and abnormal cell growth do not promote prostate cancer in mice that lack aromatase (McPherson et al. 2001).
Asian women get early protection by eating soy their entire lives (Lamartiniere et al. 1998). The genistein in soy promotes more differentiated tissue in the breast, which leaves less tissue that can become cancerous. Soy isoflavones decrease density in the breast enabling easier detection of cancer by mammogram (Maskarenic et al. 2001). A serving of tofu every week decreases the risk of breast cancer by 15% (Wu et al. 1996). It is well-established that when Asian women abandon their traditional diet, their risk of breast cancer escalates. It is important to realize, however, that while it has been proven that soy components have direct and powerful effects against cancer cells, it cannot be assumed that soy alone is responsible for the reduced risk of hormone-related cancers in Asians. There are many aspects of the Asian diet that undoubtedly play a role, including the low consumption of animal fat. Green tea is another component of the Asian diet that has proven anticancer effects. A polyphenol from black tea has no effect on prostate cancer cells. However, when combined with genistein, it stops proliferation (Sakamoto 2000).
HER2/neu and EGFR are both related to breast cancers resistant to treatment with tamoxifen and other therapies (Ross et al. 1998). Genistein blocks an enzyme that promotes the proliferation of cancer cells. Because protein tyrosine kinases activate other cancer-promoting factors, genistein is a very attractive candidate for the prevention and treatment of various types of cancer. A dietary amount of the soy compound genistein significantly delayed the appearance of the HER2/neu-type cancer. It did not, however, reduce tumor size or number in this study (Jin et al. 2002).
It is important to note that DDT and other chlorine-related chemicals activate tyrosine kinases (TK), including HER2/neu-related ones in human cancer cells. Although DDT was banned decades ago, Americans are still being exposed to it. Genistein and other isoflavones block the activation of TK by DDT and related estrogen-mimicking chemicals, but tamoxifen does not (Enan et al. 1998; Verma et al. 1998).
A mouse study shows that increasing amounts of genistein retard cancer growth, in accordance with the cell studies (Shao et al. 1998). The animals must be implanted with estradiol to make the cancer cells grow (Santell et al. 2000; Allred et al. 2001; Ju et al. 2001). When mice are fed the equivalent of what Asians usually consume in their diets, the appearance of a genetic type breast cancer (as opposed to a chemically induced one) is significantly delayed by genistein, soy isoflavones, and daidzein, another soy compound (Jin et al. 2002).
Studies in monkeys, the closest animal model to humans, show that soy phytoestrogens impede the proliferation of cells responsive to estrogen. "Soybean phytoestrogens are not estrogenic at dietary doses" (Cline et al. 2001). Statistics on the rate of hormone-related cancers in Asians prove that soy is extremely beneficial against hormone-related cancers in humans. They show that people who eat large amounts of soy products have the lowest levels of strong estrogen in their bodies and the lowest rates of breast and prostate cancers
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Deni, I know we dscussed this on a previous thread but could you ask you ND which supplements compliment others and which should be taken together? I am curious to hear other suggestions. Thank you for the generous offer.
Vivre, Yes, the GMO saga is heatbreaking. Hard to understand the motivation behind mixing moth DNA with potatoes and promoting it as a food supply. If India can file suit to have GMO outlawed then certainly we can.,
Carole
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Carole - I brought up the whole issue of supplements the last time I saw my ND. Unfortunately, they didn't have a good answer for me. I just don't think they know! My onc had told me that I am taking so many supplements that his concern is that the ratios are off with what I am mixing and what I am taking when. I thought that was a great point so I brought it up to both my ND and my gyno who have prescribed LOTS of supplements. Neither had much more of an answer than that they should be taken with food. And, that I should separate my daily supplements (which total about 50 pills in total) into two separate dosing times - one in the morning and one in the evening. I haven't been able to find out more than that yet, unfortunately. But, I will try to bring it up again and see if I get any further this time! I does make so much sense that some of these supplements may not work well with others and probably should not be taken at the same time as others, but no one seems to know enough about this! I spend a great deal of money every month on supplements - probably close to what I spend on food for my family! It would be nice to know how to optimize my absorption of them!
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So true Deni! I spend a bundle on supplements and I would like to get the most bang for my buck. I also take 50 or so pills along with the drops, liquids, oils, not to mention the cost of the radical change in diet. (Why does eating healthy have to cost so much? Sigh) I began thinking about this when I learned that Curcumin should be taken with Black Pepper/Bioperine. Now I hear that Black Pepper needs to be roasted to be effective! Have not confirmed this yet but it has me thinking. I was recenlty told that I should expect to use this regimen or something similar for the rest of my life. I can accept this and try to budget accordingly but it sure would be nice to know more about when and how they should be taken.
Warm regards,
Carole
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I sent an email to my Osteopath about the Folic Acid and B12 articles. And in the mean time, I stopped taking B vitamins. I have another surgery on Dec 1 anyway (hopefully my *LAST*, please God!) and they don't want me taking anything other than a multi, Calcium and Vit C prior to surgery (I take other things, but stopped Aspirin, Fish Oil and Vit E).
Anyway, if I hear back I will let you all know.
Spring.
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Carole-I am fine with living this way for the rest of my life too. I look and feel better than ever and don't intend on looking back! But, as you said, getting the most bang for the buck is of course what we would all hope to get from all of this!
Have you tried the Super Curcumin by Life Extension? It has Bioperine (pepper) right in the formula. It's a very high quality supplement and pretty reasonable in price. I actually just became a member. It is $75 per year, but it includes a nice discount off of their supplements - which are high quality, subscription to their magazine,which is great, and access to one of their professionals who will phone consult with you regarding your regime (I haven't done this yet). I waited until I had a bunch of supplements to order. With the discounts I saved by joined, the membership paid for itself in one order.
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Spring - we have another sister who needs our thoughts and positive vibes! Your surgery is on December 1 - I will be thinking about you! My husband finally goes in for his nephrectomy on November 30, which is one week from today. He is starting to get really nervous about the operation (me too, but I try not to let him see). He is home from anow until the end of the year so that he can recover and then get back to work. Please send us all of your wonderful healing and positive vibes on November 30!!
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About the Folic Acid and B vitamins, Vivre, you wrote: "...I do not give a lot of credence to studies that isolate one supplement because of what I remember reading in Dr. Strand's book....."
Not only do I fully agree with this statement, but so does Dr. Servan-Schreiber. That's one of the points he brought up at the recent Society for Integrative Oncology Conference in New-York. Here is, in essence, what he said about that:
"...It blows my mind [Dr. Servan-Schreiber's own words] that my colleagues in Oncology keep looking at studies where supplements, life-style changes, and nutrition, are isolated and studied separately, and then come back with findings according to which neither one of those items works. They should know that COMBINATIONS of items work when isolated elements don't : that's why they themselves NEVER use just one chemotherapy compound......... chemo is always used in groups of at least three."
I was sitting in that room thinking: the man has a point (actually, he has more than 1 point, considering that he's been keeping one of the deadliest forms of cancer possible at bay for 20 years).
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Okay, this B12/folic acid study has me a little freaked out. I too am on high dose B-complex to decrease my homocysteine level...which it has effectively done. I am going to pass this on to my integrative doctor to see what he has to say. The last thing I want to be doing is feeding cancer cells!
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I wish you guys would stop panicking about this study. You are looking at a report in those links, that leaves out the details of the actually study. This is so typical of reporting these days. And like Yaz, I do not give credence to any study done on a specific nutrient in isolation. It is too vague. For instance, those of us on iodine have learned that it absorbs better when taken with magnesium, selenium, and B. So if someone did a study on iodine but did not tell those involved to take the companion nutrients, they could deem iodine a failure. Unless, you are taking megadoses of B, i think this is making a mountain out of a molehill.
Speaking of mag, have you guys checked out the magnesiumforlife website?
Fairy, you incredible researching maniac----that was great information you found. Could you just post the link though so that it would be easier to save? I am collecting all of your tidbits on information.
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Hello, old friends,
Thank you for all the supportive PMs after the SS haters troll invasion. We need to think about what to do to keep our little band of friends safe.
Anyway, I wanted to chime in on the folic acid + study. From my reading, they are talking about a study of people examined after the principal study that compared less than 300 people in each group. And they appear to use relative risk numbers to calculate the percentages. The results could be chance. This is one of those studies that gets everybody excited based on almost nothing.
xo anom
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ANOM IS BACK!!!!!!!!!! Welcome back!!!
Yazmin, that's a great point about supplements taken (and studied) in isolation vs. in combination.
My ideal is to be to eventually transition off nearly all supplements (once my body's natural balance and nutrient levels are restored) and get my nutrients from organic whole foods. The reason for that is similar... I'm sure there are combinations of micronutrients working in synergy that science won't know about for decades. In the meantime, the nutrients and micronutrients are combined perfectly and synergistically in organic whole foods, so I don't feel I will need to study all the scientific studies about each micronutrient and their interactions... since nature does it for me. Does that make sense?
Obviously, for now, I am taking QUITE a few supplements to restore the imbalance from years of lack of sunshine, too much chemical exposure, and awful eating habits. I will stay on them until I am totally healthy and whole. Beyond that, I don't believe I'll be taking dozens of supplements every day like I am now. Anyone else thinking they will take a similar approach (taper off once your body's natural balance is restored)?
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Anom! So glad you are back!
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She's baaaaaakkkkkk!
Sigh of relief. . .
I knew you would say that Anom. These studies get headlines but are often so full of bs. It reminded me so much of that study that said Vit C caused cancer. It was given to lung canceer patients in very small amounts, and they had recurrances. It could have been a lot of other things, but was blamed on the C. Maybe it was the chemo. Who knows.Remember gals, it is not a single thing we are doing here. We are finding balance.
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