natural girls
Comments
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Welcome back anom!! We missed you. xoxoxoxo
What I remember about vitamin C reports some months ago in the news was the broadcast that studies concluded vitamin C didn't help protect health much for cancer patients. Apparently, what they failed to mention was the riduculously pitiful amount of vitamin C people were instructed to take, like 50mg per day. The breastcancerchoices site has an audio recording of Dr Levy talking about vitamin C: http://www.breastcancerchoices.org/drlevy
anom, was you who was less than persuaded by the China Study by Dr Campbell? I'm in the final stretch of this book right now and he sure toots his own horn about how meticulous he was in doing his research. Yet, in chapter after chapter he dwells excessively on 'associations'.
I know enough about these studies to know that you have to delve into some details in order to make heads or tails out of the information. Yet, I'm not quite up to speed on how to determine the wheat from the chaff. It's my understanding that it's flimsy to base a conclusion on associations, that something more robust, more cause-and-effect is needed to reach a scientific conclusion. How am I doing? hot? warm? cold?
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HELLO ANOM
. You have so been missed here. Welcome back and please stay
. I agree with you Vivre, this study is very limited and I, for one, will not give it any thought. HUGS TO ALL, have to get my kiddos to school. Jenny.
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You are right althea.
Here is a link that starts the discussion about why observational studies should not be used to reach a conclusion.
http://www.utas.edu.au/sciencelinks/exdesign/TD2A.HTM
A great example of the problem with epidemiological studies (comparing populations of people to one another) is shown by by Shaving Study.
Researchers studied men who shaved every day vs men who shaved less often. They found that men who shave less often had statitically significant higher incidence of heart disease.
The researchers were very well aware that shaving has nothing to do with heart disease -
but it proved how easy it is come to an incorrect conclusion - i.e. Shaving everyday prevents heart disease.
(The reason for the difference is some other variable - some suggestions were the fact the men who shaved less also led a different lifestyle - they were less likely to be married. They werer shorter, and so on.)
The associations you are talking about are an example of taking this problem a step further.
I am anxious to hear what anom will tell you about it, too.
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Okay, I'm chilling out about the B studies...thank you vivre and anom. I'll keep taking my B as prescribed with the rest of my supplements.
Crunchypoodle...I too am hoping to decrease the supplements at some point although I do realize it is very hard to get all that we need from our organic food only. I really feel my high dose of D has helped me tremendously. Living in the northeast I'm sure I'm not getting enough D from the sun alone.
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Adding my voice to the Anom chorus: Welcome back!
We missed you!0 -
Oh, thanks, you guys. You are the best. I've missed you too.
Althea, you are hot, not cold or warm in nailing down all the sloppy "associations" in THE CHINA STUDY. This book is an example of outrageous guessing passing itself off as science.
If memory serves me, in one part of the book where he identifies a part of the US which had high breast cancer rates. He stated the women there were affluent. He then guessed that affluence would cause them to eat more meat. And also guessed that they would also take HRT. So, on the basis of one assumption and two guesses he determined a "scientific fact." He discards all other affluent pockets in the US which do not have high rates of breast cancer.
THE CHINA STUDY is full of this kind of thing. Graduate student Chris Masterjohn did a point by point refutation of the book. Campbell was in the process of trying to address the rebuttal but then copped out because Masterjohn wasn't a PhD. A twelve year-old with a computer could refute this book if they were assigned to fact check it and ask, "show me the evidence you used to make these conclusions?"
Also, Campbell misrepresented the findings of the actual China Study he refers to.
See http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/China-Study.html
I'm not saying vegetarianism is wrong-headed. It's just that Dr. Campbell doesn't make the case with his series of wacky associations and outright misrepresentations.
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OMG!!! Anom is back!!!! I wish you could have seen my BIG smile when I saw your post!!!! You have been missed!!!!!
xoxoxoxoxoPatty
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Welcome back from me as well, Anom!
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Pill, Yes I agree about observational studies being lower on the food chain of persuasive evidence. Other kinds of studies are more highly valued because they are larger and/or contain a placebo group.
But, on the other hand, finding significance often it comes down to looking at each study on its own merits --- whether it's an observational or the more valued double-blind placebo-controlled study. How large is it? Were they using relative risk stats? But often it comes down to exactly what were they looking at and does this matter to us? If someone adds vitamin C to a bunch of cancer cells in a test tube and the cells grow, how do we judge that?
Sometimes doctors make treatment decisions based on the higher valued studies even tho they only show a 3% "benefit" which is passed off to the patient as cure. "Benefit" may mean a toxic, horrible quality of life treatment reduced tumor size but had no survival benefit. Or it may mean the treatment had a four month survival benefit.
The same with population (epidemiological) studies. If people in New Jersey eat more tomatoes and get less glaucoma, can we conclude tomatoes prevent glaucoma?
anom
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Hey Lorraine, thanks for the article but could you sum it up for me? All those big words just make my feeble mind spin, lol.
Do you girls think that whole food vitamins would be better to take and maybe more safe? Do you think that since most of us are juicing, eating mostly organic and not eating sugar, white flour, not drinking alcohol etc and etc that maybe we don't need high does of vitamins??
Patty
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So nice to see you back, Anom!
One question I still have about the studies that involve high dose B vitamins and some of us who have been on either singular B supplements (like Biotin) or an incomplete complex (like Metanx, which is just 3 of the B's) is... I've always heard that the B's should always been taken together and in balance, and that taking them individually is not good because your body has to work harder to balance the excesses. I rationalized that it was okay to take B6 for neuropathy during chemo, because that was a specific, excessive condition I was treating, and then Metanx seemed okay to specifically address high homocysteine levels. But I guess what I'm wondering is, if you don't have something out of whack like one of those conditions, is it perhaps not a good idea to take B's individually? So getting back to those studies, if you give an excess of one or two or three Bs (like in the study originally cited) to healthy people, are you possibly upsetting a natural balance that can lead to a health condition? Deanna
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Hi Deanna,
Nice to see you again too.
About "the natural balance of Bs." This seems to be an urban legend. I remember years ago PREVENTION magazine refused to address the Bs individually. Then people began writing in that when they took a "balanced B complex" they wouldn't get the same results as when they took (just an example) B6 separately. I remember the story of a woman with terrible PMS and ten pounds of water gain which didn't change until she took high B6. So PREVENTION changed its Vitamin B (complex only) policy.
If there is an optimal B balance, how come some of us can get rid of peeling lips only with B2?
My impression is that certain physical events use up specific B vits, e.g., pregnancy, thus B6 for morning sickness. So the B Complexes may not address the specifics of a condition. I guess it's just trial and error. Oh, dear, you definitely didn't want to hear that.
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It's all trial and error, isn't it?! No matter which path we choose. We try out what we believe will create the best balance in our bodies and go with it - hoping it will prove effective.
Anom, how do you feel about Tocotrienols supplementation? There is a separate thread for it, but just wondering if you had an opinion about using it as a preventative for recurrence.
It is really so good to have you back! Everything is right again in the world (well, almost!)
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Damn Anom, you are amazing!
Oops, did I just swear?
My bad.
(But I meant it)
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Just wondering, there are so many probiotics out there and I'm a bit confused as to which one I should be taking. MY ND prescribed HMF Replete which is a powder you sprinkle on food. The problem is that I'm trying to order my supplements online and they don't carry that brand. Then there's the question of how many billion bacteria one needs to take. There are tons of brands that have 4,5 and 6 billion and then there are some that have 60 billion....is that much really necessary? Your input would be greatly appreciated..
Thanks,
Terri
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Great question Teri, I would love to know also. I will try my question again:
Do you girls think that whole food vitamins would be better to take and maybe more safe? Do you think that since most of us are juicing, eating mostly organic and not eating sugar, white flour, not drinking alcohol etc and etc that maybe we don't need high does of vitamins??
Patty
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Deni, Thank you for the referral to Life Extensions. Looks amazing. I currently take Doctors Purest but will certainly give L/E a try. Is it possible to ask them about combining supplements?
Fairy, I read your post about Genestein with great interest especially since it is a supplement recommended by my NatDoc. Just wondering what your thoughts are about fermented soy? I spoke with one of the manufacturers of Haelan at a conference and was quite impressed although I have yet to purchase it. He did not advise taking non fermented soy. Is anyone using Haelan or non fermented soy?
Interesting video : http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1766114383986456518#
Spring, may you and Deni (your husband) have non eventful and successful surgeries. Will surely be sending positive thoughts your way.
Warm regards,
Carole
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OH! Thank the Lord, ANOM is back!!!!! I have been thinking of you daily my lovely!!! We all missed you soooo much!!!!
L
ox
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Patty, you are so funny! I posted the article because there is so much confusion with phytoestrogens and the like, so I found that article very interesting. I don't eat soy on purpose, but I used to do a lot of flax oil, I honestly don't know what to think about soy and flax, such a dilema!! After reading that article, it seems both would help us??
L
ox
oh my goodness, I am grinning from ear to ear that Anom is back! LOL!!
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Thanks anom for your comments on the China Study. sigh It's too bad the science is flimsy. He sure seems to be on the right track in believing a whole foods, plant based diet will protect health!
I'm finding the last part of the book the most interesting part, where he talks about the committee for determining nutritional advice for the public, and how everyone else on one of the committees was nothing but a pitbull for guarding the status quo of meat and dairy industries. I wonder how different his career could have been had he been unfettered by those protecting the status quo.
Now I'll have to figure out what I'll read next.
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I have been very touched by the amount of PMs I have received offering to pray for me.
There is now a large circle of people who are either praying or sending positive light tome on Wednesday between 12 and 2 pm. I am taking great comfort in this and want to thank each of you. My mind will be focused on receiving that positive energy during my prep for surgery.
You gals are the best.
Love Mer
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Merilee - I have been thinking about you! I will be sending those vibes between 12 and 2 tomorrow. Be well.
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Carole - very interesting video. Makes for even more confusion about soy. But, from other things that i have read, if I am understanding correctly, it is the modified soy - like that found in supplements, that is the "bad" soy. Fermented soy and soy such as tofu, tempeh, etc. is good - as long as it is not GMO. I think?! But, yikes! Around every corner there is another school of thought....sigh...
Thanks for your thoughts for my husband. I appreciate your kindness.
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Merilee ~ I will also be praying for you tomorrow, especially between 12 & 2. (((Hugs))) and I'm already praying for an easy, flawless surgery and the best of outcomes. Deanna
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Merilee: Hugs to you for tomorrow and prayers everything goes well. I'll be thinking of you btwn 12 & 2.
Terri
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When there are other things that are proven that we can do, and since soy and flax are so controversial, I try to avoid both as much as possible, though I do not have as much of a problem with flax, as long as it is not in oil form, which my ND says goes rancid easily. Since more than 90% of soy is GMO, and it is the most sprayed crop, that is why I think it causes problems for us, even if it might be preventative for Asian women.
As far as just consuming whole foods and not taking supplements-I use to think this was possible until I read Dr. Strand and others say how much we would have to consume to get enough nutrients. I just cannot eat that much food, and so I feel safer supplementing. However, I do not do as much as some of you gals do, but then again, many of you are still in treatments so of course you need to be more heavy handed.
Don't forget our noontime prayers tomorrow for Crunchy and Merillee. I sometimes have a hard time keeping everyone's surgeries straight, so I hope the rest of you will remind us, so that we can do the same for you. There is such power in prayer.
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I heard all those joyous screams coming from my computer: "ANOM IS BACK,"ANOM IS BACK," so I turned it on....Welcome back, Anom.
And when you write: "Benefit" may mean a toxic, horrible quality of life treatment reduced tumor size but had no survival benefit. Or it may mean the treatment had a four month survival benefit.....
We can never say it often enough on this forum. But I feel there are more and more of us, patients, feeling this way.
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Vivre I was asking about whole food supplements. I asked if these might be more safe and better for us. I realize I can't eat everything I need!!!! I would be eating 24 hrs a day. Right now it feels like I'm taking supplements 24 - 7 lol.
Prayers for Mer and Crunchy tomorrow!!!!!!
Patty
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Welcome back Anom!!! It is a pleasure to read your posts and to learn from them.
Julia: Wishing you a speedy recovery tomorrow.
Merillee: You will be in my heart and prayers for everything good.
To everyone else: This is a season of thanks and I am thankful for the support and help that I have gotten from the sisters on this board.
(((((hugs)))))
Mandy
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I will be there at noon tomorrow for Crunchy and Merilee. I hope your surgeries go as well as mine did yesterday. I had my 6th...5th on that side...surgery since diagnosis. This one was just to put back in the TE...but apparently I am doing something right because he decided I didn't need a drain. COOL! Felt great. Got home at 4, went to dinner at 6. Please pray for me to NOT get yet another infection so that I can finish this process sometime!!! Prayers and wishing all good things to all in their upcoming surgeries. Thank you to all who have directed me towards my new healthy ways. This has to be helping with my stamina following these surgeries I've been having constantly.
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