natural girls
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Hi Amber!
Yes, the 2 hydroxyestrone is the good stuff, the 16 is the bad stuff, so the 2 needs to be high and the 16 needs to be low, the supplement DIM is supposed to improve the 2:16 ratio.......
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Amberyba, part of what I learned at a Natural/Alternative therapies conference I went to on Sat. was that phytoestrogens (such as flaxseed, soy, wild yam, licorice, and also found in legumes and many fruits) in our system will crowd out the aggressive estrogens, just like good fats, such as the Omega 3's, (also found in flax, as well as fatty fish), crowd out the bad fats We know what the bad estrogens do, but learned that the bad fats, besides contributing to cardiac problems, can increase cell division during tumor formation phase. So, this goes right in line with what this study you mentioned showed, that adding something with good estrogenic, as well as good lipid value, could crowd out the bad elements that cause the tumor to grow.
This is just a small portion of what was discussed at this conference. I'd like to condense it and just put out the highlights or maybe it will be easier to just put it out little by little.
I also came across an article by Susan Weed at menopause-metamorphis.com/phytoestrogens, which really goes into detail about all the phytoestrogens and their effects.
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LiLi-My compounding pharm said that sometimes menopausal women do not metabolize DIM or I3C very well. He advised me to switch to myomin, so I am trying that. It is a mix of some Chinese herbs. My chiro is really interested to see if this makes a difference for me because he noticed similar results from menopausal women. My ratio was really good on the blood test but half on the urine. This is one of the things I plan to discuss with the naturopath.
Someone mentioned that estrogen levels fluctuate. I heard that this is true for women who are not menopausal yet. That is why my doctor said she recommends the saliva test for younger women. It can be done a different times of the month and the results are compared.
I know it sounds like I have a lot of docs, well I do. I have no qualms about doctor shopping and they all seem to be better at one thing than another. After giving up on my regular doctors because they kept pushing the drugs, my first chiro I went to helped me with nutrition and detox, but I was not sure she understood the whole hormone thing enough. My second chiro specializes in thermography and I have a lot of faith in his experience. My third chiro, a Chinese doctor who practices chiro because he has more freedom, is a guru with pain, and got rid of my condritis, after no one else could. Then I found the gyn who specializes in hormones, but she is very pricey so I might just have the DN analyze my tests because he seems to have done a lot in this area. We shall see. It just makes me mad that none of this is covered by insurance, but they would cover my onc, mammo's which would cost them 5 times more!
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Thanks everyone for all the detox tips. I'm going to look into them.
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thanks Loraine and Rose.....
i am a fan of Susan Weed too!
I am definitely hooked on juicing, I am adding little by little the greens, I can't believe how good it makes me feel....and my skin is improving.....I developed Roscea on my face in the last year, and the past 2 days my face looks more youthful and the redness is diminishing. right now I am sipping a carrot/celery/parsley/kale juice, it is delectable.
the thing I have found out is that leafy things just shoot out of my centrifugal juicer. so I juice the stems.
Welcome all newcomers.
Vivre, I am like you..."no Qualms about doctor shopping'' they have their expertise and bias. Interesting what you have experienced...I have found similar things with my onc and gyn....they sometimes listen to my thoughts on what I have learned and sometimes not. My breast surgeon seems to have heard it all...and grins when I share stuff with him....Medical doctors are obligated to prescribe meds. I find it refreshing when they don't push meds and do not discourage alternatives.
Off to a long day on the golf course, watching my son play....the walk is difficult....this will be my third time following my son on this particular course...the first time I did it I was delirious....hope I do better this time....If the tour directors allowed golf carts...I would not hesitate to pay to ride...LOL.
Off I go!!!!! Good day Ladies
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Thanks for the info. Vivre. I am 47 and had my last period during my first chemo treatment in September. My doctors all still consider me pre-menopausal although I haven't had a period since September. I'll have to ask my doctor about the saliva test and see if he'd rather me do that one next time. I'll also mention myomin to him when I see him again in September, especially if my ratio is still off.
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Hi all. I just got back from my onc appointment. Things did not go well at all. He has scared me and my hubby into thinking I have to take femara. He said if I don't and the cancer has spread then there is no treatment for it. I sobbed all the way home. I did not do well with tamoxifen. He also said if I don't do the rads I should have a mastectomy. I have already been thinking about that and will probably have both breasts removed. What I don't understand is if the cancer has spread is femara or any of the inhibitors going to kill that cancer? I should have asked him that but I just thought of it. None of this makes any sense. If anybody has any input I would appreciate it. I'm a mess
God Bless Us All
Patty
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Patty,
I am sorry.
I will PM you...Spring.
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Patty,
how absurd, your onc. makes me mad.....my sister had >1cm and more lymph nodes IDC, grade 3. her oncologist pushed the antihormonals too. but she didn't do it, now she is 10 years in remission.
my onc. wanted me to take tamoxifen.....but when he knew I had firmly decided not. he told me that if the cancer came back then the tamoxifen would be an option.
HOw does your onc know the cancer has spread? The antihormonals: tamoxifen/ femara/ AI's give no guarantee you will not have a recurrence.
about the mastectomy, my surgeon told me that standard treatment is radiation following lumpectomy/partial mastectomy. when I went through radiation, I did contemplate stopping and asking for a mastectomy. now a year later I am glad I kept the breast. but different people react differently to radiation.
Please know that there are options out there. You are not alone and many women have opted out of tamoxifen and AI's.
You had just one lymph node +, that lymph node did a great job, Did you have Chemo?
My sister went thru chemo and rads and no AI's/tamoxifen; does some alternative and natural things
I went thru rads and quit Tamoxifen after 3 months, use alternatives.
You will get thru this, the first year after diagnosis was very hard for me...everything scared me....and I researched options.
God Bless in Jesus, may he strengthen you!
Amber
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All,
I drink both White and Green teas, and needed to reorder recently and so started wondering if there was any difference.
Found this Interesting Article saying White is like way better. Just FYI...
3x the antioxidents
less caffiene
better flavor (less bitter)Spring.
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I have never heard of white tea. Where do you order yours from?
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Mum,
Tazo has white tea, you sometimes see it in supermakets. I get mine on Amazon.com "grocery". Much cheaper to order in boxes of "6". My DH and I gave up coffee and now drink tea. It feels much healthier!
Patty, I am still thinking of you!
Spring.
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Sea,
I agree, your Dr. could have sat down and calmly explained the stats with you because your forgoing all other treatments. If he's concerned about a possible spread then he would have you on chemo. I think he chose his words wrong? I didn't think an AI killed any rogue cancer cells. That's what chemo and radiation is suppose to do. You might have had him a little flustered because most women just agree with whatever they say about further treatments.
Stay calm, and think out your options. What do you think is best to do for yourself keeping your original diagnosis in mind. Then go back and talk with him again. Nothing is locked into cement yet. These decisions are so hard. I'll be praying that you make the right one for yourself.
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Seaotter, I'm so sorry he scared you like that! And it does carry a lot of weight coming from the expert who is taking care of you, thereby making it even harder to say no to his recommendations. Actual statistics of reoccurrence in your case, relative, not absolute, would probably make you feel a lot better if they show that your odds of reoccurrence are very low. And there are so many alternative things you can do with nutrition and lifestyle changes to improve your odds even more. Remember that lots of the women on this board are also saying no to the AIs.
And from the conference I attended this weekend sponsored by the Annieappleseed project, radiation was also discussed. It does lower the risk of local reoccurrence in the same breast, but doesn't at all affect the risk of reoccurrence in the opposite breast. I'm trying to get the rest of that information out about how tumors are formed and what foods and supplements can affect each stage of the tumor formation, as well as angiogenesis (where the tumor starts growing new blood vessels and spreading beyond the area}, and how nutrients can slow that down. Most doctors get very little training in this area of nutrition, while for the Alternative physicians, this is the probably the most important aspect of treatment.
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sea, jeez talk about a lousy bedside manner!! I know you will get awesome support from the amazing women on these boards, hang in there you will be fine!!!
L
ox
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Oh girls thank you all for you words of encouragement they mean so much to me. I only had 3 chemo treatments. They about killed me so my onc said no more. I guess that also makes me more concerned. He did tell me if I didn't do the al's my chances of recurrence is 30%. Now that I have had time to sit and think I should have ask him the absolute risk.I also should have asked how many studies have been done on women that were on hrt for 11 years that got breast cancer and the recurrence rate for them. I'm post menopausal, my ovaries do not work so the only bit of estrogen I'm getting is from my adrenal glands. I did tell him that and he was speechless for a minute then said you still need the al's. He also said if I don't do the rads I should have a mast. The reason I'm thinking of just having both breasts removed is because I have very dense tissue and tons of calcifications. I also had a tumor removed years ago in my good breast. I don't want the al's because I don't want to feel like a 80 year old just yet. He also told me I was the third women in his office today that are saying no to rads. Thanks again, I new I could count on you girls!
God Bless Us All
Patty
Dx 1/22/2009, IDC, <1cm, Stage IIa, Grade 1, 1/30 nodes, ER+/PR+, HER2-0 -
Patty, you made me
! Go Girl!!! 0 -
yay Patty!! you made your doc speechless!! You do have a voice, you know your stuff, keep at it, everything will work out!!
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Patty, the first thing you need to do is find a new onc. Anyone who makes you that upset is not worth the bucks you pay him! If you went to the AA conference you are already on a mindset that you understand that oncs only know one way to tackle cancer and there are lots of others. My aunt is a 25 year survivor. Back in those days, they did surgery and that was it. She had no chemo, no rads, no drugs. You might contact the Blockcenter in Chicago. They believe in integrated treatment and I know Dr. Block speaks at a lot of seminars. Maybe he could recommend and Dr. in your area who is more open minded. God bless. We are here for you.
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Patty ~ Have you had a second opinion from anyone? If not, now might be a good time to gather all your medical records (mammo films, biopsy report, surgical report, chemo log, etc.) and sit down with another onc, and maybe even a third. Not all oncs agree on what is needed, and at the very least, you can hopefully find one with whom you have more rapport than your current one. It's usually your medical onc who does your follow up app'ts. for 5 years. So you certainly need to find one for whom you have a lot of respect and trust -- even if you don't always agree with him on everything. And maybe a second opinion doc can clarify some things better in your mind. So sorry you had a bad experience today. (((Hugs))) Deanna
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seaotter, your onc sounds like an arrogant asshole! Boy howdy it chaps my hide the way doctors treat us the minute we have an opinion that's different from theirs. I had the same thing happen when I finished chemo and it was time to ramp up for surgery. I will forever be grateful for the reconstruction section of this forum. I learned of diep reconstruction and even better, the wonderful doctors in new orleans who are masters at this surgery.
When I told my medical oncologist and my local surgeon that I wanted to travel for my surgery, they about scared me half to death. They didn't appear to have even heard of diep reconstruction, yet they had plenty of bad things to say about it, and the doctors I was seeking out also. Fortunately, I have local friends who used to live in new orleans, and as it turned out personally knew the doctor lined up to do my mast. Hands down, I had the BEST medical experience in my life when I got my surgery in new orleans.
It wasn't until afterwards that I could conclude that my local doctors were arrogant assholes scaring me for no good reason whatsoever. They sure as hell don't have anything to be arrogant ABOUT. I just passed the 4-year anniversary of that whole episode and I'm still getting bouts of ptsd from it. I'm surprised I didn't get shingles from head to toe I was so stressed.
There's no guarantee that you'll be cancer-free if you take femara. We each have a risk of recurrence with each new breath we take. I lurk in the stage IV area and every time I read someone's story, it just seems like a giant crapshot in the sky as to who gets a recurrence and who doesn't. Scientific studies focus on specific things, and we don't live in a vacuum. There's a cazillion variables in every person's life that can affect the outcome. And there's PLENTY of things we can do on our own that science poo-poo's, such as antioxidants, and iodine, and DIM and lifestyle changes.
Take some deep breaths and make a list of options. Your heart will tell you which one to choose. {{{{{{{{{hugs to seaotter}}}}}}}}}} and a big thwack on your onc's forehead!
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Wow, Althea, that was well said!
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Seaotter, sweetie!
What Althea said about getting post traumatic stress is true. That can be worse than cancer. You have to get any PTSD causers out of your life, the ones who push your fear buttons.
I don't know what the hell stories he's making up about Femara. You need to ditch this guy. Blow him off. He's a jerk. Don't let the jerks get to you. He seems very annoyed that you're questioning his recommendation and you want to make your own choices.
You may get some satisfaction if you tell yourself and family you had to fire him for incompetence.
Hey, let's all go out for Virgin Margarita's and assemble a goon squad. We can find out where lives and boooooooo loudly.
<
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I've got a better idea. Let's drink some REAL margaritas and watch while a troop of monkeys sling their poop at the aforesaid oncologist and his expensive car that's probably paid for by femara prescriptions. The amount of stress that jerkwad is causing more likely to cause a recurrence than anything else in your life! #%&*%#!
I was apprehensive last year when it came time to tell my onc I stopped taking tamoxifen. Fear mongering was one of several responses I anticipated, so I was caught off guard when he was so nonchalant. He didn't bombard me scary statistics, he didn't recommend other drugs. He just said that most women tolerate tamoxifen just fine and others find the side effects unbearable.
I left there wondering if I really needed to take tamoxifen for the 26 months that I got in. Come to think of it, I don't think he ever gave me a stats or percentages at all regarding hormone therapy. He wouldn't track my estrogen levels. Never mentioned an oncotype test. Never mentioned the test that evaluates that cyp26 thingy which reveals whether a person is metabolizing tamoxifen effectively. He'd probe for lumps or bumps that shouldn't be there, poke my vein for blood for a cbc and tumor marker test and write scrips for tamoxifen.
I have a $25 copay, and they're still sending me a bill for $22 that was leftover from my crappy insurance, and I've long since gone to collections over the $300 labwork bills I can't pay either. Every time I buy supplements I can't afford, I remind myself it's worth dodging the bill collectors so that I won't ever have to participate in our 'health care' system again.
Honestly, we should just start calling it for what it is -- our disease detection and management system. The last time I saw my onc was June 1 last year. I doubt I'll ever go back to him. The doctors around here, and apparently elsewhere also, just don't seem to know as much as what I think they should know.
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Good Morning Natural Girls,
I think we might need a smile this morn.
This video was made in the Antwerp , Belgium Central (Train) Station on the 23rd of March 2009. . . . with no warning to the passengers passing through the station, at 8:00 am a recording of Julie Andrews singing 'Do, Re, Mi' begins to play on the public address system..
As the bemused passengers watch in amazement, some 200 dancers begin to appear from the crowd and station entrances. They created this amazing stunt with just two rehearsals!Enjoy!
click HERE <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EYAUazLI9k&annotation_id=annotation_72265&feature=iv>
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New Web Search Tool Shows What Pesticides are on Your Food
Since major industry wheat groups announced their plans to force GE wheat onto the market, and OCA and other farm and public interest groups came out against those plans, the controversy has been building steadily.
The Pesticide Action Network has launched a new online searchable database designed to make the public problem of pesticide exposure visible and more understandable. Whether you want to find out what's in your apple juice, milk, peanut butter, or bottled water, this innovative tool links pesticide food residue data with the toxicology for each chemical, making this information easily searchable for the first time.
Learn more: http://www.organicconsumers.org/articles/article_18307.cfm
-The average child gets 5+ servings of pesticides in their food and water each day.
-The pesticide Atrazine is so toxic it is banned in Europe, but it is used so widely in the U.S., it is found in 71% of the U.S. drinking water.
-Currently, over 400 pesticides can be legally used in the U.S.. For example, apples can be sprayed up to 16 times with 36 different pesticides. None of these chemicals are present in organic foods.
-According to the US Department of Health and Human Services, organophosphate pesticides (OP) are now found in the blood of 95% of Americans tested, and the levels are twice as high in blood samples taken from children. Exposure to OPs is linked to hyperactivity, behavior disorders, learning disabilities, developmental delays and motor dysfunction.
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Mad Cow News of the Week:
Scientist Warns that Farmed Fish Could be a Source of Mad Cow Disease
"In a paper that shows just how strange our modern world has become, Robert P. Friedland, neurologist from the University of Louisville, warns that farmed fish could be at risk of developing transmissible spongiform encephalopathy, a form of mad cow disease. Currently, farmed fish are fed cow slaughterhouse waste. Friedland and co-authors raise the issue in the Journal of Alzhemier's Disease and call on food regulators to ban feeding cow bone or meat to farmed fish..." Learn more: http://www.organicconsumers.org/articles/article_18313.cfm
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American Medical Association Passes Resolution Supporting Organic and Sustainable Food
The American Medical Association has approved a new policy resolution in support of practices and policies within health care systems that promote and model a healthy and ecologically sustainable food system. Learn more: http://www.organicconsumers.org/articles/article_18297.cfm
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Thanks Simvog,
Yeeesh, I've been looking up a few items on the pesticide list. I had asparagus in my hands to purchase which wasn't organic, then I saw where it came from. No thanks. I found out bok choy comes from China. Not a chance. I saw the box it was shipped in. We can't grow bok choy here? Organically? We know where the FDA is, they're having lunch at Monsanto and Dow Chemical.
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you girls are the best, Althea, you said it wonderfully and Vivre too about getting good doctors...I smiled the whole time I read everyone's post.
Thanks for the pesticide info: It makes me sick to think about.....this morning I was looking over the sale strawberries, wanting some, but knowing they are bound to be SPRAYED....the produce man tried to correct me and say they weren't sprayed with pesticides, but with something to stop bacteria from harming them.....well now that I think about it....bacteria are living organism too. He said the chemicals wouldn't hurt humans...that he hadn't been hurt by eating them....so I just cooled down and went for the organic carrots. I did pick up a small GINGER ROOT to juice....Rosemary you make me laugh about wher the FDA is....i will second the lunch idea...Simvog that is great that organics are gaining support...will read your link.
hoping everyone has a blessed day!!!]\
Amber
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