natural girls
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rgiuff, exactly, I was just reading that myself! So if a tumor is 100% for both?? still trying to figure out how that works, shouldn't they have cancelled out LOL!! I don't know! I will keep reading!
L
ox
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I would think (and that's dangerous when I do!) that someone that works with bioidentical hormone replacement could get a read on our estrogen (what little I have left) and tell us how much progesterone we need to get our hormones in balance. Just don't add estrogen. Does that make any sense? Maybe that would stop my hot flashes
.God Bless Us All
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I think the thing that a lot of people don't understand (myself included until recently!), that "Estrogen" isn't just one thing, its a bunch of hormones classed as Estrogen. We all have protective hormones which are under the class of Estrogen, for instance Estriol is a safe hormone that protects us against BC, so we really can't just lump all Estrogen together as bad. The bad one is Estradiol, so if we have balance I think that is key. It doesn't make sense at all to think we have to get rid of all of our estrogen, it doesn't "feed" breast cancer.
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Hi Fairy! I just googled "does estrogen feed breast cancer" and read this: www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/11/AR2006041101450.html very interesting! ·0
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Lorainne, I guess that's why that "ratio" estrogen test, the 2:16 is important.
Have you taken your 2:16 yet? I keep drinking more than 3 8-ounce glasses of liquid!!!! (They want you to have very intense urine the morning you do it!!) I think I will become dehydrated! LOL.
Spring.
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Seaotter,
That article is over 3 years old.
They have since proven that giving women estrogen for menopause symptoms is bad.
In SOME breast cancers estrogen stimulates the cancer to divide or grow. That is WHY people think it is "feeding it".
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Spring! not yet, I am going to do it in a couple of weeks, not looking forward to the restricted liquids! aaaaahhh!!
Dawnbelle: Its only estradiol, one of the many in the class of "estrogens" that stimulates breast tissue, that's why the 2:16 ratio is important, the 2 is good, the 16 is bad, when you have a good ratio, then the estradiol isn't dominant and doesn't stimulate the tissue (breast, uterus etc).
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Spring and Fairy- No one ever told me to do anything different before my estrogen tests, and I have had three. What exactly did they tell you and why?
Rose-I love Dr. Northrup's book. It was the first book I read after dx, and taught me so much. I was really struggling with the whole arimidex issue and when Dr. Northrup said that when we are overreacting to something, it is our body's way of telling us what we should do. It was such a relief to hear a doctor tell me that the anxiety I had over this drug was something I should take to heart. I tossed the pills and never looked back. I even sent her a thankyou note for helping me to find a holistic path. She also explained all the risk factors that are usually not listed, and those fit me, and helped me to understand how I got bc and what I could do to make sure it did not happen again. It was so empowering.
Rosemary-we are still waiting for you the make the BIG Decision on that juicer so we don't have to! LOL
Seaotter-Switzerland sounds great! I like the chocalate idea. I may be going to Provence in Aug. though, even though it will be horribly hot I am sure. Maybe I will head over the mountians!
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Vivre, spring and I ordered the 2:16 ratio urine test, when it arrived the instructions said to limit liquids to 3 x 8ozs the day before, because they want the first morning urine to be very concentrated. I just plan on doing the urine test every few months to make sure its in range, less expensive than going to the naturopath every time! When I did the hormone tests with the doc she never mentioned limiting liquids the day before, just the usual fasting from midnight the night before.
L
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Hi ladies,
Now that summer is in full swing, I bought a watermelon. I juiced a piece of it this morning, rind and all, and it was GREAT! I loved it! I wondered if it might make my eyes cross with the rind in there, but I was very pleasantly surprised. So vivre, there's at least one thing you can juice where you actually end up with less to dispose of afterwards -- unless you eat the rind too. lol
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dawnbelle! oh my goodness you just made my day!!! how sweet are you! Thank you!
Please don't give up! there is so much flippin info it makes your head spin, really.....
Heres a very brief outline of the ratio thing, it has taken me months and months to try and figure this stuff out, just keep reading and researching its so worth it!
Studies Show that Breast Cancer Risk is Modifiable and Measurable.
The news media lumps all estrogen together and reports estrogen can promote tumor growth. However, there are many types of estrogen. Not all types promote tumor growth. Researchers at Rockefeller University have found that the body metabolizes estrogens into several different metabolites that can impact cancer development.
One metabolite, 2-hydroxyestrone (2-OHE1), tends to inhibit cancer growth. Another, 16-a-hydroxyestrone (16-a-OHE1), actually encourages tumor development.
A woman's "biochemical individuality" determines which of these metabolites (2 or 16) predominates. Studies have shown that measuring the ratio of these two metabolites in the urine provides an important indication of risk for future development of estrogen-sensitive cancers. The studies also show that this risk is modifiable!
Women with breast cancer have lower 2/16 ratios. Studies have suggested that women with lower ratios may also have a poorer prognosis.
Now a new test can give us even more information. 4-OH estrogen is actually the most harmful estrogen metabolite. Tests to measure the 4-OH level have not been available until this year. Now we can get a full picture of a woman's estrogen metabolism, predict her risk for breast cancer and modify that risk with simple lifestyle measures. The test can be repeated to show that the risk has changed.
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Lorraine ~ Thanks for the above. Very helpful! So I have another question then about estrogen. How would you (in laymen's terminology) explain the difference between a woman who is 100% ER+ vs. one who is maybe 25% or 50% ER+. I still can't quite get my head around what that difference actually means. Deanna
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Hey ladies... I've been reading but avoiding posting on this topic for some time, I was dx at 29, and like so many of you had an extremely healthy lifestyle to the extent that I gave up using off the shelf deoderant, all cosmetics were paraben free and at least 60% of my food was organic, I'd been living like this for 7 years prior to being dx. So when I was dx at 29 I was completely against anything that hinted of being natrual.
I'm now 2 years from dx and I guess I'm wanting to 'make friends' with those things that may help my body fight. I just want to say thanks Deanna for the book recommendation I've ordered and looking forward to reading them.
I've a question on the 2:16 ratio testing thing, if it tells you that you are at 16 or slightly lower, will it recommend how you can reduce the estrogence dominance in your body? Also what's the test called?
Thanks so much for all your posts, it's definately re-converted me to looking into other ways of keeping this blasted thing at bay.
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Vivre,
I think I'm going to take the 30 day free trial being offered at Vitamix. I'd like to see for myself if the fiber would be more filling, then maybe not have to eat lunch. It might work for losing weight. After I juice, I can still eat an hour later. This might kill 2 birds with one spin of the blades. Plus, I keep thinking of that easy cleanup. It's calling to me.
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Morning girls-and welcome to the newcomers. I know it can seem overwhelming at first, but eventually it all makes sense. Mauve, who knows what triggers our cancer. It is a combination of things. We just try to assess our own personal health and do as much as we can to attack.
I am going to take all my tests to a naturaopath who will do a consult for $50 I am still in a quandary about certain numbers. For instance my 2:16 ratio is much better with my blood test than with the urine test. Does anyone else have a general question they want me to ask? He is going to be one of my doctor bloggers on my new site, so I am really excited about getting his opinions. He said he also does phone consults, so for you ladies who may not live near a doctor who can interpret things for you, let me know and I will give you his info.
Fairy-how much do you pay for your estrogen testing?
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Seaotter,
Could you please lmk where you purchase you're pill casings?
Maureen
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dawnbelle - Sooo sorry I did not look at the date of the article. My dx was in jan and I just got so excited about what the article had to say.
Gosh, now I'm so paranoid I'm going to post something stupid
. fairy - You have probably all ready said this before but where do you order 2:16 test? Do you have to send in your pee or how does that work
althea - Did you find an organic watermelon or just scrub it really well and throw it in the juicer? I have not received my juicer yet. I can't wait!!!!
God Bless Us All
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rosemary 44: here's a link about sun exposure after radiation:
http://www.oncolink.org/experts/article.cfm?c=5&s=31&ss=117&id=1611
>>Lawrence J. Solin, MD, FACR, Professor of Radiation Oncology at the University of Pennsylvania, responds:
Patients who have undergone radiation treatment for breast cancer should be careful about sun exposure in the radiated areas, especially for the first few years after treatment. Areas of skin in the radiated fields will react more easily to sun exposure than areas of non-radiated skin. Patients who have undergone chest wall radiation are even more likely to react to sun exposure. Significant sun exposure can cause a "recall" of the radiation skin reaction, even after the acute skin reaction has resolved. If a patient is going to be outside and exposed to the sun, then the radiated skin should be covered with clothing or covered with sun block of SPF 15 or higher. Although sun protection is especially important if the patient is currently undergoing a course of radiation treatment, sun protection is also prudent for the first few years after radiation treatment.>>
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Vivre, would you ask the neutropath how reliable these estrogen tests are? For instance, my ONC office does some for me, but sort of pooh-poohs them because they can "fluctuate so much".
So, like Lorraine/Fairy, I want to do the 2:16 test to track and trend my ratio, see if DIM/I3C is helping, etc. But is it an exercise in futility if we have wild swings? (I went into menopause with chemo).
Anyway, that's my question!
Another topic: Does anybody know the difference between Stevia and Truvia? I saw a commercial last night for Truvia, saying it was Stevia?
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DDlat thank you for that. Good to know I better cover up the collarbone area.... cripes.... (hate the freakin rads...)
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Springtime
Hormones do fuctuate. I have learned that you must test at the same time of the month if you want to compare results. Estrogens are generaly highest around the 11th day after the start of you period. I read this in a book called " The Hormone alternative" that I borrowed from the library.
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Good Morning all!
Deanna! I don't know what the difference means, I will have to find out! I think the higher the percentage the better, mine was 100% ER and PR+ so does that mean they should have cancelled each other out LOL!!
Maeve, you wouldn't have a score of 16, the hydroxyestrone is called 16 hydroxyestrone, so you would get a level of your 2 hydroxyestrone which is the good one and the 16 which is the bad one, based on those numbers they would give you the ratio, the more balanced the ratio the better! For instance your 2 might be 283 (reference range is 112-656 pg/mL and your 16 might be 525 (reference range 213-680 pg/mL so your ratio would be 0.54 (reference range 0.40-1.40) hope that makes sense!
Spring and I got our test from Metametrix http://www.metametrix.com/ 800-221-4640 its called 2/16 OH Estrogen Ratio Urine Test, I believe it was about $130. It comes with all the instructions looks very high tech! You send in your pee!
Here is another link on the 2:16 ratio
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Lorraine, Vivre, and others who are doing this natural thing, I want to join you, but keep thinking about how it might be too expensive and complicated for me. Can I do this on my own, and just have occasional estrogen levels tested, or is this a very involved, more frequent process with everything paid for out of pocket? Should I look for a primary doctor who might be into the alternative therapies before I even attempt to go off the tamoxifen? It just sounds so overwhelming so I think I'm staying on the tamoxifen just because it's easier and cheaper. But I really would prefer to stop it at some point soon because I do worry about the long term side effects and don't like some of the annoying ones that I'm having now. Don't want to do more than a year and maybe even less if I can get my act together before then. Have been on it since Nov.
I'd appreciate any suggestions for how I would go about getting started. And also an idea of just how expensive it could turn out to be. The supplements, nutrition, and lifestyle changes I think I have a good grip on. It's just all the testing that I need help figuring out.
Also, if I haven't had a period since March, and never know whether or not I'm ever going to get one again, would these estrogen tests have any value in my case? Vivre, if the naturopath is not doing your tests, where are you getting them done?
Deanna, I'm wondering about the same thing myself, still researching it, because on my biopsy report it said 100% both ER and PR+, but the pathology report from lumpectomy said 50%ER and 100%PR+. So which is it and what does it mean? If I don't find the answer, I'll just have to wait for the next visit with Med Onc and ask him in Aug.
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not sure if this book has been mentioned on this thread, but i just picked it up at the library today and it's too funny for words. Called "Cancer Made Me a Shallower Person" -
http://www.amazon.com/Cancer-Made-Me-Shallower-Person/dp/0060789735
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Thanks Deb for the sun/radiation information. It's 102 in the shade here at 6PM, so I won't be worrying about getting in too much sun. I'm afraid to go outside.
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I was away for 10 days so it took me a while to catch up on all the new posts. I had the 2:16 test done twice. The first time was in November and I did the urine test. I was told to limit my intake of fluids to 24 ounces for the day(24 hour period). I did it but had a horrible dehydration headache the next day. My ratio wasn't good. My doctor told me to take DIM twice a day. I had a repeat test done in April after being on DIM for about 3 months. This time I had the blood test done...no restrictions. My ratio was worse this time. My integrative medical doctor switched me from DIM to Breast Protect to see if that helps my ratio. Breast Protect is DIM with some resveratol and calcium in it. I'm taking 2 twice a day and will recheck my ratio in September. I'm wondering if my ratio didn't really get worse but that maybe there is a difference because of the way I was tested...urine vs. blood. Hopefully the September numbers will be better.
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Rose one of the things that is so maddening to me is that we get so little support this way. In fact, I was on the phone yesterday with blue cross, trying to get someone to listen about just the point you made. There are alternatives that work, but it is cost prohibitive for some women. They will pay for all the regular treatments, and spend millions but not spend a fraction of that to run the type of tests that would indicate if there was a problem before we get cancer. I am not going to stop trying to get them to listen. In the meantime, you can get the tests done from a regular doctor if you can find one who believes in it. Otherwise, I think you might just tell your onc to either do an estrogen test, or take a hike. That is what I did. I found an obgyn who believes in hormone therapy who did the tests for me, however, I have a large deductable so, it is out of pocket right now anyway. Now if this new healthcare bill taxes me on these health benefits I am going to be really pissed!
I am not going to stop until doctors routinely take these tests to save women from cancer. If they would check our estrogen levels, our iodine levels, and our vit d and thyroid levels throughout our lives, we would not be here. It just infuriates me that we have to fight for this and that women who cannot afford it, end up with treatments that they are not happy about. If you can't find a doctor near you, I will pm my naturapath and you can call him and ask him what his specific prices are. I think he is really reasonable, and I am so happy that he will be blogging for me and helping people.
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HA! I can completely relate to that title LOL
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Loraine, thanks for sharing about the 2:16 estrogen test, it is a hard concept to grasp. it makes sense though. I remember reading a study of BC women who took flaxseed muffins daily and some took a placebo muffin, and the ones who ate the flaxseed muffins daily were the ones whose tumors decreased in size by the time of surgery. and also flax is suppose to increase excretion of estrogen in the urine, so I wonder if the bad estrogen is excreted due to the flax.
so is it the ratio 2 being the good estrogen and the 16 being the bad estrogen....?
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