Treating estrogen responsive cancer naturally

purple32

Hi Kristina,

Good luck with your surgery.  There are lots of things fo you to consider.

You may want to google DIM and IC3 to start. There are options out there . I know you will want to have a full discussion with your MO/ medical team before you make any final decisions.

In response to your post, I would like to suggest the book :" Anti Cancer- a new way of Life",

~Best Wishes!

dlb823

For those that may not be quite so far along in researching hormones (it really takes awhile for it all to click, which I think is partly due to the stress we're all under when faced with this issue), here's an article that might be helpful:

http://wellwire.com/health/women-health/conducting-the-hormonic-orchestra

In addition to Anti-Cancer (a must read!), I would also recommend Beating Cancer With Nutrition by Patrick Quillin, PhD, RD, CNS and former head of nutritional services at Cancer Centers of America.  He has some excellent information on estrogen, including:  "Tamoxifen is an estrogen binder that can be of value in short-term use to slow down breast cancer, but in long term use elevates the risk for heart attack, eye, and liver damage and increases the risk of endometrial cancer... Soy and ginseng are nature's "kinder, gentler" forms of Tamoxifen...."  

Another book worth having in your bc fighting library is The Anti-Estrogenic Diet by Ori Hofmekler.  While not specifically aimed at bc, it has some excellent information on natural estrogen inhibiting foods.     Deanna

Natkat

Been away a while.  Just to clarify ... doesn't matter if you've had surgery or whatever in past ... but this thread is about people using 100% NATURAL to address hormonal responsive cancers (ER+ / PR+) 

Great material on other threads, but much of it was mixed-up with general advice or many people posting on the natural threads that we should try the meds.  I ALREADY KNOW I am NOT going to try the meds, and so do many others.  This thread is to share our research in a targeted and direct way.

Good videos about Estrogen metabolism below.  Once you get past the wonky head gear she is very informative and scientific.  LOADS of good info in her videos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hw4inaJEISg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSOPTO6cwxg&feature=channel&list=UL

Also, the liver plays a key role in estrogen metabolism, so in a general way, maintaining healthy liver function is important to support any hormone programme.  I am currently drinking detox teas to support my liver function until I develop a specific protocol.  I use Yogi brand "detox" tea.  Tastes pleasant and gives you something to drink while researching

Thank you all for wonderful posts on this thread.

dlb823

Interesting about the liver function, NatKat.  My naturopathic doctor had me on a liver support product for 3 mos.  I now drink lemon juice in a glass of water first thing in the a.m., which I've read is beneficial for kick starting the liver.  Liver function really needs to be checked, especially if you've had chemo.    Deanna

[Deleted User]

 

"The researchers found that administering PEITC for 29 weeks was linked with a 56.3% reduction in mammary carcinoma lesions greater than 2mm."

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/248589.php

Popping my DIM for estrogen detox  

Note: 3/4 of a kilo of broccoli contains 10 to 30mg of Di-indolymethane (1 1/2 kg of broccoli contains the equivalent amount of one 100mg DIM capsule) 

whippetmom

I am so confused about the aspects of using ginseng.  I had been taking an Astralgus and Ginseng combo, prescribed by my naturopath, but stopped because of some studies which indicated it is both a phytoestrogen AND potentially a blocker of estrogenic action.  If it is both, does not one rule out or cancel out the other?  Or, does this mean that for some, ginseng acts as a "enabler/potentiator" and for others, as an "blocker/inhibitor"?

"The Linus Pauling Institute reports that the two primary components in American  ginseng are believed to have the same estrogen effect as soy phytoestrogens.  Cornell University notes that phytoestrogens act like naturally produced  estrogen, which may perform the same duties as natural estrogen or block the  effect of estrogen. Further research is needed to determine the true effects of  American ginseng on estrogen."

I apologize for regurgitating this question, if it has already been dissected previously here - I am new to all of this. 

Deborah

FlChie

Thank you very much for your posts, I am learning a lot. My oncologist has recomended arimidex but I have refused it. Have been takiing DIM, Breast defend and Pectasol C

Mini1

I'm confused about flaxseed. I've read to avoid it all together, to use only whole flax that you grind yourself, and that any kind is ok. The same thing about miso soup. Some say no, some say limit it, some say it's the best thing since white bread. Anyone care to weigh in on any or all?

graced

In the breast cancer book, Waking the Warrier Goddess, she devotes an entire chapter to the benefits of flaxseed for breast cancer prevention.  Dr. Keith Block of the Block Cancer Center also recommends flax for BC and I have seen it recommended elsewhere.  It is true that you have to grind it when you eat it and not buy the pre-ground stuff.  Our bodies can't digest the seeds whole and when ground, it can go rancid quickly. The lignans in the flaxseed hull are thought to have some anti-estrogen effect. In addition, the omega-3 fatty acids have immune-boosting, preventative effects. 2 tbs per day is the recommendation I have seen.  I add it into my morning smoothie and the vitamix grinds it all up so no need to pre-grind.

Mini1

Thanks Graced.

Linda-n3

I use ground flax seed, 2 tbsp. daily as several of you do.  My MO actually has recommended several dietary approaches, including flax oil (which I don't like, and have researched that flax seed is probably better overall anyway for both heart and anti-inflammatory).  I keep mine sealed in the refrigerator, which greatly prolongs the shelf life, and have not had problems with it going rancid.  I fix a big pot of steel cut oats with flax seed each week, and refrigerate so I have about 4-5 servings, to which I can then add cinnamon and fruit and an additional protein source.  If I don't cook oatmeal, I put the flax seed in yogurt or a smoothie.

On an aside note: you can use ground flax seed and water as an egg substitute in cooking!  I forget the proportions - will look them up.

There is some research at Vanderbilt University on soy and breast cancer, that basically says soy FOODS are not a problem, but the researchers did NOT suggest soy supplements.

http://www.mc.vanderbilt.edu/news/releases.php?release=2079

I am wondering (1) does the whole foods approach to hormonal therapy work, and (2) are there similar adverse effects of blocking estrogen receptors with the natural approaches (such as hot flashes), and if not, I wonder why not?

Mini1

Not to sound stupid, but... do you grind a tabl of seeds or is it a tbls after its been ground?

graced

I use the 2 tbs of seeds and then grind them.  I think you can't go wrong with consuming a little more but it's just easier to measure them from the bag that way.  Yes you do have to keep them in the fridge or the freezer.  There are golden ones and red ones - both good.  I use "Bob's Red Mill" organic.

Mini1

Thanks Graced. :-)

[Deleted User]

Whippetmon, I did take ginseng often on prior to dx but have shied away from it since.  I've read many studies the likes of this one:

"A ginsenoside-Rh1, a component of ginseng saponin, activates estrogen receptor in human breast carcinoma MCF-7 cells" 

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960076003000670 

I think I remember there being one exception and that's Canadian ginseng, maybe this is one of the reasons why:

"Canadian NAG and Asian ginseng differ in their chemical composition and each appears to have distinct biological effects. From a traditional Chinese medicine point of view, the Chinese perceive NAG to be more "yin" - meaning it is used to reduce "heat" in the body. Alternatively, Asian ginseng is thought to be more "yang" - meaning it is used to raise "heat" in the body" 

Linda: "are there similar adverse effects of blocking estrogen receptors with the natural approaches (such as hot flashes)"

I can testify to that. YES !  I'm getting the same flushes and even more pain and stiffness. Knees are terrible, can't get back up from squatting position  Took Tamox 18 months, started my DIM combo a few months before I discontinued Tamox and now only take DIM.  The cognitive dysfunction brought on by Tamox is slowly improving and I no longer have nightmares about endometrial and BC in other the breast which is a HUGE relief

ETA, forgot the fatigue...much worse on DIM. I believe it was Deanna who said she tried DIM but could not tolerate it and is now taking I3C, DIM's end product.  The formula I take contains both plus natural AIs; I take 4 caps daily, pretty strong stuff 

Natkat

WHhippetmon:
Vis a Vis Ginseng - ask your naturopath the principle s/he is using to prescribe this?  The 2 principles I have observed are

#1 minimizing estrogen
#2 maximizing estrogen METABOLISM

so perhaps the answer will depend on which principle your naturopath is using.  Please share the answer!  Curious to hear it.

Vis a Vis the flaxseeds:
Please keep posts on TOPIC - specific to treating the estrogen issue.  Flaxseeds are a general anti-cancer food.  Good for many people but not tolerated by others.  They are quite often rancid when you buy them due to shipping conditions from farm to store. 

Mini1

For those of you that are doing DIM, how much are you taking? Is it a one size fits all dosage as it is withTamox?

Binc

Actually, flaxseeds are on topic. Someone referenced the Waking the Warrior Goddess book earlier which details how flaxseed, although a phytoestrogen, acts similarly to tamoxifen in that it attaches to the estrogen receptor cells and blocks the body's natural estrogen from doing the same, thus preventing tumors from forming.

lisa_anne

Good question Mini1.  I am also very curious about DIM.  I hated Femara (6 months) and am hating Tamox (2 months now) The SE are horrible!!!  I want to try to prevent BC but am just starting to research a natural approach.

BTJ

I use Organic Golden Flax (ground). Never had a problem with it going rancid.  A typical breakfast for me is a slice of Dave's Killer Bread, organic almond butter spread on the toast, a light squeeze of local honey, 2 T golden flax..mix it around on the bread then slice half a banana on top.  Very filling and very good for you.

I am not sure why I had to have breast cancer before any of my doctors talked about the benefits of flax and green tea.

I have discontinued all anti-estrogen drugs because of side effects.  I appreciate the info you pass on but I am confused by the acronyms...what is DIM?

Scottiee1

Hope you don't mind me jumping in here. I am in Canada and I order concentrated Flax

Lignans from the States....all my research says it's the Lignans that are anti-cancer and

Since there seems to be some controversy over the whole flaxseed, this is my way of getting around it. Just wanted to share.

Natkat

Thank you for putting the flaxseeds on topic BINC!  Personally I can't tolerate them but you make good point they are working on the phyto-estrogen principle.

I too am curious about DIM.  Is it working on the principle of blocking estrogen or on increasing estrogen metabolism?  or?

[Deleted User]

Mini, because you are so tiny.... just joking.  The doctor whose formula I take recommends 6 to 8 tabs a day in case of BC.  I could not handle that.  You can try a lower dose and work it up, that's the beauty of natural products.  I had a hard time finding a formula without soy, go figure

Two caps contain:

CalciumD Glucarate = 150 mg so I take 300 mg a day

I3C = 150 mg 

Green tea extract  (90% standardized polyphenols) 30:1 from 3000 mg green tea = 100 mg

Turmeric (95% standardized curcumin) =  50 mg

DIM = 50 mg

Rosemary Leaf extract (6% carnosic acid) = 25 mg

Sulforaphane (from Broccophane, broccoli sprout extract) = 200 mcg

Tons and tons of research on each of these ingredients for BC 

[Deleted User]

Wow, while writing out my post, tons of sisters joined in, welcome !!!

DIM is the acronym for : 3,3'-Diindolylmethane, sorry can't pronounce it Lol

"It is a phytonutrient found in cruciferous vegetables. These include cabbage, broccoli, bok choy, Brussels sprouts, cauliflower, kale, kohlrabi, mustard, rutabaga, and turnip. 

It has anti-proliferative activity and the connection between DIM and hormones like estrogen has to do with similar characteristics between them at the molecular level. DIM is not an estrogen or a hormone, but like estrogen it shares the common characteristic of being poorly soluble in water.

Like estrogen, DIM can be metabolized only by a special class of cytochrome enzymes that reside in cell membranes in the non-water part of cells. It turns out that DIM, when consumed in food or in absorbable formulations, encourages its own metabolism. This special metabolic pathway for DIM, and the enzymes involved, precisely overlap with the pathway needed for healthy estrogen metabolism.

Supplementing our diets with DIM can shift the production of estrogen metabolites away from dangerous 16-hydroxy in favor of beneficial 2-hydroxy metabolites.  DIM supports estrogen balance by increasing beneficial 2-hydroxy estrogens and reducing the unwanted 16-hydroxy variety. This improves estrogen metabolism and helps resolve all three forms of estrogen dominance. 

Stated simply, supplementing the diet with DIM specifically promotes beneficial estrogen metabolism and helps restore a healthy hormonal balance

Cruciferous vegetables are protective for hormone-sensitive cancers. However, direct measurements of upward, beneficial shifts in estrogen metabolism indicate you would have to eat at least two pounds per day of raw or lightly cooked cruciferous vegetables to derive the same benefit as two capsules of specially formulated DIM."

 

Mini1

Ruby - I'm not small I'm travel size! That's why I was wondering about dosage. With Tamox I could be 3 times my size, drink a pint of vodka a day, eat all my meals at McDonald's, smoke a pack a day and never lift a finger and I would get the same dosage as they want to give me now when none of those things apply to me

Maybe that's why so many people have side effects on these BC meds. We're being over-medicated. I can't do the AI's because of my osteoporosis and the SE's of Tamox scare me. I don't want cancer to return or spread, but I don't want to put something in my body that the ACS has on their list (multiple times) as a known carcenigen. Call me crazy but I don't think increasing my risk of other cancers, blood clots, etc. is a better than at least trying supplements and diet first.

[Deleted User]

Travel size, cute ! Not crazy Mini, just a cut above the norm smart 

I would not be taking the natural meds instead of the conventional ones if the science was not behind them, but since it is, I would be really stupid not to

Soyaandpepper

Binc-Any studies about the flaxseed you could share? I'm really confused about that since I heard both sides, that flaxseed is anticancer and then its also not good for ER+ breast cancer ladies!

Beequeen12

Oh my goodness!! The timing of me finding this is fab!! I will meet my oncologist next week for the first time... "so that he can tell you what kind of drug he wants you to take". Well, I don't want to take anymore drugs... I already take seven prescriptions... I had a total hysterectomy in 2010...

Hearing that I may have an option is HUGE to me!!!

Natkat

Thank you for all the wonderful posts.  I made a summary document so the info is organized.  Please feel free to cut & paste into your own notes for easy reference.  This post is LONG.  read it all to get the full info.

Thank you to Ruby, my sister Mare (who isn't on this forum), and everyone else who posted useful info which is included in the below document:

Foods generally beneficial for curing ER+/PR+ cancers:

#1 choice:  foods of the Brassica family including cruciferous veggies: broccoli, cauliflower, brussel sprouts, cabbage, kale, and mustard seed.  **see below chart**

Avocado (mehtionine for estrogen metabolism)
Berries (especially blue berries)
Broccoli, kale, cabbage, radishes, cauliflower, watercress, etc.
Buckwheat
Fresh Fruits (beneficial for flavenoids although not indicated on the chart)
**Flax Seeds (contra-indicated for some people)
Grapes (especially purple grapes and eat the seeds if you can, also red wine in LIMITED dose)
Melons
Millet
Onion & Garlic
Pineapples
White rice, tapioca

Natural Aromatase Inhibitors:

Nature has provided an abundance of aromatase inhibitors.  You don't have to take drugs to inhibit aromatase. Nature has provided plants that will get the job done without harmful side effects. Research showed that chrysin worked as well to inhibit the aromatase enzyme as a drug designed for that purpose. Chrysin is normally taken as a supplement along with piperine which greatly enhances its bioavailability.

Beneficial compounds gotten from food have the added benefits of the perfect synergy found in a whole food as well as the other nutrients and compounds it contains.

Quercetin, naringenin, resveratrol, apigenin, genistein, and oleuropein are all powerful flavonoids from whole foods that inhibit aromatase and offer other health benefits as well.  Organically grown foods contain the highest levels of these flavonoids.

Quercetin is the main reason an apple a day keeps the doctor away. It is a major antioxidant with important anti-aging benefits. It fights inflammation and reduces the cellular damage inflammation causes. By fighting inflammation, it also helps decrease swelling and pain, and keeps the circulatory system healthy. Quercetin helps prevent fatigue by helping to decrease damage from heavy exercise, and increase endurance. It is an anti-viral, and an immune system supporter and liver protector. Research has suggested that quercetin has other anti-cancer benefits aside from inhibiting aromatase in breasts and prostates. Cabbage, onions and garlic are other good sources of this powerful flavonoid.

Apigenin is a non-mutigenic flavonoid that has significant chemoprotective action against UV radiation. Research has shown apigenin reduces oxidative damage of DNA, inhibits the growth and induces differentiation in human leukemia cells, inhibits cancer cell transduction, and induces appropriate cell death. Like quercetin, apigenin acts as an anti-inflammatory and as an antispasmodic. Apigenin is found in good supply in celery, parsley, artichokes, basil, and chamomile.

Naringenin, is an antioxidant, free radical scavenger, anti-inflammatory, and immune system modulator. It has been shown to promote proper metabolism of carbohydrates. It was shown to reduce hepatitis C virus production by infected liver cells in cell culture and to inhibit the secretion of very low density lipoprotein by cells. As a cancer fighter, it reduces oxidative damage to DNA. Naringenin is found in all citrus and may be the reason that diets high in citrus are negatively correlated with heart disease. However, naringenin should not be obtained from grapefruit or grapefruit juice, which has an inhibitory effect on the human cytochrome P450 isofrom, another enzyme in the same complex as the aromatase enzyme. This enzyme is involved in breaking down and metabolizing sex hormones and preventing their excess accumulation in the body, so inhibiting it is not a good idea.

Resveratrol is a flavonoid gaining wide respect for its multitude of health benefits. Several recent research studies have revealed that resveratrol is highly effective against breast cancer by inhibiting ER positive and negative cell proliferation, cell cycle progression, and primary breast tumor growth. Resveratrol is protective of the liver even against alcohol. It also keeps the central nervous system strong by protecting neurons from oxidative stress. Resveratrol is found to some degree in the skin and seeds of red grapes. Muscadine grapes have the largest content and are often used to make red wine. Although supplements of resveratrol are popular and widely available, getting resveratrol from red wine allows you to get the entire grape polyphenol group of nutrients, a group that has been shown to work much better synergistically. Breast tumor growth and metastasis to bone and liver were shown to be better inhibited by the complete grape polyphenol complex.

Oleuropein gives olive oil its distinctive flavor and is found in abundance in the leaves of the olive tree. It is one of the reasons olive leaf is such a powerful tool for wellness. Oleuropein helps the body fight off viruses, bacteria, and fungi. It is contained in every part of the olive tree and is the basis of its defense from insects. Oleuropein has been shown to boost the immune defense of people too, as well as fostering a healthy balance between friendly bacteria in the intestinal tract. In animal research, oleuropein was shown to enhance nitric oxide production. It is also a potent antioxidant and anti-inflammatory.

Packaged Preparations (not endorsing - just listing for convenience)

http://www.activamune.com/
http://www.swansonvitamins.com/NFC111/ItemDetail

Suplements & Herbs most of us agreed on:
DIM (bio available)
Sulforaphane
Turmeric

Supplements specific to Estrogen Metabolism
(not estrogen blockers - estrogen metabolizers working on Methylation pathway)

L-Methionine (amino acid) estrogen conversion
Methylcobalamin B12 (vitamin)  estrogen conversion
MSM - estrogen conversion
Calcium D-Gluconate (assists removal of estrogen via bowels)

General Principle:
Estrogen is metabolized by the liver and eliminated through the bowels.  Strengthen liver function.  Detoxify both liver and bowels.  Over-the-counter products I recommend:
Yogi Tea "Detox" and Michael Tierra Tri-Cleanse. 
These are not medicinal but can be used by anyone - no professional guidance necessary.

If you are working with a Naturopath, TCM, or Ayurvedic practioner, they will likely have medicinal liver-strengthening or detoxifying protocols included in your treatment.

D-glucarate is found in apples, oranges, broccoli, spinach, and Brussels sprouts. To metabolize estrogens, your liver joins them to glucoronic acid so they can be eliminated through the bowel.  In some cases, a gut bacteria called beta-glucuronidase breaks this bond and allows the estrogen to be re-circulated in the body. D-glucarate inhibits an enzyme produced by the beta-glucuronidase so improves your chances to eliminate estrogens through the bowel successfully.

Juice Suggestion:
Juice greens and herbs known to contain the phytochemical indole-3-carbinol to improve detox of environmental estrogen.  Especially watercress  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20546646

Iodine Protocols may be beneficial for estrogen related cancers  http://www.breastcancerchoices.org/iodine.html

• Lugols' solution & DMSO topically
• Iodoral protocol: Iodoral 12.5 - 50 mg, vitamin C (Ascorbyl palmitate, ascorbic acid, ascorbate) 3000 mg, magnesium (citrate or oxide) 300-600 mg, Selenium or L-selenomethionine 200 mg, B3 Niacin (inositol hexanicotinate) 500mg, B2 Riboflavin 100mg
  

Possible - Worth researching:
melatonin
chia seeds
PEITC
Ginseng (American vs. Asian)

Green tea extract / EGCG - general, still researching role in estrogen related cancers
ID3 - similar to DIM but contra-indicated in some cases?

CoQ10 - general, still researching role in estrogen related cancers
Omega 3 & fish oil fatty acids - general, still researching role in estrogen related cancers

Mini1

Natkat - That is awesome. Thank you so much for sharing!