Treating estrogen responsive cancer naturally
Comments
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MadBB - You are correct. I've also heard it referred to as evil forebodings. I know that some wise advice I was given when making the tough decision to quit my job. A job that was a good one in a state w/o many good ones available. Also my being a middle-aged (if I live to 112 lol) and having no college degree. I was told I would know when I made the the right decision when I found peace. Well I was anything but peaceful about it. Then I took it a step further and paid attention to the moments of peace I did feel at times and the moments of distress I felt more often than not. When I thought about quitting I felt peaceful. When I thought about the loss of income, the possibility of not being able to find another job, etc. I felt stressful. So I went with quitting. I still do not have a job yet, but I have only cancer stress, and I do not miss my job at all. Not a bit. And I worked it 12 years. We are not wealthy people. I don't have an unlimited rainy day fund, but I know I made the right decision
I think this is the same situation. I feel peace when I think about not taking the meds. It's when I listen to all the naysaying that I feel unrest. Granted we are comparing possible poverty to my life, but I think the same principles apply. Ultimately, we have to do what we believe is right for us.
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Curveball: I wish that it could be determined how much estrogen we actually need, on a case by case basis, to stay healthy and still avoid breast cancer.
But that hasn't been figured out yet, so we all get the same strength AI.
Not a good idea!!
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Mini - I understand completely. For me I always knew it would be alternatives / traditional for me, but I did not know what, or thought I knew but found out I had to learn more and dig much deeper to know what to do when dealing with cancer. This caused a great deal of stress and gnashing of the teeth for me bcz a few times there I thought it had to be NOW or I was going to die. Truth for me, it had to be soon and good and continuous, but NOW was not an immediate factor. And no, I was not going to die from cancer being in my body, it is in all bodies. I was going to die from cancer left unchecked as my body was doing for whatever reason ---- and a great part of that reason we go off balance, I believe is the hormone issues faced with DHEA and thyroid, then also with menopause (it is again individual causation). Deep peace to you Minni, listen to that song sometime again, it is beautifu. Think I will again today, right on my computer.
In an overall sweep, we know that hormones are involved in stress, how we feel it and how we handle it and what stress does to us and our immune system. The less stress, the more peace, the better. And the full circle.... the better our hormones are leveled for us individually and supported, the better the stress issues are dealt with by us and the better off our immune system to work for us, the better the cancer listens to our immune system as everything comes back to balance. And I am not talking about eating right. It is HUGE! to make this transition.
I have re-read the thread and think I can only respond this way, being to you personally, Curveball, in that you are talking about walking in a different minefield. I would rather walk in the natural / bioidentical hormone therapy. Therefore the information provided by the study you brought forward is the other mine field, the one of synthetics. Also the study link you provided was from 1995, the research and studies and the women who developed cancer from synthetic HRT was profoundly apparent in 2000 though not told until 2002 and then represented incorrectly, causing women throughout to go off BOTH synthetic HRT and natural bioidentical HRT. It is just now in 2005 to 2012, omg, really, why why why does it take so long and so many die not knowing????? that women are getting the truth. All that time without their natural protection.
The one point I do agree with you on - that estrogen must not be dominant. We need the DHEA, the progesterone, all three of the estrogens and for our thyroid to be given the support it needs to function properly for us, each individually, or that estrogen dominance can wreak havoc. When I say estrogen I do not only mean our hormone estrogen, but also xenoestrogens from our environment. And yes, the estrogen pos receptors of cancer cells is alarming. That is why I finally learned and chose to use the bioidentical progesterone cream again and RAN not walked to the best natural-minded endocrinologist I could find who is very far away. That was after I had been told by three # MDs to not use the bioidentical progesterone anymore. NOW I feel my life depends on this and I am upset that I lost so much time when I could have been safer from this cancer. Thank Mother Nature and the good earth for the alternative tx I have been able to use in meantime, maybe saved me. IMHO.
I am long-winded... a writer through and through. Have to get to work now... writing. Thank you all for the comments to consider and thought-provoking discussion (Curveball
that does indeed save lives in the end. It takes just a little to make a lot of difference, one person at a time, and by participating, questioning, provoking, supporting, and befriending, we will get there, all of us, both the conventional and the traditional/alternative still in the same big old BC boat.LOVEEssa
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RE: SUPPLEMENTS
Many of you know the challenges I have had with choosing supplements due to a host of other med. issues that have caught me in the infamous catch 22 of tx.
I went to an integrative DR yesterday who could have listed 40 supplements for me, but he really listened ( for over an hr) and took all of my other health issues into account.
This was his formula for me;
CurcuminPro 3000 mgMushrooms 2 capsules a day
Melatonin 3-30 mg
Fish oil to obtain 3000-5000 mg omega 3
2000 VIT D.
UNfortunately, he also listed GSE which *was* my top choice, but he did not realize this lowers BP. ( Mine is ALREADY too low of course...anoither catch 22)
So, after all this, I still do not feel I am addressing the hormone receptor. DIM is not good for me- cruciferous veggies are goiterpus and I have a goiter. another catch 22.*Soooo, here are my questions for thoise of you who have explored supplements :
There seems to me I had a reason for 'being careful' about these omega 3's or am I getting mixed up with omega 6 ? Comments ?any other info or advice anyone ??
Many thanks and best wishes to all~!0 -
Purple32
thanks for sharing- I am not an expert so I hope others will reply! It looks sound....
Chocolate
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I can't address all issues you mention, but I do know that we get way too much omega 6 and not enough 3 and 9. Packaged food especially is full of omega 6's. It's the balance of the tree that is necessary; also the quality of the supplement.
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Hi to all ---
Again rushing through and do not have the time I want to give to the endocrinologist report am going to try hard though....
For Purple --- FISH OIL --- My natural minded endo yesterday told me he wants me to be on 2000 - 4000 mg of non-mercury fish oil a day for inflammation (which holds estrogens and fat cells hold inflammation and I definitely have fat cells) and it is good for heart and such I know. He knows I am dealing w ER+ PR+. He told me the Dr. Sears . com site has fish oil good for you and you can take by spoonful. Ummmm, yuck, but I will.
Flaxseed oil is a phytoestrogen I also take but most often use it in the Budwig protocol with yogurt I make from raw milk.
I also asked him about phytoestrogens, because I am using the flaxseed oil, the vegetables in diet, the raw milk, the borage blend (careful Purple, this lowers bp, see borage info at natural breast enhancement...... http://www.breastnexus.com/archive/index.php/thread-5274.html and interesting to note the UK uses the borage flower as their breast cancer symbol. anyway I am on these and more.....
But on phytoestrogens, again, when asked, he said these are good because the plant estrogens will block the cell receptor sites so the body estrogens cannot fill them and fuel the cancer cells.
A quick run down from tests proved my estrogen levels are WAY low, and I am a fat woman who is 'supposed' to be holding onto estrogens in the fat cells and most likely of reoccurence than a thin woman - see LEF Life Extension this month on the new study of why to lose weight.
So my estrogens, estradiol and estrone were way down, he is not touching them, keep doing what I am, he said. Refer to former posts on what I am doing to lower estrogens w chastetree berry, the essential oil of helicrysin, tumeric extract, use of phytoestrogens, black beans in diet (I go in spurts with these) and others stuff I am using, incl borage blend.
My progesterone was extremely low and he has a compounded Rx coming to me from NY Hormone Labs, bioidentical. This will fill the PR+ receptor sites and down regulate the estrogens Bcl2. A good thing too.
My DHEA was really low and he is leaving that alone, to supplement that would increase estrogen production.
Thyroid, though the standard l-tyrosine, T3 and T4 and TSH test showed my thyroid to be well regulated and in norms, the other tests for thyroid was most revealing - the Anti TG Ab was 155 and norm is 0 - 40. The Anti TPO Ab was 39, high norm is 35. The Thyroglobulin was .6 and norms are 0 - 55.
For thyroid he is taking me off Synthroid / Levothyroxine and onto a compounded T3 T4 to go with my iodine and l-tyrosine.
My D levels were too low at 55, switching me to a micronized capsule for better absorption with goal of 200 since, as he said, breast cancer and D3 are very connected.
Have to work out details of liver detox, taking in a few minutes the last paart w epsom salts na grapefruit juice, gug, will be a long night but Hubby is working midnights and I have all you guys to talk to. Later, between serious toilet breaks.
LOVEEssa
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http://www.healingcancernaturally.com/lothar-hirneise-johanna-budwig.html
For a real rundown on fatty acids and the electrical charge we need from them, here is a link I like. I have five of Budwig's books, a medical genius who belongs, as said, in the cancer hall of fame, if only we had one.
You will find out the good oils and how to use them. I use the flaxseed oil with my raw milk yogurt everyday. Had the fears of phytoestrogens and now with the tests, I am not afraid of it, and after talking to my doctor, I understand why and how it helps me. That is me, you have to decide for yourself.
LOVEEssa
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I saw Dr. Oz speak a while ago and he talked about the supplements that he takes daily. When he talked about the Omega, he said he uses an algae source, not a fish source because of the threat of mercury, and other types of contamination with fish sources. Plus the only reason the fish have it is from eating the algae. I use Ovega which is an algae source. Just another alternative if anyone is interested. The dose does not come as high as some of the fish sourced ones.
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I think this thread is filling a need in the gap between traditional medicine and alternative methods. Both can be helpful.
Natkat,I second the motion that if you have problems with the flaxseed,the chia seed is a hardier one with similar benefits and lessl likely to go rancid and doesnt have to be ground. I sprinkle some on my oatmeal when I choose to have oatmeal.
Also,second the research with the grapeseed extract which I also take. Had 3 aunts pass from bc and was lucky enough to live near state of art facility where they found my bc before it was big enough to be seen on a mammagram by doing the ultrasound and MRI and it was very small and had not gone to the nodes so by taking the bmx was able to avoid chemo and rads.
dlb823,I am sure the drs threw a fit if you refused chemo. I had LCIS in 2002 and refused any treatment and the surg who has since left the state,told me I must have a mx of that side or pass in a horrid way. Yep,not a nice dr. I told them unless I actually had cancer I was refusing any cancer treatment so when 2012 Dec I did get IDC,I think my protocol kept it from getting larger with prayer and faith. Hope to live to ripe old age like my one aunt who got treated back in the day with the Halsted radical mastectomy while she lived in Germany. It came back in her other side and she went thru it again so I told myself,no just go with the bmx and get the gel implants. To avoid recurrence,do you ladies think we need to change our diet and lifestyle at least from ways it may have contributed to any encouragement whatsoever of the growth of our cancer? I wanna change buts its so hard. I need to give up fried chicken and wine.
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A little wine is good for the hear, but try to give up the fried chicken---
I have been a vegan for about 8 months and feel so much better--
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THX for all the replies! I do appreciate it.
As fore the fish oil, He suggested Vital Nutrients or Nordic Naturals. I still need to look into the balance of the 3s and 6s etc etc ..
RE: tumeric extract.May I ask how much ppl take etc ...any SEs ?
This DR said CURCUMIN Pro( New Chapter) 3 per day OR 3000 mg day curcumin and finally,Am I crazy to be upset that the mushroom capsules he sold me ( which I now fine lower BP and I cannot use) for FORTY dollars are at amazon for half that price ?
This is an MD who is fully paid through my health ins.Thx for any add'l comments.
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Tumeric - I take an extract, really strong so only 1 - 2 droppers but I don't know how much it is. Sorry, I do need to know, they just don't have info on bottle, it was online and on a sheet, but forget.
I know what you mean about the cost of the supplements and such, I most often walk away and find a source I can afford. But the fact those caps lower your bp and your doc needed to pay attention to that huge detail - he should refund you and eat the loss. One of my docs missed that I should not take iodine and have UVB IV - needed to stop iodine for a few days and a day after IV, I got a sun welty rash and things like this irk me, they need to take time to think.
The wine is good and you don't really have to give up the fried chicken, just almost never eat it, and even find better ways to prepare it. Consider pecan oil and celtic sea salt, and tapioca flour with some millet flour for breading, maybe some garlic powder, some spices you really like. Or a coconut oil to fry that has NO coconut flavor, shop hard, it is out there.
Layla - I agree, we have to make the changes no matter what tx we choose, the coming to balance is all the same in the end, imo.
Chia sseeds, good made into crackers. Just use a little seed, mayne 1/4 c and a little water, let soak up, season and fry or bake. First time I made it was not thinking, used about 2 c of seeds and did I have a lot of batter! Made all kinds of seasonings with those. Dog likes them still.
Oh and thanks for the tip on the algea omegas, will check into that. My endo just told me 2000 - 4000 a day, he recommended the dr sears site for fish oil that is not in capsules, but the algea source more appeals to me.
LOVEEssa
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The turmeric I take is from Organic India and each capsule is 370 mg and I take 2 a day - 1 in the morning and 1 in the evening. I have not had any side effects. In "Waking the Warrior Goddess", she says that two 500mg capsules are the recommended daily dose so I am pretty close to that. I guess you can try working up to the 3000 gradually to see if you have any side effects.
On another note, in one of the other forums, sweetbean had recommended Dr. Wong, a Harvard-graduate MD who also practices traditional chinese medicine and happens to specialize in BC. He's based out of NYC so I am going to make an appt to see him soon. In the meantime, I saw on his website where he's been doing research on using wolfberry (lycium barbarum) instead of tamoxifen. Sounds interesting. Lycium Barbarum is the main component of the Ninxia Red drink from Young Living but I am sure there are other sources out there for it too. Haven't started looking yet. When I do get around to meeting with him, I will definitely share with you anything I learn. Here's the link to the study.
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Wine is tricky. Too much can increase your risks, a small amount is ok. The trouble is most people drink to much. It is only four oz I believe, three times a week. A full wine glass is much more than that.
Anybody know where I can find info on what progesterone levels should be. I'm kind of floudering on my own out here trying to find out what I need. I did find a natuopath oncologist about an hour away, but it's not covered by insurance. Right now I've been off work for 6 months and with that and the medical bills, I will have to wait to save the bucks to pay him. That will likely be awhile.
I think changing diets is the most important things you can do. Read or watch Forks Over Knives and Food Matters. There are other good books out there as well. I haven't become a vegan. With my other dietary restrictions, it would be very difficult for me to sustain a healthy strictly vegan diet, but I have adopted many of the receipes and changed the way I do things greatly. I actually began doing this before BC when I had pancreatic issues. It was a little difficult at first, but now I fell 100% better and I actually like my food and dislike much of what I used to eat. I won't lie and say I would kill for a Krispy Creme donut once in awhile, but if I could go back in the way back machine (ooh that dates me, eh?) I would have started eating this way in my teens. My skin is better, my body feels better, my energy level is up. It's one of those thingss you don't realize how bad it was until it's better and you're looking back at it. I encourage everyone to try it. It's worth it.
Ok, sorry to rant so long. HAPPY FRIDAY!
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Anybody stage 4 doing alternative treatments?
I saw this results, www.cancerclinic.me (scroll down, press results). Anybody having experienced these types of therapy?
Thanks,
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I think changing diet is very important to prevent reoccurance, I'm not treating my ER+ naturally so I hope its OK that I post here with you ladies who do. I'm taking tamoxifen and I've changed my diet 180 degree after my cancer. I'm juicing twice a day, eating organic and cut down my meat to 90%, its really hard since I weight train pre cancer and was following a diet with large quantities of meat intake for protein. Now I've gone 90% vegan, its still hard to get the same amount of protein with just veg alone. I'm also trying to eat alkaline to keep my body PH balance. I'm not taking any supplements but I'm cooking with turmeric 90% of the time adding it to my veg dishes, what is the omega supplement you ladies talking about not from fish? Want to know if that's the only way to get more omega 3.
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soyandpeppa, good for you for making all those great changes to your diet! Brendan Brazier is a triathelete and a vegan and he has some books about high performance and veganism. Also Rich Roll is an ultra athlete and a vegan with a book about it. I haven't read his book yet but I am in the middle of Brendan's. The vegan omega supplement is called Ovega and you can see what the packaging looks like at www.ovega.com. I buy it online b/c it's half the price of what whole foods sells it for.
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Not sure if anyone has shared this link yet but it is a great overview about nutrition and breast cancer. If you are a researcher (either by profession or necessity--in my case both) it is well cited with peer-reviewed studies.
http://cancer.ucsf.edu/_docs/crc/nutrition_breast.pdf
I believe after doing A LOT of research on this that we need to focus less on supplementing our diets and worrying about what we shouldn't be eating and more on eating high nutrient dense foods (e.g. greens--kale, spinach, fruits, etc.) everyday. If you are full from eating high nutrient foods, then you won't have much room for all the bad stuff
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Graced:
"I guess you can try working up to the 3000 gradually to see if you have any side effects. "
Wow! I wouldnt dream of it after reading your post, graced! Thanks for the heads up on your dosage. I like to take the most conservative amt of anything- at least to start!0 -
I just read that cancer patients shouldn't take any supplement that has more than 100% of the daily requirements. Preliminary studies have shown that too much of many vitamins can stimulate CA cells. More is not always better.
Thanks for the book recommendations above. I'm always trying to learn. :-)
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Thanks, Mini ..that will make a lot of ppl here question what they are doing I am sure.
I honestly think the very best way is " clean eating' and lots of exercise. I was doing good for several mos., went on a vaca and am back to my old ways.Not good.
I also have a problem knee at the moment and can't exercise at all, not that I can normally do much with thEse lungs ...
it can be discouraging at times. It would truly be so much easier just to pop a pill. I wish I had nice healthy bones.
I would exercise, take my Ca aND DOUBLE d AND arimidex! bUT HELL, IF i AM GOIMNG TO WISH , i GUESS i SHOULD WISH AWAY THE LUNG DISEASE AND THE CANCER TOO, HUH ?
mIGHT AS WELL GO FO THE GOLD!oops sorry caps
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Purple -There are several video's out there that all the exercise are done sitting down with light weights. You may want to try that.
I also think you should get as much of your vitamins from food, but that's not always possible. Especialy crucerficious (sp?) veggies. I only take calcium on the days that I don't enough form my diet. It's hard to keep track of all the vitamins you're getting from food. I wish there was a more simple way to keeps track of things.
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graced-Thanks for the tip about Brendan Brazier! I just ordered his books and can't wait to get and read them. I hope that I would get some great tips from him.
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I just read that cancer patients shouldn't take any supplement that has more than 100% of the daily requirements. Preliminary studies have shown that too much of many vitamins can stimulate CA cells.
Mini, I'm curious where you read that. Deanna
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capburke-I agree on concentrating on eating more nutrient dense food, I juice with kale,spinach, romaine lettuce ,carrots, apples, cumumbers and beets. Also I eat quinoa which is super easy to add into any dish I make, I also eat cauliflower, lentil, chick peas, sweet potato and kidney beans.
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Oh mini, trust me...I dont get enough vitamins from my food! Just saying it would be ideal. Right now, I'm a little bummed out.
I feel like I've been searching' forever" ( 4 1/2 mos in reality) for the right thing to do for this cancer in light of all my other health issues.
I was doing well in terms of eating until a vaca where I just ate whatever I wanted. Returning home, I think I kind of felt like
" whats the use ?" and continued to eat whatever I wanted. I cant exercise much to begin with and currently, I have a minor injury - just enough to put a stop to all of .
I had my highest hopes set on this integrative doc, but some of the things he suggested are not going to work with my hypotension.
Now, there are reports of not taking more than 100% of anything ?
Sometimes, I feel like I may as well be living in 1920 since I am essentially not treating this ( but for the LX)
I dunno'.........
Whatever.0 -
graced
I visited the " Dr Wong link" but right off the bat, one of his first comments concerned me :
"Selective estrogen receptor modulators Tamoxifen (TAM) and
Raloxifene (RAL) represent conventional strategies for treatment
of endocrine therapy responsive estrogen receptor positive (ER
+)
clinical breast cancer (1, 2)."
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Raloxifene is NOT used for TX of BC. In fact, I specifically asked my " Harvard docs' in Boston, thinking it might be ok for me and they ( 3 of them) said NEVER. It is only used strictly for prevention and never for tx.0 -
capburke, would you post again, because I can't getvtheblink to work.
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Purple, I only take calcium with D and vitamin B12; nothing else. My cardio NP says supplements are not necessary if you eat a healthy, balanced diet. I eat fruit, veggies, beans, rice, cereal, bread and have added fish (even though I'm "mostly" vegan) I really crave fish for some reason.
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