Treating estrogen responsive cancer naturally

divinemrsm

For anyone who's interested, there is a thread on the subject of recurrence after double mastectomy here:

Breast Cancer Topic: Recurrence after bilat mastectomy?

Altho the thread was started in 2009, it is still active, with 26 pages of posts, the most recent was just a few days ago.

Momine

Ladybird, BMX is not a guarantee. There is usually some breast tissue cells left and the cancer can recur there.

Ladybird-dancer

There is no guarantee with any of this. We know that. I think you misunderstood the root of my question. No matter.

juneping

klanders - i am so sorry (((hugs)))....how are you doing?

klanders

Thanks for your support! I hate cancer almost as much as I hate the cancer meds! I'm doing okay so far - but I'm still in the dark about what's going on in my body. Brain MRI came back clear. Yay! Now I'm waiting for the results of my bone scans and CT scans of pelvis, abdomen, and chest. I probably won't hear anything until Monday. Once we find out if the cancer has spread I'll be given a plan of attack. (I'm thinking lumpectomy and radiation.) When I had my BMX (cancer in both breasts) I had to go back in the next week for an additional surgery because I was told that my margins in my left breast weren't clean. These two new lumps are pretty close to that incision and the original lump. I knew that there is always a little bit left behind, but just never dreamed the cancer would come back. It is exactly like the first cancer - ER+, PR+, HER2-. I also kept my nipples so I know there is some extra skin cells there that wouldn't have been had they removed them.

I'm still taking all my supplements. They can only help, I think. But there was about a two month period this summer; when I had to go take care of my dad when my mom died, when I was not as good with taking my supplements. But I've also read of ladies who were on tamoxifen and still had their cancer come back. I hated the tamoxifen SE's and with the support of this forum I chose to go alternative. Next time, though, I'm going to try to suffer through the tamoxifen. My track record isn't so good. Weird thing - tested negative for BRCA gene and when I got the cancer the first time I didn't have any of the risk factors - other than my favorite food consisting of sugar. (I was a very thin sugaraholic.) I try to avoid sugar now.

I'm trusting God for my future and I'm surrounded by a wonderful group of family and friends. I am truly blessed, all things considered. Thanks for the thread link. I'll look at that next.

Kristin

Momine

Klanders, yay on the brain scan. Keeping fingers crossed that the rest are clear as well. By the way, I am angry on your behalf that you have to wait so long for scan results. At my hospital they are usually very sweet. Once they see my DX, they either have me wait for the results after the test or else they have them the next morning. They know that waiting is not fun in cancerland.

Ladybird-dancer

Very best wishes for a good outcome.

Cee67

Kristin (Klanders),

You have so much guilt. Ask anyone here (and I'm new but I see this from long-standing members), and anyone will tell you that no one knows why some get cancer and some don't; why some have recurrence and some don't; why tx work differently on everyone.

You didn't do anything wrong. Cancer just happened to you and there's no answer why. Forgive yourself. I'm working on forgiving myself for some things too, so I understand how and why you feel the way you do.

We're here for you and we support you xx

klanders

Thanks for all the support. I don't want to hijack this forum from the original intent so just a quick update. It appears that I don't have mets (yay!) and only the local recurrence. MRI showed the two lumps under the skin but not attached. I met with a surgeon today and might be having a lumpectomy in a week and then radiation and then, sigh..., hormonal therapy. I'm continuing all the supplements at the moment still - my CDG Estro Dim, biocurcumin, molybdenum and a bunch of others. But when they ask me to take Tamoxifen again I'm going to give it a longer try and see how it goes. Maybe this next time I'll tolerate the side effects better. Time will tell.

Ladybird-dancer

So pleased to hear this Klanders. Well done!

From personal experience I can only say that I got a lot less conscious side effects from Tamoxifen than I did from the AIs. The Tamoxifen gave me hot flushes - that's all I noticed - but with the AIs I was in a lot of pain and they did real damage to my bone density.

They are all evil these drugs, but sometimes they do help. The Tamoxifen reduced my tumour by 25% so it can do some things and at least it allows your body to produce Oestrogen, it just blocks it from the tumour, unlike the AIs which stop all production of Oestrogen and this surely can't be right for a woman?

Very best of luck, yes, you deserve a break. You really do.

Best wishes,

Cee67

Klanders, I second and third what everyone else said: so happy it is just a local recurrence! You must be relieved. All the best on your upcoming surgery and future tx!

wantshealthback

I agree with Ruby with the quercetin. I found the book, "Beating Cancer with Nutrition," I know kind of a weird title. But it talks about Quercetin's benefits, and also Tumeric (aka curcumin). More info: http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/turmeric-extract-strikes-root-cause-cancer-malignancy Both quercetin and turmeric have research that shows some positivity.

I have been buying eggs that are soy-free, meaning that chickens are not fed soy or GMO soy, and that makes me feel I am working to keep the estrogen overload more at bay. I have been selecting cosmetics and deodorants without paraben.

Any recent news about MACA POWDER? I have just started it for my fatigue. Any counter indicators for breast cancer? Looking forward to looking at posts re: watching estrogen overload. I used to be Tomatoman so I am trying to find out what happened to that user name!

melissadallas

When I search Tomatoman in user name search the posts come rigt up.

yoga_girl

*Anxiety and Insomnia*

http://thiaminedeficiency.org/  - to read the entire article below

http://umm.edu/health/medical/altmed/supplement/vitamin-b1-thiamine  - additional research - University of Maryland Medical Center

Cancer patients treating with DCA (to shrink tumors and/or prevent cancer recurring) require additional supplementation of  Thiamine/Vitamin B1.  This is because the DCA utilizes thiamine stores in your body to shrink and expel the tumor cells – this increased utilization of thiamine can trigger thiamine deficiency without adequate supplementation.  This Thiamine Deficiency has symptoms of the Nervous system disorder, known as “Dry BeriBeri  (see below). To learn more about DCA visit pureDCA.com

Vitamin B1 is an essential vitamin known as aneurin, thiamin, and thiamine deficiency in this vitamin can be serious. Vitamin B1 is water soluble and must be taken daily to replenish our stores and prevent thiamine deficiency. Thiamin helps maintain a normal metabolism; process carbohydrates, fats, and proteins; burn carbohydrates for energy; and, aid in metabolism of amino acids. Every cell requires Vitamin B1 to fuel our body. Nerve cells require Vitamin B1/thiamine powder in order to function normally.  Thiamine Deficiency has serious repurcussions to your health. 

Thiamine Deficiency is reversible with supplementation.

Dichloroacetate has been used in recent human trials. These trials were done by a university and their results have been published for anyone to read about the dichloroacetate cancer connection.

Pure DCA Information
The main facts about sodium dichloroacetate, pure DCA.

Scientific Research Papers and Studies Done With Dicholoracetate
Various papers in the peer-reviewed scientific literature, for educational purposes only.

http://www.cancer.gov/

Mspanos

---

I am taking

PectoSol-C

10 mushroom supplements

Breast Defend supplements

Juice Plus, 3x normal amount

Traditional Chinese Medicines

A Cellwise from Melaleuca

Wheat Grass shots

I drink lots of matcha tea

Distilled or spring water

No plastics for storage or eating/drinking

Also eating 80% raw

Only grass fed beef, very little and fresh caught salmon

No sugar, grains, dairy, soy

It's been a challenge to say no meat just in terms of filling me up. I introduced salmon and grass fed beef. Working on cutting those back to once each a week.

Eat duck eggs with tons of greens and peppers, garlic, carrot juice, broccoli, avacado and big salds as much as possible- which can be hard but working on it.

Sweet potatoes.

Lots of almonds, walnuts, macadamia nuts(no word of macadamia nuts being bad not much on them good??

Thanks for this thread and topic. I am learning more each day.

Chloesmom

I recently heard that countries that use recycled water a lot ( like Israel) are having men with reduced sperm counts. The estrogen from birth control pills is not filtered out Women take the pills and the hormones are flushed down the toilet when they void. We have been drinking estrogen pee. All these years before BC I stayed away from soy etc and was drinking estrogen .

pipers_dream

I heard in the IV room at my alt doc's yesterday that a leading St Louis naturopath has said that 20 mg melatonin each night makes an adequate to superior stand-in for tamoxifen. If you wake up too groggy, you can work up to that dose. Also, cherries are high in melatonin and they are high on the ORAC scale, esp the sour pie cherries. I have 3 cherry trees in my backyard--pie cherries--yay! Got a bumper crop this year.

husband11

There is some preliminary research that showed melatonin combined with tamoxifen has a synergistic effect, but I'm not sure about melatonin on its own being equal to or superior to tamoxifen. My wife was on tamoxifen plus 20mg melatonin nightly for 5 years and now has a metastatic recurrance of her ER positive breast cancer. Not only that, the biopsy of the metastasis still shows 9/9 for both Er and Pr positive. Clearly the hormonal treatment failed, despite the cells still being classed at fully hormone receptor positive. Can't blame either treatment, other than to observe that the benefits, if any, clearly don't last forever.

Owens69

I am 47 yrs old. I have had a lumpectomy. I finished radiation just over two weeks ago. I have an appointment coming up with my medical oncologist who has already told me she wants me to take tamox. I, however, due to possible SE's do not want to go that route. It is my understanding that the reason for taking tamox is to block estrogen from getting to the breasts. In the research that I have done on my own, one of the biggest contributions to estrogen dominance is obesity. When weight is at a healthy level, estrogen is at a healthy level. I have purchased the DIM + 13C product and plan to start this after I meet with the oncologist. I am also going to focus on getting extra weight off, as I have about 60 lbs to lose. I am also planning to begin a work out regime as well. These are a lot of changes, but I feel much better about fighting cancer the natural way instead of pumping my system with drugs.

barbski60

Owens69 - I agree with you - I am not looking forward to going on hormonal therapy. I am asking my MO if the estrogen will be monitored - why take the pills if there is no estrogen (provided that I can lose weight - I read that BMI should be around 20 - not sure if this is correct or not). I meet with him in a few weeks. I also want to ask if I will metabolize the pills properly (I think there is a test for this - not sure) - no sense taking with possible SE if my body won't process it right.

I also asked about possible diet changes such as eliminating dairy, soy, meat, sugar - essentially a plant based diet (not sure if I can give up eggs and fish completely - maybe I will have these on special occasions - like my birthday). I am also planning on working out 2 hours a day - one of the SE is weight gain - right now I need to lose about at least 50-60 lbs - hopefully I'll be able to lose weight!

Good luck and take care!

dtad

This again is the 60,000 dollar question. Why are we prescribed a drug that has a SE of weight gain and mobility issues? Just doesn't make sense to me. I have decided to lower my estrogen levels naturally also. I have lost 22 pounds, exercise daily and take DIM. Its only been 18 months since diagnosis but so far so good. I have multiple autoimmune disease so QOL is my utmost concern. Good luck to all navigating this disease....

brooksidevt

Dtad, could you explain to me how DIM works? What I have read indicates that it is a form of estrogen that "balances" the estrogen produced by our fat. Is that right? Is it maybe an estrogen that estrogen receptors do not recognize? That would be pretty attractive!

Fallleaves

Here's an interesting article about how various phytoestrogens, including DIM may prevent BC metastasis:

Roles of Dietary Phytoestrogens on the Regulation of Epithelial-Mesenchymal Transition in Diverse Cancer Metastasis.

"The hallmarks of EMT in cancer cells include changed cell morphology and increased metastatic capabilities in cell migration and invasion. Therefore, prevention of EMT is an important tool for the inhibition of tumor metastasis. A novel preventive therapy is needed, such as treatment of natural dietary substances that are nontoxic to normal human cells, but effective in inhibiting cancer cells. Phytoestrogens, such as genistein, resveratrol, kaempferol and 3,3'-diindolylmethane (DIM), can be raised as possible candidates. They are plant-derived dietary estrogens, which are found in tea, vegetables and fruits, and are known to have various biological efficacies, including chemopreventive activity against cancers. Specifically, these phytoestrogens may induce not only anti-proliferation, apoptosis and cell cycle arrest, but also anti-metastasis by inhibiting the EMT process in various cancer cells.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC492612...

But that study also cites another study that seemed concerning:

Low levels of 3,3′-diindolylmethane activate estrogen receptor α and induce proliferation of breast cancer cells in the absence of estradiol

"The estrogen receptor is highly expressed in almost 70% of breast cancer cases and its activation promotes cellular proliferation and tumor development [45]. Our results demonstrate that DIM, at concentrations likely attainable by a diet rich in cruciferous vegetables, induces proliferation of MCF7 and T47D breast cancer cells in the absence of E2 (estradiol). DIM requires that ERα be activated by the PKA signaling pathway to promote cellular growth in the absence of E2. Consequently, the abundance of ERα, as well as circulating estrogen levels, will influence the local effects of DIM on cell growth. Altogether, our findings suggest that the use of DIM as a dietary supplement or as a therapeutic agent should be undertaken very cautiously as unexpected adverse effects could be encountered."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC422352...

LizM

I chose to take anti-hormonal treatment (10 years of an AI) but now that I am done, I am very interested in continuing my treatment with an anti-estrogen diet. I have done a lot of reading over the years on what constitutes a good diet for those of us diagnosed with ER+ breast cancer, and I have found that for every research article that says one thing is good (DIM/flaxseeds, etc), there is another article that says it is bad. I have come to the conclusion that a high fiber/low fat ORGANIC diet with variety of fruits and veggies, organic grass fed dairy, beef (no hormones), and wild caught fish, no alcohol, and low BMI (less than 20), exercise, and plenty of rest is about as good as it gets. By at least striving to do all of these things, I feel like I am doing something to keep the breast cancer away. Will it work, I don't know but I feel like I have to try.

frill

Does anyone know if there is a estrogen level we're shooting for? I agree so wholeheartedly with Owens69, if obesity is a huge factor, why give me something that is going to make me fat? On the one hand, yes, for women who have problems losing weight, it's not a choice they want to make at the outset, (I'm not trying to start a weight discussion, I've been every weight so that's not what I'm getting at) or whatever the reason AND who have high levels of estrogen, Tamoxifen or its friends is a course of action. But what about a woman who trains for marathons at the get-go, has no body fat, is vegan - I'm just trying to think of the "perfect" super healthy low body fat person - why would she automatically need the same thing, other than the just in case factor?

But if I've lost weight - right now I'm 8 pounds from top of "normal" range - and my estradiol level is 12(!!!), do I *really* automatically, right out of the box, need to be given this stuff? I had to fight to determine the estrogen levels. MO ordered the tests when I started not behaving right and said no to the big T. If I would have known better, I would have made them run this test before chemo, too, for comparison purposes.

I have my bottle of DIM ready. I was taking it before surgery, then cut out 90% of my supplements because of chemo. Since I'm done with chemo, is it time for that? But Falleaves second study seemed concerning, too. It's seems again, like some individualization is key to post-treatment treatment.

I hope this isn't too off-topic. It just keeps coming up as a question for me.

Momine

To me, it comes down to evidence. The evidence for DIM is sketchy and ambiguous. For my particular cancer (lobular), there is a large-scale study proving the efficacy of AIs, so I will stick to that for now. As we learn more and more studies are done, perhaps a better approach will emerge

brooksidevt

Thank you for the DIM info, Fallleaves. To me it sounds as though DIM might have been a good option to help reduce risk pre-breast cancer, but once there are cancer cells hanging around, it probably encourages them. For me, tamoxifen alone is how I'll go until more uniformly positive studies show up.

yoga_girl

What are bioidentical hormones?

Many women and health experts continue to struggle with the turnaround in attitude toward hormone therapy in the wake of the Women's Health Initiative (WHI) trial of combined estrogen and progestin (as Prempro) for preventing later-life ills. The trial was stopped early, in 2002, because hormone users had a higher risk of breast cancer, heart disease, stroke, and blood clots. Though the added risks were small, many women and their clinicians concluded they must discontinue hormone therapy. Many of these women found that hot flashes, sleeplessness, and other menopausal symptoms returned with a vengeance

the full article is located:

http://www.health.harvard.edu/womens-health/what-are-bioidentical-hormones

yoga_girl

Bio-identical Hormone Replacement Therapy

to read the full reference page from Body Logic MD:

http://www.bodylogicmd.com/bioidentical-hormone-therapy?tid=cpc.bing.search.brand.bioidentical+hormone+replacement.%2Bbioidentical%20hormone%20replacement.e.o.c&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=bioidentical%20hormone%20replacement&utm_campaign=search+brand

~~~~~

to read the full reference page from Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bioidentical_hormone_replacement_therapy

Jump to: navigation, search

Bioidentical hormone replacement therapy (BHRT), also known as bioidentical hormone therapy or natural hormone therapy, is a term referring to the use of hormones that are identical on a molecular level with endogenous hormones in hormone replacement therapy. It may also be combined with blood and saliva testing of hormone levels, and the use of pharmacy compounding to obtain hormones in an effort to reach a targeted level of hormones in the body. A number of claims by some proponents of bioidentical hormone replacement therapy have not been definitively established through scientific testing. Specific hormones used in BHRT include estrone, estradiol, progesterone (which are available both in FDA-approved manufactured products and as pharmacy-compounded products), testosterone, dehydroepiandrosterone (both testosterone and dehydroepiandrosterone have some stringent limits placed on their availability and approval in Canada and the United States), and estriol (which is available in Europe but is not approved in Canada and the United States).

Custom-compounded BHRT is a practice almost wholly restricted to the United States.^[1] BHRT is a form of alternative medicine, and has been promoted as a panacea for many diseases in addition to being a means of relieving the symptoms of menopause and/or reducing the risk of osteoporosis (historically, the goals of hormone replacement therapy in allopathic medicine). There is little evidence to support many of these claims; the hormones are expected to have the same risks and benefits of comparable approved drugs for which there is an evidence base and extensive research and regulation. The exception is progesterone, which may have an improved safety profile than artificial progestogens, though direct comparisons with progestins have not been made. Risks associated with the process of compounding bioidentical hormones are not clearly understood. In addition, the accuracy and efficacy of saliva testing has not been definitively proven, and the long-term effects of using blood testing to reach target levels of hormones have not been researched.

Momine

Yoga girl, thanks for your post. I have read a fair amount (a while ago) about hormone replacement, "balancing" etc. I could not find anything that seemed definitive or convincing in terms of "balancing" estrogens etc. as an approach to BC treatment.

My own feeling has always been that menopause exists for a reason and should not be considered evil.