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VITAMIN K2 combined with Vitamin D3 IMPROVES bone density

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  • Italychick
    Italychick Member Posts: 527
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    I don't take K1. I take 6 mg of boron, and I haven't found a combined supplement. Do you also take fish oil, or eat a lot of oily fish? I take a pharmaceutical grade of fish oil supplement and also vitamin e because I am terrible at getting enough fish in my diet. I always think I will, but I don't. And I also worry about mercury levels in fish too, sigh. If it isn't one thing, it's another.

    I take the K2 twice a day.

    Below are two boron supplements I have taken. I'm taking the Twin Labs right now, but both are good products. I have both in my cabinet. We got a deal on the Twin Labs, super cheap.


    image


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  • new2bc
    new2bc Member Posts: 253
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    italychick,

    Be careful about vitamin E. I have found 2 articles since my diagnosis that states not to take vitamin E:

    http://arstechnica.com/science/2015/10/myths-about...

    http://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/suppleme...


  • Italychick
    Italychick Member Posts: 527
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    it's the form of vitamin e that can be problematic. There are a lot of different forms, and I stay away from synthetic forms.

  • exercise_guru
    exercise_guru Member Posts: 333
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    I think wheat germ oil has the broadest Vitamin E and is not synthetic.

  • marijen
    marijen Member Posts: 2,181
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    Italy chick, please how do you know it's synthetic or not?

  • macb04
    macb04 Member Posts: 756
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    Hi Marijen,

    Here ishttps://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/VitaminE-HealthProfessional/

    I take a Vitamin E that has mixed forms in it. Vitamin E is divided into tocopherols and tocotrienols. There is good data on Tocotrienols and breast cancer, inducing apotosis, irregardless of hormones status. I take a liquid version and make sure I take it with food.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3250526/

    http://m.carcin.oxfordjournals.org/content/33/2/233.full

    I know people won't necessarily like this Life Extension article, it is old from 2002, but the above articles, but those two are from 2012.

    http://www.lifeextension.com/magazine/2002/5/cover_vitamine/page-01

  • Italychick
    Italychick Member Posts: 527
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    I think natural forms are d-gamma tocopherol or d-alpha tocopherol, there may be others. If it is a tocopheryl or an acetate form, it is synthetic. There are other names the synthetics use, but I don't know all of them.

    Macb04 did a great post.

  • marijen
    marijen Member Posts: 2,181
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    yes! Thanks macb04. So far I see Vit E is not good for low platelets and radiation, I'll keep studying the rest. And thanks also Italy chick..

  • macb04
    macb04 Member Posts: 756
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    Thanks Italychick and Marijen and everyone, for your comments. Really enjoying these thoughtful discussions.

    I am very glad that I was able to start this posting, glad to be getting the info out there to allow all of us women to make informed decisions for ourselves.

  • Italychick
    Italychick Member Posts: 527
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    Marijen, just to be clear, I cut out all antioxidants for a week surrounding every chemo infusion, and I still skip themfor my Herceptin infusions. The data is so muddled about antioxidants during treatment that I wasn't willing to take a chance, if that makes sense. So I totally get the no vitamin e during radiation since I skip all antioxidant stuff around infusions.

  • marijen
    marijen Member Posts: 2,181
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    Italy chick, it's hard to understand how something that's supposed to be good for us - antioxidants - helps the cancer too. I will stop them whether this RO tells me to or not. So far I've received no guidance from my "team" on diet or anything else. They do say to stay away from supplements because they aren't regulated or whatever the word is. My words are going with the estrogen brain drain I'm afraid.

  • LovingIsLiving
    LovingIsLiving Member Posts: 89
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    This is interesting! I'm going to pick up some Vitamin K2+D3 today. I want to strengthen my bones as much as possible so I can switch to an AI in a year.

  • wallycat
    wallycat Member Posts: 1,348
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    For anyone that cares to post...

    From all I am reading, low blood levels of calcium cause the bones to leach calcium to balance the blood value, so isn't that counterproductive to try to lower your blood calcium levels??

    Also, I have been reading that boron may increase estrogen in the body....thoughts?

    love reading your posts!

  • macb04
    macb04 Member Posts: 756
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    Heart disease is the number 1 cause of death in women. A known fixture of heart disease is Atherosclerosis, which is a mixture of fatty plaque deposits combined with Calcifications that adhere to vessel walls, causing narrowing of the size (lumen ) of critical blood vessels of the heart. Cardiologists often, if they are practicing up to date care, do a test to check for Calcifications in Coronary Blood Vessels, resulting in a Calcium Score. Calcifications of these blood vessels are an abnormal finding.

    So, if these Calcifications are proven to occur, then there is a very low liklihood of having low serum calcium values, resulting in calcium being leeched from the bones.Vitamin D, in concert with Vitamin K2 keeps the Calcium bone/blood level in balance.

  • wallycat
    wallycat Member Posts: 1,348
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    Macb04,

    I am a dietitian (and a medical librarian) so well aware of the heart disease situation. Atherosclerosis starts with inflammation...damage to the arterial walls with constant inflammation. The body tries to repair that with plaque...which can calcify, but it is a lipid in the preliminary stages.

    Italychick posted saying she lowered her blood calcium value and I was wondering what the purpose was (what did I miss) and if I missed anything as to why this may be a desired effect.

    Calcium scoring looks at the plaque in arteries.....blood calcium values do not correlate to "calcium scoring" for the purposes of atherosclerosis, as far as I can tell. Bones help balance the calcium levels in our blood and if it is low, the bones let go of calcium to bring up the value...homeostasis and all that.

    Appreciate your post...just trying to learn and stay on top of things.


  • Italychick
    Italychick Member Posts: 527
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    wallycat, I tried to find something to explain my thought process, but haven't found anything 100% on point. I got tired of trying to get past all the supplement company sites on google looking for good data. So here is my crude attempt to explain what I am doing.

    D3 raises calcium levels. Calcium isn't absorbed by the body properly without the right amount of D3. But if my calcium is already on the high side, then D3 supplementation will push me out of range. So I added K2 to get my calcium level into the low side of the normal range so I could then work to get my d level into the correct range.

    Hopefully my awkward explanation makes sense.

  • ceanna
    ceanna Member Posts: 3,120
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    My understanding comes from Kate Rheaume-Bleue's book "Vitamin K2 and the Calcium Paradox" (which I learned about in this thread) is that K2 helps the calcium go to the bones instead of circulating in the blood, thus lowering heart and osteoporosis risks. I have had slightly evaluated blood calcium for a number of years. Not enough that it concerns my endocrinologist, but just out of the high end of normal range. I have tried K2, along with the 5000IU of Vit. D3 I take daily and have had a slight decrease in blood calcium levels as of last blood tests. Unfortunately, the K2 seems to set off a fast heartbeat and palpitations in me, so I've stopped taking it for the time being. I need to study that more before resuming K2.

  • wallycat
    wallycat Member Posts: 1,348
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    Thanks ladies!

  • gentianviolet
    gentianviolet Member Posts: 105
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    Ceanna - I, too, had side effects from K2. However feeling it was important I started taking low dose K2 and have not had a problem with it at all. It contains 45 mcg as menaquinone-7 in a softgel. I have taken 1 a day for years and have never had a problem with that dose.

  • corky60
    corky60 Member Posts: 453
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    K2 also causes problems for me. I have varicose veins and wear support hosiery. When I took K2 it thickened my blood. My legs actually hurt. I pricked my finger on a thorn and I stopped bleeding with the first drop. I think K2 made it difficult for my leg veins to move the blood back up.

    And it's not just K2 that's the problem. So is boron and strontium. I have osteopenia and with my family history I will get osteoporosis.

    These side effects are uncommon but others do get them so FYI.

  • LovingIsLiving
    LovingIsLiving Member Posts: 89
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    Thanks for bringing that up Corky60. With me being on tamoxifen I wonder if it's ok for me to take Vitamin k2. From what I read I thought it interacts with blood thinners and that supplementing vitamin k2 should not cause blood clots. I will ask my MO when I see her in 3 weeks and ask about testing my INR (blood clotting test). For now I'm going to take it every other day or every 3 days.

  • zogo
    zogo Member Posts: 19,396
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    Vitamin K interacts with blood thinners. Vitamin K2 is a completely different thing. Checking with your doctor is always a good idea.

    Although, the dose of K2 for those on coumadin is lower than for others. It is addressed in the book "Vitamin K2 and the Calcium Paradox" that I mentioned earlier in the thread.


  • LovingIsLiving
    LovingIsLiving Member Posts: 89
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    In the meantime I'm going to take a baby aspirin (primary said it was okay) to counteract any clotting issues. Thanks for all the info.

  • grandma3X
    grandma3X Member Posts: 297
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    Here's a good review article on the vitamin K2-calcium interactions and how they affect bone and cardiovascular health:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26770129

    The interaction with Vit. D is more convoluted - from what I understand (I'm a biochemist but not a medical doctor) Vitamin D increases circulating blood calcium levels, while Vit. K2 is a cofactor for an enzyme that activates other enzymes involved in binding of osteocalcin, produced by osteoblasts, to the bone matrix. So K2 is essential to moving that increased calcium from blood into building bone mass.

    I looked for information on foods with Vit. K2 and found this website, which has lists of foods, how much K2 is in them, and includes references:

    https://honey-guide.com/2014/03/10/menaquinones-k2...


  • marijen
    marijen Member Posts: 2,181
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    I need more K2 can anyone recommend a good brand? I'm using Vitacost. Just wonder if there's something better

  • zogo
    zogo Member Posts: 19,396
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    I use Jarrow K2-MK7, 90mcg, once daily



  • macb04
    macb04 Member Posts: 756
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    I don't like Jarrow that much because it has stearic acid or Magnesium stearate in a lot of its supplements. i

    I take Vit D 3/K2 Mulson by Pharmax

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  • chisandy
    chisandy Member Posts: 11,407
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    Because my DEXAscan showed osteopenia even before I started letrozole, I take 1200 mg. calcium (citrate, since I can’t absorb carbonate due to the PPI I need to take for severe GERD), 500 mg. Mg., 5000 IU D3 and recently added 100 mcg of K2 (Whole Foods brand). If your diastolic BP has gone up, check the inactive ingredients list--perhaps your K2 has sodium in one of its binders?

    I take an 81 mg aspirin daily for cardioprevention. But my husband (a cardiologist) assures me that K2 doesn’t cancel out that protection--the concern is with the interaction between K (not K2) and anticoagulants such as warfarin or antiplatelet therapy drugs like Plavix or Pradaxa.

  • zogo
    zogo Member Posts: 19,396
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    macb, you are absolutely right about staying away from the stearates!

    The Jarrow K2 does not have them, but thanks for the heads up. I will keep an eye out for that in the future.

    I also take the D3-K2 Mulsion. Either from Genestra or Pharmax.

  • marijen
    marijen Member Posts: 2,181
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    Hi macb04. Where do you buy it