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VITAMIN K2 combined with Vitamin D3 IMPROVES bone density

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  • macb04
    macb04 Member Posts: 756
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    flashlight, why did you lower down your Vitamin D3 dosage from 5,000 to 2,500IU? Since the 5,000 IU dose got you to such an excellent blood level, wouldn’t continuing that same dosage make sense?


    The normal range for Vitamin D3 is 30 to100ng/mL, so you are only roughly in the middle of the safe range, nowhere near the top toxic level.

  • macb04
    macb04 Member Posts: 756
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    Hi flashlight. Why did you lower your Vitamin D dosage down from 5,000 to 2,500IU/day?

    Since your blood values of Vitamin D were really excellent at 56, why not just continue to take the 5,000IU daily dose that got you to that value?

    Your blood level of Vitamin D was roughly in the middle of the safe range. The normal range is 30 to 100ng/mL, so you were nowhere near toxicity.

  • flashlight
    flashlight Member Posts: 311
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    Hi, I do get some Vit D in some other supplements. My liver function labs finally came back normal. Trying to keep a balance. Hopefully get outside in the sunshine if it ever stops snowing!!

  • lillyishere
    lillyishere Member Posts: 775
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    macb04, each drop of Pure Encapsulation liquid has 1000IU. I started 2 drops to get to normal levels of 50 and now back to 1000IU to maintain it. I used to take vitamin K2 and I still have some left but if you eat eggs, chicken, and dairy then you don't need extra K2. I'm trying not to overdue the vitamin supplements because they can go on the danger zone. High quality supplements are very powerful and less in more.

  • macb04
    macb04 Member Posts: 756
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    https://www.intechopen.com/books/vitamin-k2-vital-for-health-and-wellbeing/vitamin-k2-and-bone-health


    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4042573/

    A dose-finding study of menatetrenone in Japan [7] administered daily doses of 15, 45, 90, and 135 mg and revealed that 45 mg was the minimum effective dose for improving bone mass parameters evaluated by microdensitometry and/or single photon absorptiometry in postmenopausal women with osteoporosis. This optimal dose (45 mg/day) for the treatment of osteoporosis is about 150–180 times greater than the recommended daily dietary intake of vitamin K (250–300 μg) [8]. No toxic effects of menatetrenone (45 mg/day) have been reported [7]. High-dose vitamin K is needed to prevent fractures in postmenopausal women with osteoporosis [9]
    —————————————————————————————————————————————

    LillyIsHere, you can not get to danger zone easily, safe range for Vitamin D is 30 to 100 ng/mL. Since your blood level was around 50 then you were nowhere near toxicity. Far from a dangerous toxic level.

    Vitamin K2 has no upper limit of toxicity at all. In Japan women are on the MK-4 form of Vitamin K2 at a dose of 45mg ( 45,000mcg) per day, for prevention and treatment of osteoporosis, at a dose about 500 times stronger than the 90 mcg’s recommended daily by the US institute of Medicine. Women take that dose FOR YEARS. Safely, with ZERO side effects.

    If having various animal products in your diet were enough we would not have such rampant amounts of osteoporosis. On a global basis, osteoporosis causes more than 88.9 million fractures annually. That’s a huge number of mostly women suffering with life altering, painful fractures.









  • corky60
    corky60 Member Posts: 453
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    Something is wrong with me. I cannot take Vitamin K2 because it makes the veins in my legs hurt. Excruciating. My naturopath has never heard of such a thing. I eat Gouda cheese occasionally to get a bit of Vitamin K.

    Does anyone know if there's a syndrome or other reason for being unable to take vitamin K? I have osteopenia and all of the women in my family have had osteoporosis. I am currently taking Vitamin D and collagen.

  • macb04
    macb04 Member Posts: 756
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    Wow Corky,

    So that’s one I haven’t heard of before. What form/brand/dose of Vitamin K2 did you take that caused this problem? Any history of blood clots? Phlebitis? Vasospasm? Intermittent claudication?

  • ceanna
    ceanna Member Posts: 3,120
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    Corky, I can relate. I have tried Vit K a couple of times at different amounts, and always feel off when I take. Not pain like you mention, but not good. I always think it's a fine line we walk when we try to take one vitamin and it messes with other things. I have tried different vitamins and minerals over the decades and often don't feel like I should continue taking. These levels in our systems can get out of balance, and one size does not fit all when it comes to vitamin amounts and which ones. Right now I've settled on a good mix for me of Vit D, C, B12, magnesium, and a baby aspirin.

    On Vit. D, I found my test levels never improved much from a very low level until I started taking Vit. D3 in a flaxseed oil base (Trader Joe's). I don't seem to absorb soy based vitamins.

    On osteoporosis, I had Dexa scan three years ago which showed osteopenia, and also had high blood calcium levels. After years of abnormal calcium and PTH (parathyroid) testing, it was found I had a parathyroid adenoma. An easy surgery to remove the adenoma immediately returned the blood calcium levels to normal, and after two years, my latest Dexa scan showed a marked improvement in the osteopenia--in fact one hip now shows no osteopenia. If you're having blood tests, ask your doctors about testing your parathyroid levels.

  • lillyishere
    lillyishere Member Posts: 775
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    Interesting ceanna. I started calcium+vit D3 + K2 and in 4-5 months my blood levels showed high blood calcium and I developed a lump in my thyroid. I stopped them all and blood calcium got back to normal. I still have the lump but the doctor who did a biopsy said to check it out yearly. If it grows, I will ask to remove it. You can't see it but it 1.5cm.

  • flashlight
    flashlight Member Posts: 311
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    Hi LillyIsHere, I remember looking this up last year and I don't know if this relevant to you, but I thought I would post it. Patients who received letrozole for a longer duration had a low concentration of serum 25 (OH) vitamin D. Vitamin D3 and calcium supplementation increased the concentrations of calcium, phosphorous and decreased the concentrations of parathyroid hormone and alkaline. I understand why you can't take the K2 and calcium supplements. ceanna, That is a good idea I'm going to check with my doctor about having my parathyroid level checked.

    corky60, Did you check with your GP as well about your leg pain?

  • ceanna
    ceanna Member Posts: 3,120
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    Lilly, did you have your PTH levels checked? You said the lump was in the thyroid. Your four tiny parathyroid glands sit behind the thyroid and I don't think a doctor can really feel them unless there is an adenoma, and then it's still tricky to diagnose. There are scans and such for physical testing, but often still don't find the adenoma. Blood levels of calcium, PTH, and even thyroid hormones can vary widely even if there is a problem. After years of too high blood calcium and the start of kidney problems due to the high calcium, I had to find a parathyroid specialist before diagnosis and removal. I now have had normal calcium levels, normal kidney tests, and improvement in the osteopenia, for which I am grateful!

    Flashlight, interesting research. Thanks for sharing. Hope your PTH tests comes back normal!!

    If anyone is interested in more reading and research, you can check out the High Blood Calcium thread https://community.breastcancer.org/forum/105/topics/737868 and the Parathyroid disease and BC thread https://community.breastcancer.org/forum/96/topics/784308 Both threads are not active right now, but lots of good information, and if you post a specific question there, someone is likely to get back with you!.

  • redhead403
    redhead403 Member Posts: 65
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    try kimchee or sauerkraut or other fermented foods. Lots of Vit k there

  • macb04
    macb04 Member Posts: 756
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    redhead 403, Kimchi is much better source of Vitamin K1 (phylloquinone) than Vitamin Vitamin K2 (menaquinone).

    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/327842646_Determination_of_vitamin_K_composition_of_fermented_food

    Abstract

    A rapid ultra-high performance liquid chromatography–atmospheric pressure chemical ionization tandem mass spectrometric (UHPLC-APCI-MS/MS) method was developed for the analysis of vitamin K compounds: phylloquinone (PK) and menaquinone (MK-n). Non-chlorinated mobile phase composition was optimized for separation of eight vitamin K compounds on a reversed phase column in 10 min. Sample treatment with liquid and solid phase extractions and by the use of MK-4 as an internal standard enabled the quantitation of microgram level of vitamin K compounds in food. The method was used to screen and quantitate vitamin K from 17 fermented food products. The highest amount of PK was detected in kimchi (42 µg/100 g), whereas the highest MK-7 content was detected in natto (902 µg/100 g). Some MK-9 was present in kefir (5 µg/100 g). Two Chinese fermented soybean pastes contained significant amount of MK-6 (5–36 µg/100 g), MK-7 (12–86 µg/100 g), and MK-8 (22–44 µg/100 g).
  • Jewelweed
    Jewelweed Member Posts: 46
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    Natto tastes like very old funky gooey Bleu cheese that is way past it's prime, but I will learn to like it if it produces these results!

  • michelle49
    michelle49 Member Posts: 11
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    Hello! I had my DEXA done after 2 years and I got the results. I stopped taking Letrozole 2 years ago the same time the last DEXA was taken. I decided to stop after 4 years because the osteoporosis was worsening. The one taken at the lumbar spine was unchanged but the one one taken of the hip showed significant interval improvement from Total hip T=score of -2.2 to now at -1.6, an increase of 0.747. The femoral neck T-score from -2.1 improved to -1.9, a difference of 0.639!


    I'm thinking if the lumbar spine did not changed, that's also good because it was trending lower. I'm really pleased that what I'm doing is working. I'm taking Vitamin D3 (2000 daily), Vitamin K2 (Osteo-K but only ⅓ dose), magnesium (200 mg) and calcium (500 mg). I'm planning on doubling the doses except for Vitamin D which I will increase only a bit more. Vitamin D levels decreased to 44 from 53 for some reason. I was doing lots of weight bearing exercises but slacked off the last year because work got too overwhelming. Vitamin K2 works!

  • Esther01
    Esther01 Member Posts: 229
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    Congratulations Michelle, on your improved DEXA scan scores! That's wonderful!

    At diagnosis, my vitamin D level was 45. I thought that was great, but my IMD said I needed it twice that to really fight this cancer so she put me on 10,000IU daily with K2. Now my D level is at 90 and my liver enzymes are happy. She emphasized that I need the K2 with the D. I take OrthoMolecular Liquid D3 with K2 (Superior Source has a good sublingual D3/K2 as well), and magnesium - OptiMag Neuro by Xymogen (1-2 scoops daily) and other supplements specifically personalized for me by my doctor.

    Blessings,

    Esther

  • lillyishere
    lillyishere Member Posts: 775
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    ceanna, I just saw your post from February 21 :)). My thyroid and parathyroid levels are normal. I got paranoid of messing up with many vitamins I was taking that caused blood thinning and bruises. Currently, I am taking kids multivitamin and fish oil. I will add vitamin D when winter comes.

  • minustwo
    minustwo Member Posts: 13,196
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    Funny - I just ask my endocrinologist last week about adding K-2 as a supplement. He said the studies show a benefit for people of Japanese descent but so far there is no evidence that K-2 supplements make any difference for Caucasians. He did say 45 mg wouldn't hurt, but he couldn't recommend it. I do take Vitamin D both included with calcium pills (Citracal w/D - 2 per day) and an additional 2000 ICU per day. My last DEXA scan was two years ago & the Prolia shots had brought me back from osteoporosis to osteopenia. New tests are scheduled for December. I'll have to go back & read this whole thread.

    Edited to add - I am seeing my cardiologist tomorrow and had already planned to discuss K-2 with him.

  • ShetlandPony
    ShetlandPony Member Posts: 3,063
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    Interesting that your endocrinologist is talking about possible differences in efficacy with different populations. (I have read similar ideas related to the soy and breast cancer debate.) The COMB study was done in Canada, and it did show bone health benefit from a combination of DHA (from fish oil), D3, K2, strontium citrate, and magnesium. Dietary calcium and daily impact exercise were recommended as well. Who knows whether the K2 helped the Canadian women in this study or not? I would be interested in reading whatever studies your endocrinologist was talking about. There is a difference between recommending and okaying a patient's desire to take a particular supplement. Doctors don't want to actually recommend without a strong level of scientific evidence, but they can tell you if they know of any reasons your taking something could be harmful. My oncologist and endocrinologist okayed my plan to take four of the COMB supplements but cited safety concerns with the strontium, so I was happy to follow their advice to leave that out.

    https://www.hindawi.com/journals/jeph/2012/354151/


  • lillyishere
    lillyishere Member Posts: 775
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    MinusTwo, a friend of mine who is a doctor overseas, in Europe, was the first one to recommend me K2 together with calcium supplements. That means that Caucasians are using K2 as well.

    I do have a question for you all: what about bone-strengthening Zometa or similar? I started Zometa as an anti-cancer treatment that comes with a bonus to benefit the bones. Just curious what do your MOs think about this?

  • threetree
    threetree Member Posts: 1,471
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    I thought the jury was still out as to whether Zometa really helps prevent mets to the bones or not. I thought they had only determined that it was truly efficacious for bone building. I think the studies that say it helps reduce mets to bones are conflicting and even the ones that show a benefit show a relatively small one. This is just from what I've gathered here and there over the last couple of years, so have no specifics to offer. Would love to see them if someone else does.

  • ShetlandPony
    ShetlandPony Member Posts: 3,063
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    Lilly, my personal decision is to not take the bisphosphonates because I seem to be the one who gets rare side effects and extreme reactions, and the side effect of osteonecrosis of the jaw, while rare, sounds horrible to me and is not easily treated. The endocrinologist pointed out that a hip fracture is no picnic either, but I just can't bring myself to take it. I have learned to listen to my educated intuition. I do not have bone mets, so I have less reason to take the drug than some.

  • lillyishere
    lillyishere Member Posts: 775
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    SP, biophosphates are recommended every 6 months to people who don't have bone mets and I think monthly for bone mets. I schedule dentist appointments before the infusions. Also, I was recommended only 3 years, a total of 6 biphosphate infusions. One MO told me the first year of starting AI is when the bone density gets hit the most. Anyway, I started AI with normal bone density but I will take any anti-cancer treatments out there since I didn't have chemo. I still take calcium supplements and sometimes vitamin K2. My MO who I really trust also told me that taking biphosphate infusions protects bones from bone mets. I assume for these 3 years or so.

    ThreeTree, you are correct, the benefit of bisphosphonates as anti-cancer is very small but I take it. I think my MO mentioned that European studies have shown some benefit. As I mentioned before, in my case, I will take whatever anti-cancer treatments I can. Unfortunatelly, there are no easy tests to figure out recurrences. Especially, ILC is so tricky that even scans can't catch it.

  • Augustkm
    Augustkm Member Posts: 7
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    I once worked what was then the only manufacturer of Vitamin E capsules. We could request free vitamins but never synthetic E. Studies at that time indicated that only natural E was effective.

  • Augustkm
    Augustkm Member Posts: 7
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    When the Dr told me my calcium deposits in my breast were worrisome and that my breast medication would harm my bones, I remembered my use of Vitamin K forty years ago. Vitamin K supposedly reduces calcium deposits AND increases bone strength. I use a form that includes all the Vitamin K's from a company in FL. I also take D3. I do not yet know if I am on the right track.

    I am 75. Surgery for stage 1a, invasive in Feb, 2020.

  • windingshores
    windingshores Member Posts: 160
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    Just want to clarify: my Vitamin K2 supplement and the suggestion from my endo was for 45 mcg, not 45 mg.

  • Wert
    Wert Member Posts: 4
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    I want to take a supplement with calcium, vitamin D3, and vitamin K2 so the calcium goes to my bones rather than my arteries, but I'm worried about taking K2. Vitamin K2 is derived from soy which in turn is related to estrogen which in turn is not good for hormone positive breast cancer. It sounds like K2 is great for your heart, but I'm wondering if it can cause a breast cancer recurrence. No one seems to know anything about this...not even my medical oncologist.

  • lillyishere
    lillyishere Member Posts: 775
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    Wert, how about eating prunes, kiwi and avocado instead of the supplement? I am staying away from most supplements I used to take because they start interfering with letrozole.

  • Wert
    Wert Member Posts: 4
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    LillyIsHere, are those 3 foods high in calcium?

  • macb04
    macb04 Member Posts: 756
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    Wert, only some Vitamin K2 supplements come from soy. Vitamin K2 is also found in animal products like eggs, cheeses like Gouda.

    Supplemental calcium is linked to increased risk of heart attacks and strokes. Calcium from food is safe, not an increased risk.

    Without sufficient Vitamin K2, calcium will not be put into bone, but instead deposits into soft tissue spaces like blood vessels, cardiac valves, ect.