Diet and Lifestyle
Comments
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WildTulip I am also interested in angiogenesis. The problem I have with the list of foods on the link is that they are not specific to breast cancer. For instance, certain cheeses are recommended on the angiogenesis list but there is contrary evidence for breast cancer. I fall back on https://foodforbreastcancer.com/foods-to-avoid.php because it is specific. Foodforbreastcancer has the most evidence-based research that I can find, although even they acknowledge that more research is needed on many foods.
WC3, I hear you! It is so hard to wade through all the competing theories and information. 🤪🧐🤔 I think eventually you just have to choose a diet that you believe is best for your own personal health situation and fits with your values, then stick with it.
Moth, thanks for starting the new thread on plant based and vegan eating. I will be dropping by!
DebAL, welcome to our thread! You can certainly drink water while fasting. 💧 💦 I have heard that anything else ends the fasting process, but also that coffee is okay, others say up to 50 calories is ok e.g. milk in coffee. I do have a cup of coffee when I wake up and still consider it fasting. The thing I like most about a 13 hour overnight fast is that it encourages early dinner and ends night time snacking, both of which are good for sleep and also weight control. And there is also some evidence that overnight fasting reduces breast cancer recurrence. My approach to diet is to substitute new habits for bad ones and I like how overnight fasting makes me feel. So it is my new good habit 😇.
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WC3, thanks for adding that link! I had shared it on the original thread before it was deleted and never bothered to search for it again. So good for a laugh and a cry.0
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Thank you haps and dear life! I wouldn't mind trying it. A couple more silly questions. Do you all do this every night? I assume the hours don't matter as long as it's a 13 hr fast?. Given my work schedule there is never time for a break till 8am anyway. All I need is my coffee on the way in at 4 am. I could eat dinner as late as 630 pm the night before. I will remember to drink water. Thank you again for the advice!
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DebAL - I don't know what the literature says but I would assume (and yes, I know this makes me an ass) that it is better to eat early than to eat right before bed because in theory you'd burn up the glucose faster if you are awake than if you are asleep, and I think the point of fasting is to get your blood glucose pretty low for at least a few hours every day. I have no literature with which to back that up, and personally I rarely finish dinner before 8pm and I'm usually in bed no later than 10. So I usually fast mostly in the morning because that is the only way intermittent fasting works for me. I will also be doing occasional (1-2x per year) 3-5 day fasts which are supposed to "reset" your immune system, though that is also not very well backed by science. But I figure it is easy and free and won't hurt and might help. I did one fast before chemo, which supposedly helps with side effects and with making the chemo more effective, but I must admit it did nothing for my side effects - that was one of my worst rounds in fact.
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Thanks again hapa! I ate last at 6 tonight so I might as well give it a whirl. I'm pretty close to doing this already. Even if I drink a smoothie last at 8pm like I do sometimes I rarely have anything else till 9am. Most of my awake fasting is just done on the back end which is a bit weird. With working so early I'm not hungry till several hours into my shift anyway. I just need that coffee with a splash of milk on my drive in but may try it black. I'll let you know how it goes!
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Pi-Xi:
It's pretty dead on isn't it!
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WC3, too true!!!
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I think 'we' ( as in science) actually know a lot about nutrition & that there is a lot people seeding deliberate misinformation and confusion just to sell books & diet programs & tabloids & as fodder for stupid shows on tv and radio..... and that certain farm & industry lobbyists are manipulating info all the time, and they deliberately keep people confused and get everyone to be cynical and shrug "oh who knows? one day they say this, the next day they say that".
I just don't think that's true - because for one thing, who is 'they'? That often is never really mentioned and when you start digging you discover for example that some anti olive oil study was funded by the dairy industry just so that some announcer could cheerfully say on tv 'looks like maybe butter is back after all!' etc etc.The Last Conversation You'll Ever Need to Have About Eating Right
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moth:
I've given up oils and everything good and buttery at the moment. I bought some imitation butter emulsion from a baking supply company but the reviews were right, it's more like butterscotch flavored than butter flavored. A jug of pure diacetyl is looking very appealing right now.
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B"H
WC3 -- I APPLAUD you, truly I applaud you... and I thank you!!!
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WC3,
You make me smile - and I laughed out loud. You see not only do I cook my own food but I am trying to grow my own - not everything but strangely quite a few things come out a very small plot. I still eat butter, and lots of olive oil, and I have ordered a book called "This cheese is nuts". Will I like it ? Don't know but I am willing to explore. From your previous post I sensethat your instinct is strong and you have sifted through what is important to you.
With the exception of one breast, soon to be two, I have given up nothing HUGE so far, well I don't know about the future - but for now I work, I bring up children, I try to eat as well as I can, run a little, swim and garden....
😉🌷
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I have been 13 hrs plus fasting every single day for about 10 weeks. I try to finish eating around 6-7 pm. I do not eat, but do drink water several times, before 11 am. I ride my bike every am around 7 am for 10 plus miles. I then work in my garden. Keep drinking water. My husband is skinny so I keep encouraging him to eat all morning without me, until I finally eat around 11am or noon. I do not feel hungry nor weak doing this.
I eat eggs, fresh raspberries and strawberries from my garden each day. I eat beans, flax, Kale, broccoli, cauliflower, purple grapes, green tea, green leaf lettuce, carrots. I will bake chicken and salmon. I eat a 1/2 bagel a day which is my treat. No cookies, cakes, ice cream, white bread. I do make flatbread with rosemary, thyme, and spelt. I will use sparingly honey, or molasses or real maple sugar. I changed my diet by eliminating soda, breads, cereals, and other items I just mentioned. I should eat more oranges. I eat limes and lemons in my ginger drink.
If I am on the road and stop for food, the options are usually lousy. However, I want to mention a lovely gesture today that honestly made me teary eyed. We were on a bike ride and the trail passed through a small, quaint country town. The park had a picnic area where I could see many eating. I was hungry as we were doing about 18 miles today and it was noon which is time for me to eat. Another rider stopped and told us to go get our free meal. She explained the women in town make a free meal each week for anybody. There were bikers there and seniors from town as well as kids. They were the most friendly people. They had made all kinds of food. What a wonderful gesture. We of course gave them money which apparently they save until school begins to help pay for lunches for kids that financially need help. BTW, the scenery was beyond gorgeous. Wisconsin is a gorgeous state. It was a perfect day.0 -
I did a little reading on 13-hour fasting since the last time we talked about this. The only reason to not take liquids, especially water, would be if you were fasting for religious reasons. For health reasons, definitely water! And coffee, tea, everyone seems to agree is fine, even with a splash of milk. Personally, I love the flexibility of it. I do tend to eat late in the evening, but once I decided this was one of my "things", it's been pretty easy to not eat until later in the morning/noon. It's an awfully flexible thing, given that you can stop earlier the night before if necessary, and a slip-up isn't a deal-breaker. I have not noticed a difference in my morning runs with or without a pre-bite, although I haven't been doing super-hard workouts. If I were, I would probably try to adjust my dinner time so I could eat something after my workout (13-16h fasting is pretty popular in fitness so there's a lot to read on that combination if you google).
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Redgirl and Chelsea, well I have made it 2 days and had no problem. Lol I have a feeling friday nights may trip me up from time to time. I would eat from 6p-8p so now I stop at 6. So busy at work that I sometimes don't eat till 11am anyway. So far so good and thanks for sharing your experiences!
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New research on the benefits of night time fasting:
“In this study we found that meal timing was associated with prostate and breast cancer risk and specifically that adherence to diurnal eating patterns and particularly early suppers and a longer supper‐sleep time interval were associated with a lower cancer risk. This is, to our knowledge, the first epidemiological study showing long term health effects associated with mistimed eating patterns.“
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I live in a farming community. I grew up in the same environment only in the NE vs the Midwest. The idea of eating on the farm was to refuel to do more work. 3 meals. Early to bed and rising early. They could eat anything. They worked it off. Food in, food out.
Some years ago, I was a working student for a horse operation. I was 43 at the time. A bit long in the tooth for that job. It was exhausting. I could eat anything. I was a rail. However, I also ate a box of donuts everyday plus a milkshake. Sugar, sugar, sugar....now we know how bad that was. I literally ate with the refrigerator door open grabbing stuff. I was so hungry. My diet was just terrible. I had no time. This was NOT the farm diet which was home cooking, food meant to stick to one’s ribs.
The other day watched Amish boys, again all very skinny, hauling huge logs pulled by a draft team of horses down a busy highway. Believe just getting horses tacked for the job is a chore.0 -
hapa, true, especially if we often don't really know what eating well means (see WC3's post above). I do see some progress though. Regarding noodles or pasta, centenarians in Okinawa or southern Italy I'm sure eat these, so it may be a matter of restricting the quantity or frequency. I am reading Longo's book, The Longevity Diet, and he likes to say we should eat what our ancestors ate in the old country, if possible. We've evolved to eat those foods. I am a mix of ancestry so I can eat everything. Haha. At least in moderation.
DebAL, I would take all three if I were you. You may not get 100% of the benefit with coffee or tea (nobody knows) but still a lot. When I was doing 17 hour fasts I would take coffee with milk before going to the gym. I needed that little bit of nutrition to workout. These days, rather, for the past 7+ years, I am only doing 12 - 13 hour fasts so a latte when I wake up is no problem.
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DebAL - I hear you about meal schedule conflicts with time-restricted eating. Sometimes the weekend throws me off. I think it's fine if we don't do a fast one day a week. I am striving for most of the time and not beating myself up if I fall short sometimes. It took me some time to get to a place where it became routine.
I also drink coffee in the morning before I work out - helps my energy level Immensely. Back when I started this routine, I thought I had to wait to drink coffee so I carried it to work. My parking lot is 4 blocks from the office - had to walk so carefully so I wouldn't slosh my coffee. Made the walk I love into a chore. I am so much happier drinking my coffee at home.
As far as diet misinformation goes, I think a lot of science is new in the last 30+ years. What we knew to be true when I was a kid has really changed. Or maybe when I was a kid - more women were working outside the house and more and more processed foods became available "Fortified with Vitamins!" to give women short cuts that they felt good about. I am not blaming my mom, lol! Also, people were more laid back about stuff - didn't read nutrition magazines/books. And people didn't travel like they do now; we didn't know what people ate in Asia or how long they lived. I could be wrong about this.
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So, given that we have touched on Kristi Funk's book previously in this thread, this was very interesting:
https://twitter.com/Liz_ORiordan/status/1019139384...
Apparently, the Times (UK) published an article on her and her book which offended a number of UK-based doctors (including Liz O'Riordan who is a doctor and has BC). The link above shows their letter to the Times.
(And another good article I just came across! This time in the Irish Times.)
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Yeah, the hoopla over Kristi Funk's comments is I think a bit overblown but it reminds me a lot of the divisions on this board.
Some people seem to be unable or unwilling to hear that certain lifestyle modifications have an impact both on cancer prevention and on recurrence prevention.I don't think Funk is saying that people caused their cancer which is how these folks seem to be interpreting it.
I follow Liz O'Riordan on twitter and like a lot of what she say but I think this is an over reaction.
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I may be rare, but I'm always thinking about all the factors that may have contributed to my diagnosis, both those over which I had control and those that were out of it. I am not threatened by the likelihood that my choices may have contributed to breast cancer. Many people get very worked up and feel judged.
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Pi-Xi - I agree with you. That's what I have done for more than a year - think back on my diet, health history, stress, etc. to see what played into my cancer. Without analyzing it, I wouldn't know what direction to go in. I also think there is hope in turning some of this around so that I can live longer with a nice quality of life.
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I haven't read Dr. Funk's book so I can't comment on that. Some of you may have seen my "The cancer is not my fault" rant though. Here is the way I see it...
My little five year old nephew has pinworms. Pinworm infestation can be avoided by good handwashing habits. My five year old nephew has some idea about germs and that washing his hands after using the bathroom helps get germs off his hands. But he didn't know that any time he touches his face or eats something without first washing his hands, he can get pinworms. And even if he does his best to keep his hands clean, he can still get pinworms because the microscopic eggs can embed under the nails and remain viable for weeks.
So it can't be my nephews fault he got pinworms because he didn't know enough to prevent them, and when someone gets pinworms who knew about them, it doesn't mean they didn't do everything in their power to prevent them.
If I did something to cause my cancer I would love to know what it was but that information wasn't and will never be available to me, so I can't be held responsible for it, and given my family history it may have been more difficult to prevent it than not.
Maybe some women get breast cancer because they gorge on cheese daily and if they made any other food choice they wouldn't have gotten it but maybe for some women, out of 10 paths in life, 9 lead to breast cancer. Maybe for some, all lead to breast cancer.
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WC3, this is true.
My point is that finding some lifestyle changes that may prove helpful (or not) is empowering for me. Without analyzing my pre-cancer habits and comparing to the research, how can I identify what to try? I can't just throw up my hands and say it happened to me, when I know I didn't sleep enough and I was under constant stress. Perhaps that cheese fest just put it over the top? (Oh, cheese!) Worst case scenario, making all the diet and lifestyle changes improves my quality of life.0 -
WC3 - I get what you're saying. Some people have a family history of cancer and/or it's in their genetic makeup - so maybe the diagnosis is inevitable. So to say one's diet led to cancer when they were genetically predisposed may feel like a slap in the face. But I also see Pi-Xi's point in that if there is something that pushed me (or more likely many things) into a cancer diagnosis, what if I can control some of the lifestyle factors and add time to my life? It gives me hope. Improving my diet, reducing stress, and increasing exercise are things I can control and make me feel better physically and mentally.
LOL about your comment "I've given up oils and everything good and buttery" - I think about all the stuff I am giving up, and I just sigh; so many things I have loved are not good for me. My late uncle was diabetic, diagnosed late in life. He said his diet was "if it tastes good, spit it out".
I haven't read Dr. Funk's book either, and I probably will not unless I can get it from the library. Somebody who was pushing the book on this website a while back said it was advice on how to Prevent bc with a chapter on preventing recurrence. I wouldn't mind reading that chapter.
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GoKale4320:
I am all for prevention and taking steps in an attempt to lower risk and diet and lifestyle changes when necessary and I recognize that there are elements in the western lifestyle that causes an increase in cancer incidents. It's just the people who play the blame game when I was doing everything I knew to do right that I have a problem with. Or the PETA people who chalk my breast cancer up to not being vegan...there is also colon cancer in my family, which vegans have a higher incident of so why would I knowingly put myself at greater risk for that?
Sometimes you try to prevent one thing and get something else while doing it, without ever knowing if you actually prevented the thing you were trying to prevent.
If someone is a health guru and in pristine health, great, but I have a problem with those who think everyone would be in pristine health if they had a similarly healthy life style. I've really stumped a lot of doctors because they are so used to seeing people with unhealthy life styles and possibly associated medical conditions and then I walk in the room with my healthy diet and regular exercise and perfect weight and low blood pressure, then they see my medical record. A friend once asked me why I have so many things wrong with me and the only thing I could say was "Hell if I know" and that was before the cancer. There are only two things I know of that would have reduced my risk no doubt. A prophylactic BMX which I couldn't get, and Tamoxifen to lower my breast density but I was already at risk for endometrial cancer so I could take steps to reduce my risk for endometrial cancer or colon cancer or breast cancer but not all three at the same time, meanwhile not knowing if it would actually do any good or if I would get one of those cancers anyway. It's a clusterf**k.
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I agree WC3, I have done everything I knew to do and apparently I needed to do something that I didn't already know. I do think my excellent health and healthy lifestyle has made treatment easier for me than it is for a lot of people.
I wish I could read the actual article they were criticizing. If Dr. Funk really thinks 90% of breast cancer is preventable, I think she's a quack. I hate to break it to her but I was a healthy exercising vegan and I still got breast cancer.
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I should have said—I haven't read the Funk book yet; my library hasn't received it but I have a hold request. I'm interested to see the difference in interpretations because I was so surprised to see that tweetstorm based on the bits I had skimmed. I don't know what to believe other than nothing is 100%. I can exercise 5 hours a day and eat "perfectly" and this sucker could still come back or I could have ice cream for breakfast and french fries for dinner and live to be 100. I don't spend a lot of time thinking about what I theoretically might have done as that time is passed; now I think about what I can do without making myself miserable in the process.
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hapa:
It may be that a lot of breast cancer is preventable with respect to elements in the western lifestyle but not necessarily elements that the average person can reasonably be held responsible for. It's probably no one single thing but a combination of things and genetics. Mongolians eat a lot of dairy and meat but have low rates of breast cancer. Is it because their dairy has lower estrogen and growth factor levels or something about the way they process it? Is it because they get more exercise, have children younger, live in an environment with less pollution in general or genetics or some combination of those things. Maybe they actually have high rates of breast cancer and it's never reported.
I remember the movie "The Incredible Shrinking Woman" with Lily Thomlin from when I was a kid. She was shrinking due to some combination of the chemicals and compounds found in everyday commercial items but no specific one alone. My 7 year old mind didn't think much about it but my 38 year old mind reads a food label and thinks "Do they really need to high fructose corn syrup and yellow #3 in dill pickles?"
Anyway I'm premenopausal and women my age represent 7% of all breast cancer cases in the U.S. and premenopausal breast cancer is the most common form of breast cancer in non industrial nations (maybe because people just don't live very long though). I found the lump at 36 which was when my grandmother was diagnosed with breast cancer 63 years ago and our environment and lifestyle were worlds apart.
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I can definitely relate to opposing dietary needs to try to avoid various familial cancers! Cheese. Good for colon cancer it seems not so good for breast cancer? Who knows?
I took a bit of a laissez faire approach, my parents lived like saints, both got cancer. I thought I could enjoy some wine and hope for the best. That didn't work out the way I would have liked. Would I have been diagnosed anyway? Probably, but maybe 15 or 20 years later. Or was it the cheese? Or all the X-rays from having been diagnosed with scoliosis at 6 years old and being in treatment for ten years? Or was it the cheese after all? 😂
If I didn't laugh, I would cry.
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