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Topic: VITAMIN K2 combined with Vitamin D3 IMPROVES bone density

Forum: Bone Health and Bone Loss —

Talk with others about bone density, osteopenia and osteoporosis, and ways to keep your bones strong

Posted on: Dec 24, 2015 10:16PM - edited Oct 31, 2019 10:16AM by macb04

macb04 wrote:

Something I never see mentioned, which was never mentioned to me even when I saw an orthopedic specialist after breaking my foot, was that Vitamin K2 deficiency along with Vitamin D3 deficiency increases the risk of fractures.

Just look at the following research about it. Vitamin K2 works SYNERGISTICICALLY with Vitamin D3 to move Calcium out of blood vessels and soft tissue spaces into bones. Without enough Vitamin K2 it is very hard to get the Calcium into your bones. Not only that, but Vitamin K2 is important in lowering risks of Atherosclerosis and Coronary Heart Disease. This should be a major health article, but you don't hear a word about it. Guess it might cut into the pricey, revenue generating big bucks the pharmaceutical industry gets with the Bisphosphonates

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14529146

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/509074_4

http://www.lifeextension.com/magazine/2008/3/Protecting-Bone-And-Arterial-Health-With-Vitamin-K2/Page-01

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00223-012-9571-z

http://smilinsuepubs.com/vitamin-k2-inhibits-deadly-breast-cancer-growth/

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2012/05/16/vitamins-d-and-k2-reduce-osteoporosis.aspx

http://jeffreydachmd.com/2014/10/vitamin-k/

Vitamin K2 is not the same as Vitamin K 1, which is involved in blood clotting. There are a number of studies out of Japan where it is used in combination with Vitamin D3 for prevention and treatment of osteoporosis/osteomalacia. The research is using MK 4 and MK 7 types of Vitamin K2. MK4 is found in animal products like Gouda, Edam and Brie Cheeses. MK 7 is found in Natto, a weird Japanese food made from fermented Soy beans.

No Vitamin K2 supplements unless approved by your doctor if taking Blood Thinners.

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Posts 31 - 60 (206 total)

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Jan 10, 2016 03:01PM Italychick wrote:

I don't take K1. I take 6 mg of boron, and I haven't found a combined supplement. Do you also take fish oil, or eat a lot of oily fish? I take a pharmaceutical grade of fish oil supplement and also vitamin e because I am terrible at getting enough fish in my diet. I always think I will, but I don't. And I also worry about mercury levels in fish too, sigh. If it isn't one thing, it's another.

I take the K2 twice a day.

Below are two boron supplements I have taken. I'm taking the Twin Labs right now, but both are good products. I have both in my cabinet. We got a deal on the Twin Labs, super cheap.



Lumpectomy 1/27/15, TCH chemo, Finished chemo 5/27/15, rest of treatments 2/17/16 Dx IDC
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Jan 10, 2016 04:09PM new2bc wrote:

italychick,

Be careful about vitamin E. I have found 2 articles since my diagnosis that states not to take vitamin E:

http://arstechnica.com/science/2015/10/myths-about...

http://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/suppleme...


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Jan 10, 2016 07:59PM Italychick wrote:

it's the form of vitamin e that can be problematic. There are a lot of different forms, and I stay away from synthetic forms.

Lumpectomy 1/27/15, TCH chemo, Finished chemo 5/27/15, rest of treatments 2/17/16 Dx IDC
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Jan 10, 2016 08:48PM exercise_guru wrote:

I think wheat germ oil has the broadest Vitamin E and is not synthetic.

Age 42 05/15/2015 PALB2 mutation, DBL Breast Cancer Type 1A Grade 3 ER+PR+(right 1.3cm,.5cm) HERr+(left1.6 cm), 06/26/2015 BMX with TE 8/27/15 Chemotherapy TCH 12/30/2015 TAH/BSO/Reconstruction 1/29/16 Arimidex 3/1/16 Femara 5/6/16 Tamoxifen
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Jan 10, 2016 08:49PM marijen wrote:

Italy chick, please how do you know it's synthetic or not?

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Jan 10, 2016 09:13PM macb04 wrote:

Hi Marijen,

Here ishttps://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/VitaminE-HealthProfessional/

I take a Vitamin E that has mixed forms in it. Vitamin E is divided into tocopherols and tocotrienols. There is good data on Tocotrienols and breast cancer, inducing apotosis, irregardless of hormones status. I take a liquid version and make sure I take it with food.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3250526/

http://m.carcin.oxfordjournals.org/content/33/2/233.full

I know people won't necessarily like this Life Extension article, it is old from 2002, but the above articles, but those two are from 2012.

http://www.lifeextension.com/magazine/2002/5/cover_vitamine/page-01

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Jan 10, 2016 09:56PM Italychick wrote:

I think natural forms are d-gamma tocopherol or d-alpha tocopherol, there may be others. If it is a tocopheryl or an acetate form, it is synthetic. There are other names the synthetics use, but I don't know all of them.

Macb04 did a great post.

Lumpectomy 1/27/15, TCH chemo, Finished chemo 5/27/15, rest of treatments 2/17/16 Dx IDC
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Jan 10, 2016 10:58PM - edited Jan 10, 2016 11:56PM by marijen

yes! Thanks macb04. So far I see Vit E is not good for low platelets and radiation, I'll keep studying the rest. And thanks also Italy chick..

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Jan 10, 2016 11:33PM macb04 wrote:

Thanks Italychick and Marijen and everyone, for your comments. Really enjoying these thoughtful discussions.

I am very glad that I was able to start this posting, glad to be getting the info out there to allow all of us women to make informed decisions for ourselves.

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Jan 11, 2016 12:54AM Italychick wrote:

Marijen, just to be clear, I cut out all antioxidants for a week surrounding every chemo infusion, and I still skip themfor my Herceptin infusions. The data is so muddled about antioxidants during treatment that I wasn't willing to take a chance, if that makes sense. So I totally get the no vitamin e during radiation since I skip all antioxidant stuff around infusions.

Lumpectomy 1/27/15, TCH chemo, Finished chemo 5/27/15, rest of treatments 2/17/16 Dx IDC
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Jan 11, 2016 02:23AM marijen wrote:

Italy chick, it's hard to understand how something that's supposed to be good for us - antioxidants - helps the cancer too. I will stop them whether this RO tells me to or not. So far I've received no guidance from my "team" on diet or anything else. They do say to stay away from supplements because they aren't regulated or whatever the word is. My words are going with the estrogen brain drain I'm afraid.

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Jan 19, 2016 01:36PM LovingIsLiving wrote:

This is interesting! I'm going to pick up some Vitamin K2+D3 today. I want to strengthen my bones as much as possible so I can switch to an AI in a year.

"The Lord is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? The Lord is the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?" (Psalms 27:1). The stats below are mine. ♥ My brother lost his fight against breast cancer on Feb 27, 2017 ♥ Dx 10/1/2015, DCIS/IDC, Left, 2cm, Stage IIB, Grade 2, 1/22 nodes, ER+/PR+, HER2- Surgery 11/10/2015 Lymph node removal: Left; Mastectomy: Left Hormonal Therapy 12/28/2015 Tamoxifen pills (Nolvadex, Apo-Tamox, Tamofen, Tamone)
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Feb 23, 2016 12:26PM wallycat wrote:

For anyone that cares to post...

From all I am reading, low blood levels of calcium cause the bones to leach calcium to balance the blood value, so isn't that counterproductive to try to lower your blood calcium levels??

Also, I have been reading that boron may increase estrogen in the body....thoughts?

love reading your posts!

Dx 4/07 1 month before turning 50; ILC 1.8cm, ER+/PR+, HER2 neg., Stage 1, Grade 2, 0/5 nodes. Onco score 20, Bilateral Mast., tamoxifen 3-1/2 years, arimidex-completed 4/20/2012
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Feb 23, 2016 03:43PM macb04 wrote:

Heart disease is the number 1 cause of death in women. A known fixture of heart disease is Atherosclerosis, which is a mixture of fatty plaque deposits combined with Calcifications that adhere to vessel walls, causing narrowing of the size (lumen ) of critical blood vessels of the heart. Cardiologists often, if they are practicing up to date care, do a test to check for Calcifications in Coronary Blood Vessels, resulting in a Calcium Score. Calcifications of these blood vessels are an abnormal finding.

So, if these Calcifications are proven to occur, then there is a very low liklihood of having low serum calcium values, resulting in calcium being leeched from the bones.Vitamin D, in concert with Vitamin K2 keeps the Calcium bone/blood level in balance.

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Feb 23, 2016 04:41PM wallycat wrote:

Macb04,

I am a dietitian (and a medical librarian) so well aware of the heart disease situation. Atherosclerosis starts with inflammation...damage to the arterial walls with constant inflammation. The body tries to repair that with plaque...which can calcify, but it is a lipid in the preliminary stages.

Italychick posted saying she lowered her blood calcium value and I was wondering what the purpose was (what did I miss) and if I missed anything as to why this may be a desired effect.

Calcium scoring looks at the plaque in arteries.....blood calcium values do not correlate to "calcium scoring" for the purposes of atherosclerosis, as far as I can tell. Bones help balance the calcium levels in our blood and if it is low, the bones let go of calcium to bring up the value...homeostasis and all that.

Appreciate your post...just trying to learn and stay on top of things.


Dx 4/07 1 month before turning 50; ILC 1.8cm, ER+/PR+, HER2 neg., Stage 1, Grade 2, 0/5 nodes. Onco score 20, Bilateral Mast., tamoxifen 3-1/2 years, arimidex-completed 4/20/2012
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Feb 23, 2016 08:43PM Italychick wrote:

wallycat, I tried to find something to explain my thought process, but haven't found anything 100% on point. I got tired of trying to get past all the supplement company sites on google looking for good data. So here is my crude attempt to explain what I am doing.

D3 raises calcium levels. Calcium isn't absorbed by the body properly without the right amount of D3. But if my calcium is already on the high side, then D3 supplementation will push me out of range. So I added K2 to get my calcium level into the low side of the normal range so I could then work to get my d level into the correct range.

Hopefully my awkward explanation makes sense.

Lumpectomy 1/27/15, TCH chemo, Finished chemo 5/27/15, rest of treatments 2/17/16 Dx IDC
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Feb 23, 2016 08:55PM ceanna wrote:

My understanding comes from Kate Rheaume-Bleue's book "Vitamin K2 and the Calcium Paradox" (which I learned about in this thread) is that K2 helps the calcium go to the bones instead of circulating in the blood, thus lowering heart and osteoporosis risks. I have had slightly evaluated blood calcium for a number of years. Not enough that it concerns my endocrinologist, but just out of the high end of normal range. I have tried K2, along with the 5000IU of Vit. D3 I take daily and have had a slight decrease in blood calcium levels as of last blood tests. Unfortunately, the K2 seems to set off a fast heartbeat and palpitations in me, so I've stopped taking it for the time being. I need to study that more before resuming K2.

Dx 2014, IDC, 0/4 nodes, ER+/PR+, HER2- Radiation Therapy Multi-catheter Surgery Lumpectomy: Right
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Feb 24, 2016 01:59PM wallycat wrote:

Thanks ladies!

Dx 4/07 1 month before turning 50; ILC 1.8cm, ER+/PR+, HER2 neg., Stage 1, Grade 2, 0/5 nodes. Onco score 20, Bilateral Mast., tamoxifen 3-1/2 years, arimidex-completed 4/20/2012
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Feb 25, 2016 06:51PM gentianviolet wrote:

Ceanna - I, too, had side effects from K2. However feeling it was important I started taking low dose K2 and have not had a problem with it at all. It contains 45 mcg as menaquinone-7 in a softgel. I have taken 1 a day for years and have never had a problem with that dose.

Barbara Dx 8/13/2009, IDC: Cribriform, Right, 2cm, Stage IIA, Grade 1, 1/14 nodes, ER+/PR+, HER2- (FISH) Surgery 9/1/2009 Lumpectomy: Right; Lymph node removal: Right, Sentinel, Underarm/Axillary Radiation Therapy 10/15/2009 Whole-breast: Breast Hormonal Therapy 1/1/2010 Arimidex (anastrozole), Tamoxifen pills (Nolvadex, Apo-Tamox, Tamofen, Tamone)
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Feb 28, 2016 01:30PM corky60 wrote:

K2 also causes problems for me. I have varicose veins and wear support hosiery. When I took K2 it thickened my blood. My legs actually hurt. I pricked my finger on a thorn and I stopped bleeding with the first drop. I think K2 made it difficult for my leg veins to move the blood back up.

And it's not just K2 that's the problem. So is boron and strontium. I have osteopenia and with my family history I will get osteoporosis.

These side effects are uncommon but others do get them so FYI.

Dx 3/25/2013, IDC, Right, <1cm, Stage IA, Grade 1, 0/1 nodes, ER+/PR+, HER2- Surgery 4/25/2013 Lumpectomy: Right; Lymph node removal: Right Radiation Therapy 5/28/2013 Breast
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Feb 29, 2016 02:43PM - edited Feb 29, 2016 02:45PM by LovingIsLiving

Thanks for bringing that up Corky60. With me being on tamoxifen I wonder if it's ok for me to take Vitamin k2. From what I read I thought it interacts with blood thinners and that supplementing vitamin k2 should not cause blood clots. I will ask my MO when I see her in 3 weeks and ask about testing my INR (blood clotting test). For now I'm going to take it every other day or every 3 days.

"The Lord is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? The Lord is the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?" (Psalms 27:1). The stats below are mine. ♥ My brother lost his fight against breast cancer on Feb 27, 2017 ♥ Dx 10/1/2015, DCIS/IDC, Left, 2cm, Stage IIB, Grade 2, 1/22 nodes, ER+/PR+, HER2- Surgery 11/10/2015 Lymph node removal: Left; Mastectomy: Left Hormonal Therapy 12/28/2015 Tamoxifen pills (Nolvadex, Apo-Tamox, Tamofen, Tamone)
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Feb 29, 2016 04:43PM zogo wrote:

Vitamin K interacts with blood thinners. Vitamin K2 is a completely different thing. Checking with your doctor is always a good idea.

Although, the dose of K2 for those on coumadin is lower than for others. It is addressed in the book "Vitamin K2 and the Calcium Paradox" that I mentioned earlier in the thread.


~Jane~ "Most obstacles melt away when we make up our minds to walk boldly through them" ......"You'll never know how strong you are until being strong is your only option"
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Mar 1, 2016 12:47PM LovingIsLiving wrote:

In the meantime I'm going to take a baby aspirin (primary said it was okay) to counteract any clotting issues. Thanks for all the info.

"The Lord is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? The Lord is the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?" (Psalms 27:1). The stats below are mine. ♥ My brother lost his fight against breast cancer on Feb 27, 2017 ♥ Dx 10/1/2015, DCIS/IDC, Left, 2cm, Stage IIB, Grade 2, 1/22 nodes, ER+/PR+, HER2- Surgery 11/10/2015 Lymph node removal: Left; Mastectomy: Left Hormonal Therapy 12/28/2015 Tamoxifen pills (Nolvadex, Apo-Tamox, Tamofen, Tamone)
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Mar 17, 2016 02:41PM - edited Mar 18, 2016 12:59PM by grandma3X

Here's a good review article on the vitamin K2-calcium interactions and how they affect bone and cardiovascular health:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26770129

The interaction with Vit. D is more convoluted - from what I understand (I'm a biochemist but not a medical doctor) Vitamin D increases circulating blood calcium levels, while Vit. K2 is a cofactor for an enzyme that activates other enzymes involved in binding of osteocalcin, produced by osteoblasts, to the bone matrix. So K2 is essential to moving that increased calcium from blood into building bone mass.

I looked for information on foods with Vit. K2 and found this website, which has lists of foods, how much K2 is in them, and includes references:

https://honey-guide.com/2014/03/10/menaquinones-k2...


Oncotype score 10. Married 35 years, 2 kids, 3 grands. Marine biologist/biochemist. No BC in my family tree. First diagnosed with multi focal ILC with 2 small tumors seen on MRI. Final pathology showed 1 large tumor measuring 5 cm! Dx 1/13/2016, ILC, Left, 5cm, Stage IIA, Grade 2, 0/1 nodes, ER+/PR+, HER2- Surgery 1/13/2016 Lymph node removal: Sentinel; Mastectomy: Left; Reconstruction (left): Tissue expander placement Surgery 5/18/2016 Prophylactic mastectomy: Right; Reconstruction (right): Tissue expander placement Surgery 10/26/2016 Reconstruction (left): Silicone implant; Reconstruction (right): Silicone implant Surgery 10/11/2017 Prophylactic ovary removal Surgery 10/11/2017 Reconstruction (left): Fat grafting; Reconstruction (right): Fat grafting Hormonal Therapy Femara (letrozole)
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Mar 20, 2016 01:33PM marijen wrote:

I need more K2 can anyone recommend a good brand? I'm using Vitacost. Just wonder if there's something better

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Mar 20, 2016 04:24PM zogo wrote:

I use Jarrow K2-MK7, 90mcg, once daily



~Jane~ "Most obstacles melt away when we make up our minds to walk boldly through them" ......"You'll never know how strong you are until being strong is your only option"
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Mar 20, 2016 05:34PM macb04 wrote:

I don't like Jarrow that much because it has stearic acid or Magnesium stearate in a lot of its supplements. i

I take Vit D 3/K2 Mulson by Pharmax

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Mar 20, 2016 05:43PM ChiSandy wrote:

Because my DEXAscan showed osteopenia even before I started letrozole, I take 1200 mg. calcium (citrate, since I can’t absorb carbonate due to the PPI I need to take for severe GERD), 500 mg. Mg., 5000 IU D3 and recently added 100 mcg of K2 (Whole Foods brand). If your diastolic BP has gone up, check the inactive ingredients list--perhaps your K2 has sodium in one of its binders?

I take an 81 mg aspirin daily for cardioprevention. But my husband (a cardiologist) assures me that K2 doesn’t cancel out that protection--the concern is with the interaction between K (not K2) and anticoagulants such as warfarin or antiplatelet therapy drugs like Plavix or Pradaxa.

Diagnosed at 64 on routine annual mammo, no lump. OncotypeDX 16. I cried because I had no shoes...but then again, I won’t get blisters.... Dx 9/9/2015, IDC, Right, 1cm, Stage IA, Grade 2, 0/4 nodes, ER+/PR+, HER2- (IHC) Surgery 9/23/2015 Lumpectomy: Right Radiation Therapy 11/2/2015 3DCRT: Breast Hormonal Therapy 12/31/2015 Femara (letrozole)
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Mar 20, 2016 06:07PM zogo wrote:

macb, you are absolutely right about staying away from the stearates!

The Jarrow K2 does not have them, but thanks for the heads up. I will keep an eye out for that in the future.

I also take the D3-K2 Mulsion. Either from Genestra or Pharmax.

~Jane~ "Most obstacles melt away when we make up our minds to walk boldly through them" ......"You'll never know how strong you are until being strong is your only option"
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Mar 20, 2016 08:15PM marijen wrote:

Hi macb04. Where do you buy it

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