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Topic: VITAMIN K2 combined with Vitamin D3 IMPROVES bone density

Forum: Bone Health and Bone Loss — Talk with others about bone density, osteopenia and osteoporosis, and ways to keep your bones strong

Posted on: Dec 24, 2015 10:16PM - edited Dec 24, 2015 10:35PM by macb04

macb04 wrote:

Something I never see mentioned, which was never mentioned to me even when I saw an orthopedic specialist after breaking my foot, was that Vitamin K2 deficiency along with Vitamin D3 deficiency increases the risk of fractures.

Just look at the following research about it. Vitamin K2 works SYNERGISTICICALLY with Vitamin D3 to move Calcium out of blood vessels and soft tissue spaces into bones. Without enough Vitamin K2 it is very hard to get the Calcium into your bones. Not only that, but Vitamin K2 is important in lowering risks of Atherosclerosis and Coronary Heart Disease. This should be a major health article, but you don't hear a word about it. Guess it might cut into the pricey, revenue generating big bucks the pharmaceutical industry gets with the Bisphosphonates

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14529146

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/509074_4

http://www.lifeextension.com/magazine/2008/3/Protecting-Bone-And-Arterial-Health-With-Vitamin-K2/Page-01

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00223-012-9571-z

http://smilinsuepubs.com/vitamin-k2-inhibits-deadly-breast-cancer-growth/

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2012/05/16/vitamins-d-and-k2-reduce-osteoporosis.aspx

http://jeffreydachmd.com/2014/10/vitamin-k/

Vitamin K2 is not the same as Vitamin K 1, which is involved in blood clotting. There are a number of studies out of Japan where it is used in combination with Vitamin D3 for prevention and treatment of osteoporosis/osteomalacia. The research is using MK 4 and MK 7 types of Vitamin K2. MK4 is found in animal products like Gouda, Edam and Brie Cheeses. MK 7 is found in Natto, a weird Japanese food made from fermented Soy beans.

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Dec 25, 2018 08:14PM - edited Dec 25, 2018 08:16PM by windingshores

macb04, I don't understand your answer. Many of us have cancers that are fed by estrogen. 

Dx 2/2015, DCIS/ILC/IDC, Right, 1cm, Stage IA, Grade 3, 0/3 nodes, ER+/PR+, HER2- (FISH) Surgery Lymph node removal; Mastectomy: Right Surgery Mastectomy: Left; Prophylactic mastectomy: Left Hormonal Therapy
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Dec 26, 2018 02:05PM macb04 wrote:

Hi windingshores.

What I mean is that the hormone Estrogen is part of the natural state of women's maturation and health. All women, everywhere have gone through the enormous upswing in Estrogen levels that are characteristic of Puberty. It is the normal plan of Nature for us to have periods in life of large amounts of Estrogen.

If it were inately harmful to have such high levels of Estrogen, logically, we, and many more women would have accumulated a great deal of Hormone Driven Breast Cancers by our early 20's. This however is not the case.

The function of Estrogen is to cause growth, whether it is Puberty, with Breast and Uterine Growth cyclically controlling Endometrial growth and shedding as part of menstruation, sucessful pregnancy, or unfortunately overgrowth of breast, ovarian and uterine cell leading to cancer.

Estrogen is always counterbalanced by Progesterone. Healthy, and balanced menstrual cycles are always maintained by the constant cycling of Estrogen and Progesterone ( through the corpus luteum, mostly). The job of Estrogen is to cause maturation and growth of breast and endometrial cells, while Progesterone's job is to stop the growth, slow it down, in effect to regulate unchecked growth.

It has been noted that women with breast cancer often had Estrogen Dominance, that they had higher than normal Estrogen to Progesterone Ratios at the time of diagnosis. There is a huge volume of information on Estrogen Dominance, suggesting environmental poisons such as exposure to XenoEstrogens, as well as pervasive use of birth control, being overweight, ect,. Worldwide the numbers of cases of cancers are on an alarming rise, when I was young, it was 1 in 20 got breast cancer. Now it is 1 in 8. Have we as a species changed? Or has our environment changed?

Years ago, the bc industry realized that artificial Progestins like Provera have Estrogen-like effects, which is why HRT was linked so highly to increased reproductive cancers. If you look at the informational flyers with Provera, and other artificial Progestins, this increased cancer risk is stated quite clearly.

However, Bioidentical Progesterone, the kind that is identical to what our Corpus Luteum produced every month by our ovary, which caused the shedding of our uterine lining, is extremely safe. Bioidentical Progesterone is more than just safe. In actuality, it is crucial to counterbalancing our Estrogen levels.

In the past, before SERMs like Tamoxifen and AIs were created, high dose Progesterone was actually given as a treatment of breast cancer. In fact, Progesterone is actually being given as treatment with tamoxifen in research studies being done right now. The bc industry is rediscovering the natural role of Progesterone ( not artificial Progestins) in preventing overgrowth of breast, uterine and ovarian cells.

An analogy that I like would be how medicine has focused on use of antibiotics to treat infections. Clearly this is an unsuccessful long term strategy for humanity, as evidenced by the increasing rise in Antibiotic Resistance. Pasteur, on his deathbed, is known to have said he was wrong to focus on bacteria as the cause of illness, but instead it was a weakness in terrain of the body, that cause illness and infections.

So, the focus, and demonization of Estrogen as the sole driver in bc and other reproductive cancers completely misses the point. As Pasteur said, it is weakness in the terrain that drives illness. To paraphrase imbalances in our bodies hormone and immune function are likely the smoking guns in this modern plague of reproductive and other cancers.

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Jan 2, 2019 12:52AM macb04 wrote:

I have unintentionally discussed Progesterone on my Vitamin K2 thread, but still really good information. Something we should all know.

Happy New Year to you All.

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May 29, 2019 02:16PM macb04 wrote:

I am still taking my Vitamin K2 daily, any one else?

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May 29, 2019 09:16PM zogo wrote:

Yep, still taking D3 and K2-MK7

~Jane~ "Most obstacles melt away when we make up our minds to walk boldly through them" ......"You'll never know how strong you are until being strong is your only option"
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May 29, 2019 10:45PM Trishyla wrote:

Me, too, thanks to this forum. Was taking 50,000 IU of vitamin D2 with zero change in my levels. Read about K2/D3 combo (I think on this thread). That, along with more exposure to sunlight without sunscreen, brought me up from under 10 to over 35. Still want to get in the 60's.

I do think it helps keep the cancer from coming back. At least I hope it does.😁😁

Trish

Dx 8/30/2016, IDC, Left, 1cm, Stage IIA, Grade 2, 1/2 nodes, ER+/PR+, HER2- Dx 8/30/2016, IDC, Right, 1cm, Stage IA, Grade 3, 0/1 nodes, ER-/PR-, HER2- Dx 9/6/2016, IDC, Left, 1cm, Stage IIA, Grade 2, 1/2 nodes, ER+/PR+, HER2- Chemotherapy 9/28/2016 AC + T (Taxol) Surgery 4/4/2017 Lymph node removal: Sentinel; Mastectomy: Left, Right; Reconstruction (left): DIEP flap; Reconstruction (right): DIEP flap Chemotherapy 8/4/2017 Xeloda (capecitabine)
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May 29, 2019 10:50PM zogo wrote:

Trish, so glad you switched from D2 to D3! A much better choice.

I was taking 10,000 iu winter and 5,000 iu summer. Had my levels tested and they dropped from the 70s to the 50s. I went back on 10,000 iu year round.

Also, I changed to a D3 that is made with extra virgin olive oil. My old one was made with a bad oil.

~Jane~ "Most obstacles melt away when we make up our minds to walk boldly through them" ......"You'll never know how strong you are until being strong is your only option"
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May 30, 2019 10:44AM smo23915 wrote:

Zogo,

What brand of vitamin D do you take?

Thank you, Sharon

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May 30, 2019 12:48PM ceanna wrote:

I take Trader Joe's Vit D3 in 5000 IU capsule. It's in flaxseed oil and that seems to have finally raised my D levels to the 50s and 60s after years of taking Vit. D in soybean oil capsule and having only a little improvement. Don't know if the oil type made the difference but I'm sticking with a flaxseed oil brand.

Dx 2014, IDC, 0/4 nodes, ER+/PR+, HER2- Radiation Therapy Multi-catheter Surgery Lumpectomy: Right
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May 30, 2019 02:04PM zogo wrote:

Be careful with flaxseed oil. It may be good, but it can also be estrogenic and not always the best for each person.

Here is the brand I use. Healthy Origins Vitamin D3

~Jane~ "Most obstacles melt away when we make up our minds to walk boldly through them" ......"You'll never know how strong you are until being strong is your only option"
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May 30, 2019 05:40PM smo23915 wrote:

Thank you zogo! Sharon

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May 30, 2019 11:55PM macb04 wrote:

Flax seed is estrogenic, because it is a natural phytoestrogen. It is not considered harmful by most experts.

This also a cool Flax seed study before Mx, showing it reduced the ki-67 markers.

Dietary flaxseed alters tumor biological markers in postmenopausal breast cancer.

Thompson LU1, Chen JM, Li T, Strasser-Weippl K, Goss PE.

Author information Abstract PURPOSE:

Flaxseed, the richest source of mammalian lignan precursors, has previously been shown to reduce the growth of tumors in rats. This study examined, in a randomized double-blind placebo-controlled clinical trial, the effects of dietary flaxseed on tumor biological markers and urinary lignan excretion in postmenopausal patients with newly diagnosed breast cancer.

EXPERIMENTAL DESIGN:

Patients were randomized to daily intake of either a 25 g flaxseed-containing muffin (n = 19) or a control (placebo) muffin (n = 13). At the time of diagnosis and again at definitive surgery, tumor tissue was analyzed for the rate of tumor cell proliferation (Ki-67 labeling index, primary end point), apoptosis, c-erbB2 expression, and estrogen and progesterone receptor levels. Twenty-four-hour urine samples were analyzed for lignans, and 3-day diet records were evaluated for macronutrient and caloric intake. Mean treatment times were 39 and 32 days in the placebo and flaxseed groups, respectively.

RESULTS:

Reductions in Ki-67 labeling index (34.2%; P = 0.001) and in c-erbB2 expression (71.0%; P = 0.003) and an increase in apoptosis (30.7%; P = 0.007) were observed in the flaxseed, but not in the placebo group. No significant differences in caloric and macronutrient intake were seen between groups and between pre- and posttreatment periods. A significant increase in mean urinary lignan excretion was observed in the flaxseed group (1,300%; P < 0.01) compared with placebo controls. The total intake of flaxseed was correlated with changes in c-erbB2 score (r = -0.373; P = 0.036) and apoptotic index (r = 0.495; P < 0.004).

CONCLUSION:

Dietary flaxseed has the potential to reduce tumor growth in patients with breast cancer.




Flaxseeds and Breast Cancer Question

Should patients with Estrogen Receptor Positive (ER+) breast cancer avoid flaxseed due to the potential "phytoestrogenic" role of lignans?

Answer

To understand potential effects of flaxseed and how they may affect breast cancer, it helps to understand what flaxseeds are, and why some consider them a concern for women with a history of breast cancer.

Flaxseed and phytoestrogens

Flaxseed is the richest dietary source of lignans, a type of phytoestrogen. A phytoestrogen is a plant nutrient that is somewhat similar to the female hormone estrogen. Due to this similarity, lignans may have estrogenic and/or anti-estrogenic effects in the body. Lignans are the nutrients that are at the center of the controversy regarding whether it is safe for women with breast cancer to eat flaxseeds.

Phytoestrogens are found in a variety of foods, including soy, flaxseeds, other nuts and seeds, whole grains, and some vegetables and fruit. Most of the research regarding flaxseed and breast cancer focuses on the lignans found in flaxseeds, and their potential for weak estrogenic or anti-estrogenic effects in a woman's body.

Phytoestrogens and breast cancer growth

Phytoestrogens are somewhat similar to human estrogen, and some health experts have speculated that phytoestrogens might even act like human estrogen in the body. This suggestion has raised concerns about whether phytoestrogens may not be safe for people with a history of hormone-linked cancers, such as prostate cancer, endometrial cancer, or ER positive breast cancer.

Lignans, which are the type of phytoestrogens in flaxseed, can change estrogen metabolism. In postmenopausal women, lignans can cause the body to produce less active forms of estrogen. This is believed to potentially reduce breast cancer risk. There is evidence that adding ground flaxseeds into the diet decreases cell growth in breast tissue as well. Again, this would be the type of change that would be expected to decrease breast cancer risk.

All cells have the ability to go through a process called apoptosis, or programmed cell death. It is believed that through this process, the body can prevent damaged cells from reproducing, and eventually developing into cancer. Researchers have shown that flaxseed sprouts can increase apoptosis (programmed cell death). Some cell and animal studies have shown that two specific phytoestrogens found in lignans, named enterolactone and enterodiol, may help suppress breast tumor growth.

Animal studies have shown that both flaxseed oil and lignans can reduce breast tumor growth and spread, even for ER- cancer cells. This result suggests that flaxseeds may have anti-cancer benefits that are unrelated to any type of effect on estrogen or estrogen metabolism.

Phytoestrogens and breast cancer treatment

Tamoxifen is a medication known as a selective estrogen receptor modulator, or SERM. Tamoxifen often is prescribed as part of the treatment for ER+ breast cancer. Tamoxifen binds with estrogen receptors, without activating growth in breast cancer cells. In this way, tamoxifen prevents a women's own estrogen from binding with these cells. As a result, breast cancer cell growth is blocked

One study in mice concluded that flaxseed inhibited the growth of human estrogen-dependent breast cancer, and strengthened the tumor-inhibitory effect of tamoxifen. Multiple other studies with mice have shown that dietary flaxseed works with tamoxifen to inhibit breast tumor growth.

Researchers don't yet know if these results will apply to women with breast cancer, but this approach—adding flaxseeds to the diet—looks promising. And several studies in women have shown that higher intake of lignans, the key phytoestrogen in flaxseeds, is associated with reduced risk of breast cancer.

Further, lignans in the diet are associated with less aggressive tumor characteristics in women who have been diagnosed with breast cancer. In other words, women who have already been eating lignans at the time of diagnosis seem to have tumors that are less aggressive.

If you plan to add flaxseeds into your nutrition plan, please talk to your doctor or dietitian first, to make sure this is a good choice for you.

Bottom line

While research has shown some benefits with regards to ER+ breast cancer cell death and prevention of metastases within mice and cellular models, it is recommended that human intake should be through diet only, not supplementation. Only moderate amounts of ground flaxseeds, up to two to three tablespoons per day at most, should be eaten.

Always consult your health care team prior to making any changes to your diet or the dietary supplements you are using.

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Jun 2, 2019 11:42PM macb04 wrote:

I just saw this study about Vitamin K2 and Breast Cancer.


Real-time cell analysis of the inhibitory effect of vitamin K2 on adhesion and proliferation of breast cancer cells.

(PMID:26082424)

Kiely M 1 ,

Hodgins SJ 2 ,

Merrigan BA 3 ,

Tormey S 4 ,

Kiely PA 1 ,

O'Connor EM 5

Affiliations

Nutrition Research (New York, N.Y.) [30 May 2015, 35(8):736-743]

Type: Research Support, Non-U.S. Gov't, Journal Article
DOI: 10.1016/j.nutres.2015.05.014 The Digital Object Identifier (DOI) System enables identification of digital entities

Abstract

Breast cancer is the most prevalent cancer type worldwide. Continued efforts to improve treatment strategies for patients with breast cancer will be instrumental in reducing the death rates associated with this disease. In particular, the triple-negative breast cancer subtype of breast cancer has no targeted therapy available so it is essential to continue to work on any potential therapies. Vitamin K (VK) is known for its essential role in the clotting cascade. The antitumor properties of VK derivatives have been reported in both hepatocellular carcinoma and glioblastoma. Our hypothesis was that menaquinone-4, the most common form of vitamin K2 (VK2), is an effective anticancer agent againstbreast cancer cell types. In this study, we used a novel impedance-based live cell monitoring platform (xCELLigence) to determine the effects of VK derivatives on the triple-negative breast cancer cell line, MDA-MB-231, and the HER2+ breast cancer cell line, MDA-MB-453. Cells were treated with varying concentrations of menaquinone-4 (VK2) previously reported to have an antiproliferative effect on human glioblastoma cells. After initial testing, these concentrations were adjusted to 100, 125, and 150 μmol/L. A significant dose-dependent, growth inhibitory effect was found when cells were treated at these concentrations. These effects were seen in both adhesion and proliferation phases and show a dramatic reduction in cell growth. Additional analysis of MDA-MB-231 cells treated with VK2 (100 μmol/L) in combination with a low-glucose nutrient media showed a further decrease in adhesion and viability. This is the first study of its kind showing the real-time effects of VK derivatives on breast cancer cells and suggests that dietary factors may be an important consideration for patients.

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Jun 10, 2019 11:53PM macb04 wrote:

Crickets.........

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Jun 11, 2019 02:36AM Trishyla wrote:

I may not always comment, Macb04, but I do appreciate the info you bring to this thread. It gives me a good starting point for my own research and interaction with my oncologist.

Please keep up the good work. Thanks.

Trish

Dx 8/30/2016, IDC, Left, 1cm, Stage IIA, Grade 2, 1/2 nodes, ER+/PR+, HER2- Dx 8/30/2016, IDC, Right, 1cm, Stage IA, Grade 3, 0/1 nodes, ER-/PR-, HER2- Dx 9/6/2016, IDC, Left, 1cm, Stage IIA, Grade 2, 1/2 nodes, ER+/PR+, HER2- Chemotherapy 9/28/2016 AC + T (Taxol) Surgery 4/4/2017 Lymph node removal: Sentinel; Mastectomy: Left, Right; Reconstruction (left): DIEP flap; Reconstruction (right): DIEP flap Chemotherapy 8/4/2017 Xeloda (capecitabine)
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Jun 11, 2019 11:17AM macb04 wrote:

Thanks so much Trish. Means alot to hear that the info I put out here is helpful.

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