Dec 25, 2018 07:14PM - edited Dec 25, 2018 07:16PM by windingshores
macb04, I don't understand your answer. Many of us have cancers that are fed by estrogen.
Talk with others about bone density, osteopenia and osteoporosis, and ways to keep your bones strong
Posted on: Dec 24, 2015 09:16PM - edited Oct 31, 2019 09:16AM by macb04
Something I never see mentioned, which was never mentioned to me even when I saw an orthopedic specialist after breaking my foot, was that Vitamin K2 deficiency along with Vitamin D3 deficiency increases the risk of fractures.
Just look at the following research about it. Vitamin K2 works SYNERGISTICICALLY with Vitamin D3 to move Calcium out of blood vessels and soft tissue spaces into bones. Without enough Vitamin K2 it is very hard to get the Calcium into your bones. Not only that, but Vitamin K2 is important in lowering risks of Atherosclerosis and Coronary Heart Disease. This should be a major health article, but you don't hear a word about it. Guess it might cut into the pricey, revenue generating big bucks the pharmaceutical industry gets with the Bisphosphonates
Vitamin K2 is not the same as Vitamin K 1, which is involved in blood clotting. There are a number of studies out of Japan where it is used in combination with Vitamin D3 for prevention and treatment of osteoporosis/osteomalacia. The research is using MK 4 and MK 7 types of Vitamin K2. MK4 is found in animal products like Gouda, Edam and Brie Cheeses. MK 7 is found in Natto, a weird Japanese food made from fermented Soy beans.
No Vitamin K2 supplements unless approved by your doctor if taking Blood Thinners.Log in to post a reply
Posts 151 - 180 (206 total)
Dec 25, 2018 07:14PM - edited Dec 25, 2018 07:16PM by windingshores
macb04, I don't understand your answer. Many of us have cancers that are fed by estrogen.
Dec 26, 2018 01:05PM macb04 wrote:
What I mean is that the hormone Estrogen is part of the natural state of women's maturation and health. All women, everywhere have gone through the enormous upswing in Estrogen levels that are characteristic of Puberty. It is the normal plan of Nature for us to have periods in life of large amounts of Estrogen.
If it were inately harmful to have such high levels of Estrogen, logically, we, and many more women would have accumulated a great deal of Hormone Driven Breast Cancers by our early 20's. This however is not the case.
The function of Estrogen is to cause growth, whether it is Puberty, with Breast and Uterine Growth cyclically controlling Endometrial growth and shedding as part of menstruation, sucessful pregnancy, or unfortunately overgrowth of breast, ovarian and uterine cell leading to cancer.
Estrogen is always counterbalanced by Progesterone. Healthy, and balanced menstrual cycles are always maintained by the constant cycling of Estrogen and Progesterone ( through the corpus luteum, mostly). The job of Estrogen is to cause maturation and growth of breast and endometrial cells, while Progesterone's job is to stop the growth, slow it down, in effect to regulate unchecked growth.
It has been noted that women with breast cancer often had Estrogen Dominance, that they had higher than normal Estrogen to Progesterone Ratios at the time of diagnosis. There is a huge volume of information on Estrogen Dominance, suggesting environmental poisons such as exposure to XenoEstrogens, as well as pervasive use of birth control, being overweight, ect,. Worldwide the numbers of cases of cancers are on an alarming rise, when I was young, it was 1 in 20 got breast cancer. Now it is 1 in 8. Have we as a species changed? Or has our environment changed?
Years ago, the bc industry realized that artificial Progestins like Provera have Estrogen-like effects, which is why HRT was linked so highly to increased reproductive cancers. If you look at the informational flyers with Provera, and other artificial Progestins, this increased cancer risk is stated quite clearly.
However, Bioidentical Progesterone, the kind that is identical to what our Corpus Luteum produced every month by our ovary, which caused the shedding of our uterine lining, is extremely safe. Bioidentical Progesterone is more than just safe. In actuality, it is crucial to counterbalancing our Estrogen levels.
In the past, before SERMs like Tamoxifen and AIs were created, high dose Progesterone was actually given as a treatment of breast cancer. In fact, Progesterone is actually being given as treatment with tamoxifen in research studies being done right now. The bc industry is rediscovering the natural role of Progesterone ( not artificial Progestins) in preventing overgrowth of breast, uterine and ovarian cells.
An analogy that I like would be how medicine has focused on use of antibiotics to treat infections. Clearly this is an unsuccessful long term strategy for humanity, as evidenced by the increasing rise in Antibiotic Resistance. Pasteur, on his deathbed, is known to have said he was wrong to focus on bacteria as the cause of illness, but instead it was a weakness in terrain of the body, that cause illness and infections.
So, the focus, and demonization of Estrogen as the sole driver in bc and other reproductive cancers completely misses the point. As Pasteur said, it is weakness in the terrain that drives illness. To paraphrase imbalances in our bodies hormone and immune function are likely the smoking guns in this modern plague of reproductive and other cancers.
May 29, 2019 09:45PM Trishyla wrote:
Me, too, thanks to this forum. Was taking 50,000 IU of vitamin D2 with zero change in my levels. Read about K2/D3 combo (I think on this thread). That, along with more exposure to sunlight without sunscreen, brought me up from under 10 to over 35. Still want to get in the 60's.
I do think it helps keep the cancer from coming back. At least I hope it does.😁😁
May 29, 2019 09:50PM zogo wrote:
Trish, so glad you switched from D2 to D3! A much better choice.
I was taking 10,000 iu winter and 5,000 iu summer. Had my levels tested and they dropped from the 70s to the 50s. I went back on 10,000 iu year round.
Also, I changed to a D3 that is made with extra virgin olive oil. My old one was made with a bad oil.
May 30, 2019 11:48AM ceanna wrote:
I take Trader Joe's Vit D3 in 5000 IU capsule. It's in flaxseed oil and that seems to have finally raised my D levels to the 50s and 60s after years of taking Vit. D in soybean oil capsule and having only a little improvement. Don't know if the oil type made the difference but I'm sticking with a flaxseed oil brand.
May 30, 2019 01:04PM zogo wrote:
Be careful with flaxseed oil. It may be good, but it can also be estrogenic and not always the best for each person.
Here is the brand I use. Healthy Origins Vitamin D3
May 30, 2019 10:55PM macb04 wrote:
Flax seed is estrogenic, because it is a natural phytoestrogen. It is not considered harmful by most experts.
This also a cool Flax seed study before Mx, showing it reduced the ki-67 markers.Dietary flaxseed alters tumor biological markers in postmenopausal breast cancer. Author information Abstract PURPOSE:
Flaxseed, the richest source of mammalian lignan precursors, has previously been shown to reduce the growth of tumors in rats. This study examined, in a randomized double-blind placebo-controlled clinical trial, the effects of dietary flaxseed on tumor biological markers and urinary lignan excretion in postmenopausal patients with newly diagnosed breast cancer.EXPERIMENTAL DESIGN:
Patients were randomized to daily intake of either a 25 g flaxseed-containing muffin (n = 19) or a control (placebo) muffin (n = 13). At the time of diagnosis and again at definitive surgery, tumor tissue was analyzed for the rate of tumor cell proliferation (Ki-67 labeling index, primary end point), apoptosis, c-erbB2 expression, and estrogen and progesterone receptor levels. Twenty-four-hour urine samples were analyzed for lignans, and 3-day diet records were evaluated for macronutrient and caloric intake. Mean treatment times were 39 and 32 days in the placebo and flaxseed groups, respectively.RESULTS:
Reductions in Ki-67 labeling index (34.2%; P = 0.001) and in c-erbB2 expression (71.0%; P = 0.003) and an increase in apoptosis (30.7%; P = 0.007) were observed in the flaxseed, but not in the placebo group. No significant differences in caloric and macronutrient intake were seen between groups and between pre- and posttreatment periods. A significant increase in mean urinary lignan excretion was observed in the flaxseed group (1,300%; P < 0.01) compared with placebo controls. The total intake of flaxseed was correlated with changes in c-erbB2 score (r = -0.373; P = 0.036) and apoptotic index (r = 0.495; P < 0.004).CONCLUSION:
Dietary flaxseed has the potential to reduce tumor growth in patients with breast cancer.
Flaxseeds and Breast Cancer Question
Should patients with Estrogen Receptor Positive (ER+) breast cancer avoid flaxseed due to the potential "phytoestrogenic" role of lignans?Answer
To understand potential effects of flaxseed and how they may affect breast cancer, it helps to understand what flaxseeds are, and why some consider them a concern for women with a history of breast cancer.
Flaxseed and phytoestrogens
Flaxseed is the richest dietary source of lignans, a type of phytoestrogen. A phytoestrogen is a plant nutrient that is somewhat similar to the female hormone estrogen. Due to this similarity, lignans may have estrogenic and/or anti-estrogenic effects in the body. Lignans are the nutrients that are at the center of the controversy regarding whether it is safe for women with breast cancer to eat flaxseeds.
Phytoestrogens are found in a variety of foods, including soy, flaxseeds, other nuts and seeds, whole grains, and some vegetables and fruit. Most of the research regarding flaxseed and breast cancer focuses on the lignans found in flaxseeds, and their potential for weak estrogenic or anti-estrogenic effects in a woman's body.
Phytoestrogens and breast cancer growth
Phytoestrogens are somewhat similar to human estrogen, and some health experts have speculated that phytoestrogens might even act like human estrogen in the body. This suggestion has raised concerns about whether phytoestrogens may not be safe for people with a history of hormone-linked cancers, such as prostate cancer, endometrial cancer, or ER positive breast cancer.
Lignans, which are the type of phytoestrogens in flaxseed, can change estrogen metabolism. In postmenopausal women, lignans can cause the body to produce less active forms of estrogen. This is believed to potentially reduce breast cancer risk. There is evidence that adding ground flaxseeds into the diet decreases cell growth in breast tissue as well. Again, this would be the type of change that would be expected to decrease breast cancer risk.
All cells have the ability to go through a process called apoptosis, or programmed cell death. It is believed that through this process, the body can prevent damaged cells from reproducing, and eventually developing into cancer. Researchers have shown that flaxseed sprouts can increase apoptosis (programmed cell death). Some cell and animal studies have shown that two specific phytoestrogens found in lignans, named enterolactone and enterodiol, may help suppress breast tumor growth.
Animal studies have shown that both flaxseed oil and lignans can reduce breast tumor growth and spread, even for ER- cancer cells. This result suggests that flaxseeds may have anti-cancer benefits that are unrelated to any type of effect on estrogen or estrogen metabolism.
Phytoestrogens and breast cancer treatment
Tamoxifen is a medication known as a selective estrogen receptor modulator, or SERM. Tamoxifen often is prescribed as part of the treatment for ER+ breast cancer. Tamoxifen binds with estrogen receptors, without activating growth in breast cancer cells. In this way, tamoxifen prevents a women's own estrogen from binding with these cells. As a result, breast cancer cell growth is blocked
One study in mice concluded that flaxseed inhibited the growth of human estrogen-dependent breast cancer, and strengthened the tumor-inhibitory effect of tamoxifen. Multiple other studies with mice have shown that dietary flaxseed works with tamoxifen to inhibit breast tumor growth.
Researchers don't yet know if these results will apply to women with breast cancer, but this approach—adding flaxseeds to the diet—looks promising. And several studies in women have shown that higher intake of lignans, the key phytoestrogen in flaxseeds, is associated with reduced risk of breast cancer.
Further, lignans in the diet are associated with less aggressive tumor characteristics in women who have been diagnosed with breast cancer. In other words, women who have already been eating lignans at the time of diagnosis seem to have tumors that are less aggressive.
If you plan to add flaxseeds into your nutrition plan, please talk to your doctor or dietitian first, to make sure this is a good choice for you.
While research has shown some benefits with regards to ER+ breast cancer cell death and prevention of metastases within mice and cellular models, it is recommended that human intake should be through diet only, not supplementation. Only moderate amounts of ground flaxseeds, up to two to three tablespoons per day at most, should be eaten.
Always consult your health care team prior to making any changes to your diet or the dietary supplements you are using.
Jun 2, 2019 10:42PM macb04 wrote:
I just saw this study about Vitamin K2 and Breast Cancer.
Real-time cell analysis of the inhibitory effect of vitamin K2 on adhesion and proliferation of breast cancer cells.
Nutrition Research (New York, N.Y.) [30 May 2015, 35(8):736-743]
Type: Research Support, Non-U.S. Gov't, Journal Article
Breast cancer is the most prevalent cancer type worldwide. Continued efforts to improve treatment strategies for patients with breast cancer will be instrumental in reducing the death rates associated with this disease. In particular, the triple-negative breast cancer subtype of breast cancer has no targeted therapy available so it is essential to continue to work on any potential therapies. Vitamin K (VK) is known for its essential role in the clotting cascade. The antitumor properties of VK derivatives have been reported in both hepatocellular carcinoma and glioblastoma. Our hypothesis was that menaquinone-4, the most common form of vitamin K2 (VK2), is an effective anticancer agent againstbreast cancer cell types. In this study, we used a novel impedance-based live cell monitoring platform (xCELLigence) to determine the effects of VK derivatives on the triple-negative breast cancer cell line, MDA-MB-231, and the HER2+ breast cancer cell line, MDA-MB-453. Cells were treated with varying concentrations of menaquinone-4 (VK2) previously reported to have an antiproliferative effect on human glioblastoma cells. After initial testing, these concentrations were adjusted to 100, 125, and 150 μmol/L. A significant dose-dependent, growth inhibitory effect was found when cells were treated at these concentrations. These effects were seen in both adhesion and proliferation phases and show a dramatic reduction in cell growth. Additional analysis of MDA-MB-231 cells treated with VK2 (100 μmol/L) in combination with a low-glucose nutrient media showed a further decrease in adhesion and viability. This is the first study of its kind showing the real-time effects of VK derivatives on breast cancer cells and suggests that dietary factors may be an important consideration for patients.
Jun 11, 2019 01:36AM Trishyla wrote:
I may not always comment, Macb04, but I do appreciate the info you bring to this thread. It gives me a good starting point for my own research and interaction with my oncologist.
Please keep up the good work. Thanks.
Aug 31, 2019 03:01PM - edited Sep 1, 2019 02:37AM by SajeScents
I know the info must be here somewhere, but could someone please tell me how much calcium (mg) in terms of supplements I should be taking if I'm prescribed 4,000 IU of Vit D3 a day. My recent Bone Mineral Density T-score at the femoral neck went from -1.7 last year to -1.8 this year, yet I'm taking Vit D3, calcium, Vit K2 (small dose) and Prolia 60 mg twice a year. I walk 30 mins a day to and from my commuter train to work and home. I think I'm not taking enough calcium and Vit K2. I'm on anastrozole daily.
Thanks in advance!
Aug 31, 2019 06:46PM SajeScents wrote:
Thank you! That's true...D3 is supposed to work better with oil...forgot about that.
Aug 31, 2019 10:28PM ceanna wrote:
marijen, glad your levels have improved on the flaxseed oil base brand of Vit. D. I just recently had tests and after a summer of modest natural Vit D from the sun and continuing 5000 IU daily of Trader Joe's brand Vit.D in flaxseed oil and my levels are the highest they've ever been--70s. I believe I posted this here a few months ago, so you're welcome!! Hope your levels continue to remain at the high end of normal.
Aug 31, 2019 11:07PM macb04 wrote:
There is no upper limit of toxicity for Vitamin K2 ( do not take if you are on anticlotting medication like Coumadin). Without sufficient K2 it is much harder to put Calcium in your bones where it belongs. In Japan large doses of Vitamin K2 are used either on their own, or with Biphosphonates to treat Osteoporosis.
Vitamin K may play an important role in the prevention of fractures in postmenopausal women with osteoporosis. Menatetrenone is the brand name of a synthetic vitamin K2 that is chemically identical to menaquinone-4. The present review study aimed to clarify the effect of menatetrenone on the skeleton in postmenopausal women with osteoporosis, by reviewing the results of randomized controlled trials (RCTs) in the literature. RCTs that investigated the effect of menatetrenone on bone mineral density (BMD), measured by dual-energy X-ray absorptiometry and fracture incidence in postmenopausal women with osteoporosis, were identified by a PubMed search for literature published in English. Eight studies met the criteria for RCTs. Small RCTs showed that menatetrenone monotherapy decreased serum undercarboxylated osteocalcin (ucOC) concentrations, modestly increased lumbar spine BMD, and reduced the incidence of fractures (mainly vertebral fracture), and that combined alendronate and menatetrenone therapy enhanced the decrease in serum ucOC concentrations and further increased femoral neck BMD. This review of the literature revealed positive evidence for the effects of menatetrenone monotherapy on fracture incidence in postmenopausal women with osteoporosis. Further studies are required to clarify the efficacy of menatetrenone in combination with bisphosphonates against fractures in postmenopausal women with osteoporosis
Sep 1, 2019 01:58AM - edited Sep 1, 2019 02:51AM by SajeScents
Thank you, macb04, for the article. Is it better to try and take both types of K2 (MK-4 and MK-7) or is MK-4 sufficient? I am in Canada. So, the brands are different and possibility quality as well.
I see I have a lot to learn from all you ladies! Thanks everyone. I will try and study previous posts too. It's a lot to assimilate, I was confident my BMD would increase, so my recent results are disappointing! At least I am not in the osteoporosis range, still in osteopenia stage. I want to try and find the right supplements; and, of course, natural sunlight is best but here in Canada, we get less of that than most of you southern ladies!
Sep 2, 2019 10:33AM goodprognosis wrote:
Thanks for that info macb04.
I take a monthly tablet called Bonviva to aid calcium uptake and also take 1,000mg calcium with 800IU of Vitamin D3 daily. I thought I was taking enough of both but recently had DEXA which showed osteopenia. I am surprised as my previous scan showed improvement.
I will have to look into vitamin K2 therapy but as I live in Europe I'm not sure if it is available or even recommended here.
Sep 2, 2019 11:24PM macb04 wrote:
Vitamin K2 is not recommended in the US either, md's seem to know absolutely nothing about it, which is rather pathetic. As if they didn't know one more fact of basic biochemistry and biology.
Ì do want to say that I personally think a mix of Vitamin K2, of the MK-7 and MK-4 types might be beneficial due to their benefits of cardiovascular versus bone health improvements. I have not seen any study that discusses that particular topic, so correct me if I am wrong.
I take Osteo K Minis, which is MK-4, 2 caps twice per day, which totals 45mg ( milligrams). This is the dose of MK-4 that is used in Japan for treatment of Osteoporosis. Larger amounts of MK-4 than this have been safely taken in Japan with no known toxicity or side effects ( we are, of course, always talking about individuals NOT on anticlotting medications like Coumadin)
I worry about Osteoporosis as much, if not more than CVD, but that's just me. I know heart disease is the number 1 killer of women in the US. My mother had osteoporosis, and the bc industry shoved me into menopause at least 5 years or longer earlier than I should have gone, thus screwing up my bone and cardiovascular health in a major way.
Oct 28, 2019 01:36PM Jackster51 wrote:
Hi Ladies... I was just going to order some Vit K - and now confused as to which one to order for bone support? K2 MK-4 or K2 MK-7? or a combination of the 2? Suggestions? ALso I take Vit D daily, do I also need calcium? Thanks in advance!
Oct 28, 2019 03:42PM Beesie wrote:
My Oncologist said to look for K2 - MK7. What I've read since then seems to support that although I haven't found anything specific to breast cancer or supplements. It appears that older articles and research favored MK-4 but more recent studies and reviews favor MK-7. Apparently MK-7 is better absorbed, stays in the body longer and converts to MK-4 anyway so it provides the MK-4 benefits.
This is about natural, not supplements: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3502319/
This is talking about K2 as a treatment for RA: https://www.naturalmedicinejournal.com/journal/2015-10/choosing-right-vitamin-k2-menaquinone-4-vs-menaquinone-7
I have osteopenia and it was suggested that I take a combined K2 (MK-7) + D3 supplement, and a calcium supplement.
Oct 28, 2019 05:51PM macb04 wrote:
Beesie, I don't know if you noticed the info I put above about the High K2 dosing used alone and in combination with Bone Medications like Fosamax in Japan for Osteoporosis Treatment and Prevention.
I would like to point out the following:
1) The dose of Vitamin K2 used to treat Osteoporosis, safely, FOR DECADES, in Japan is 45, 000mcg per Day. No that is not a typo. 45 thousand micrograms per day. THE RDA for women here is 90mcg/ day.
2) There are 1,000mcg per milligram, so 45mg is equal to 45, 000mcg.
3) There have been women on these elevated doses of Vitamin K2, MK-4 in both Japan and the US for decades without any side effects. I take 45,000mcg per day for the past 3 plus years with no side effects whatsoever.
As there is such good research on MK-7, I have decided to mix the 2, with the predominance of my Vitamin K2 coming from MK-4.
Some women on this thread reported heart palpitations associated with MK-7, although a quick look didn't show any research discussing that.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________How much vitamin K should you take?
The recommended adequate intake of vitamin K you take in, both from food and other sources is below. Most people get enough vitamin K from their diets.
Children 0-6 months
Children 7-12 months
Women 19 and up
Women, pregnant or breastfeeding (under 19)
Men 19 and up