Is anyone else an atheist with BC besides me?
Comments
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Thanks, WR, thoughtful comment, it got me thinking too
One of the things no one ever seems to take into account when referring the the bible, is how it contradicts itself so often. There could be no possibility of taking it "literally" and not be in contradiction.
BUT, on to more important questions - WHAT is that bird, Lisa, and how ever did you get so close and focused - I can see it's individual feathers! Probably eyelashes, if it had them
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thank you notself---you phrased it perfectly! likewise whiterabbit the OP makes the assumption that her god is the god--what if it isn't?
the concept of the vengeful god was my first push away from belief---a god that would punish a little baby for not believing? To heck with him!!!!
I am sorry for those in the midwest and other parts who are baking. I confess I am happy to be here in the PNW where we are NOT baking....rather minimal summer than summer overload....
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SoCalLisa,
Is that a female Mountain Bluebird? She sure looks like one. The species is found as far south as Mexico.
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I think it was a hummingbird..but I was surprised he didn't fly away when I was pretty close..I took the pix with a little digital camera I had in my pocket..
Bren, I think that was Mount Miguel..we were south of Coronado on the strand..I was on a friend's boat but when they started playing some religious music, I just went on the docks and took a walk..
I don't say anything , just told them I needed the walk..
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I've read the responses and I say that they are all valid ones. Everyone has a free will and perfectly in his/her own right to believe what they so choose to. Scare tactics, manipulating, tricking, forcing are not a successful way to change someones opinions or beliefs. People that dont believe in God or heaven or hell have no reason to be afraid so trying to "scare" them would be futile.
The question I posed "if the bible is in fact true and there is a God, heaven and hell then what do you think will happen to those who refused to believe while they were living?" is a legitimate question for anyone whether they believe in God or not. I really wanted to know what you guys thoughts were if this were the case. Just like I've thought about if reincarnation were real, what would I come back as. I personally would like to come back as my dog because she has it made! But then I wonder if reincarnation were real, who decides what form someone comes back as. Or if nothing happens after death, your just gone, then how much does life really matter?
I did take the time to answer each question so if you choose to continue reading thats great, if not thats cool too and I'm not going to hijack this thread so it means if there are no further questions, then there will be no further posts by me. Btw Blue- I really do hope you are doing well. I think of you often and always wish the very best for you.
3montsmama: God doesn't punish little babies for not believing because they cannot possibly be held accountable. Just like they dont get spanked for peeing in a diaper when they cant use the potty yet. In fact, Jesus says all children are brought to Him in Heaven.
Caerus & Lassie: I've actually read the bible all the way through - it took me 8 months to do it and I've studied it 35+ years. I've yet to find a contradiction. People that try to prove the bible contradicts itself have never truly read it. They go by what someone else said or something they read else where, but with no fact basis. However we do have the Dead Sea scrolls. Over 600 scrolls and 1000's of fragments were discovered. Among those are every book of the bible except Esther. There are multiple (15 - 30) copies of the Old Testament written in 3 different languages and are 99.5% accurate to the same bible we have today. Scientists have been able to date these scrolls, some as old as 1000 years - yet they all say the same thing. Most importantly, the Ten Commandments were written 3500yrs ago and they have never changed. 40 authors, 1600 yrs, 3 languages, 13 countries and 3 continents and the Dead Sea scolls confirm the bible's accuracy. And I'll be happy to name the 40 writers if you are truly interested in knowing.
Rabbit: If there is another "creator" other than God who would be offended then that god is the best kept secret ever as there has never been an account of another god who offers 2 choices: heaven or hell.
Notself: I believe in one God, the God of the bible, not because I'm afraid not to, but because I have personal account of Him and all He has done in my life. I know without a doubt God has His hand on me and my family or I would have died many years ago. My son would have died as an infant and my daughter would have died when she was 3. There are countless times we have avoided tragedy only by His divine intervention. So do I believe because I'm afraid? No, I believe because I have witnessed His grace and because I am thankful. Therefore I have no reason to fear.
Maya2: your absolutely right those who personally know God and His grace never stop trying.
Caerus: Lama's "religion" is kindness, Christ's commandment is "love God, love one another" Love goes beyond kindness. Ted Bundy was kind.
lindasa: That's why God gave us all free will. Otherwise we'd all just be puppets. You absolutely have the right to believe what you want and I dont have the "power" to convince anyone of anything. I ask questions every chance I get the opportunity as that is how I learn. I talk to Jews, muslims, catholics and even antagonists. So far every person has welcomed the opportunity to tell me about their beliefs. They see fairly quickly I only want information, not an argument.
Blue: bad things happen not because of God, but because of people. And if your refereing to natural disasters, those are a result of sin as you can find in Genesis 6 & 7. Why doesnt He stop them from happening? Why should He when people dont want to believe He even exists? They are quick to blame Him, but never give Him credit for all the good He does. People take credit for the good stuff themselves.
Peace and love to all of you and know that if you never hear from me again, doesnt mean I dont care. It just means you've successfully convinced me to MMOB
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Throughout the ages there have been many gods and goddesses ... the Greeks, Romans and Scandanavians are some examples of cultures that had scores of them long before Christianity.
But the main point here is that we don't come here to talk about God. We have this thread to get away from all the god talk. We aren't really interested in debating godly things.
Thank you for your consideration.
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Moody, I think you misunderstood my statement. It was in response to your question, what would happen. I said, if there is a loving God nothing would happen. Because he is forgiveness, we would all go to heaven. There would be no hell. That's what I meant.
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Sorry Rabbit, just wanted to clear that up.
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You're cool blue ... can't fault you - or anybody else so inclined - for clearing up misrepresentations of what you said.
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Moody, I have good answers to all your questions but don't want to engage in a debate. We come here to get away from religious views. We're all old enough to have been exposed to all the arguments and have made our decision, thank you.
I hope you have peace of mind from your religious beliefs and share them with like minded people.
Peace, Love, Compassion, Joy.
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Moody,
May you be well and happy.
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The thing I love most about Religious Fanatics is that they spend so much time trying needing the affirmation of others for what they believe AND they have to have the last word i.e. know that if you never hear from me again, doesnt mean I dont care. It just means you've successfully convinced me to MMOB. Love the MMOB part, Moody. Hope you take it to heart.
We are n\ot stupid woman who are too lazy to find out the truth. We come from many diciplines , I
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I guess there should be a forum" for anyone who has not made up her/his mind" and then
those who want to convince someone could go there...
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Has anyone heard of the movie "The Ledge?" http://ledgemovie.com/
Looks like it could be interesting and thought-provoking.
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enjoyful,
I always think Basement Cat is more interesting than Ceiling Cat.
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I vote for Cold Comfort Farm.
Feel sorry for many, it's called "evangelicalism" - and a tenet of their practice to keep trying to convine people to their point of view. With SO many different folk doing it, kind of makes me smile, wondering what happens when their "views" collide.
I'm still warm with smiles with the Noodly Appendage, and the cleverness of the Pastaferian
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Hi all, haven't checked in for awhile and know I won't be able to again for awhile so I thought I'd catch up today. Ended up a few pages back and IllinoisNanacy your post about things coming together so well and breezing through chemo. Made me laugh out loud because yes, that's exactly how I construed it and it didn't make me upset, DH and I have laughed about it frequently over time. Not sure what I believe but I don't believe anyone "gets special treatment" or has their prayers answered directly in any fair religion or with any fair God. I do however, have some family and friends that believe prayers are answered. I had a terrible time on chemo, as my physician keeps reminding me "You almost died" and I'm still dealing with SE's that changed my life, career, and things I just plain used to like to do. If I'd have been a believer I'd sure be wondering what I did to deserve it. So, when friends and family reminded me how much they prayed for me I'd just smile and say thanks but inside be thinking "It didn't work very frickin well did it, better check out what you're doing wrong because no ones listening to those prayers of yours."
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From PubMed:
Study of the Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer (STEP) in cardiac bypass patients: a multicenter randomized trial of uncertainty and certainty of receiving intercessory prayer.
Benson H, Dusek JA, Sherwood JB, Lam P, Bethea CF, Carpenter W, Levitsky S, Hill PC, Clem DW Jr, Jain MK, Drumel D, Kopecky SL, Mueller PS, Marek D, Rollins S, Hibberd PL.
Source
Mind/Body Medical Institute, Department of Medicine, Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center, Harvard Medical School, Boston, MA, USA. hbenson@bidmc.harvard.edu
Abstract
BACKGROUND:
Intercessory prayer is widely believed to influence recovery from illness, but claims of benefits are not supported by well-controlled clinical trials. Prior studies have not addressed whether prayer itself or knowledge/certainty that prayer is being provided may influence outcome. We evaluated whether (1) receiving intercessory prayer or (2) being certain of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with uncomplicated recovery after coronary artery bypass graft (CABG) surgery.
METHODS:
Patients at 6 US hospitals were randomly assigned to 1 of 3 groups: 604 received intercessory prayer after being informed that they may or may not receive prayer; 597 did not receive intercessory prayer also after being informed that they may or may not receive prayer; and 601 received intercessory prayer after being informed they would receive prayer. Intercessory prayer was provided for 14 days, starting the night before CABG. The primary outcome was presence of any complication within 30 days of CABG. Secondary outcomes were any major event and mortality.
RESULTS:
In the 2 groups uncertain about receiving intercessory prayer, complications occurred in 52% (315/604) of patients who received intercessory prayer versus 51% (304/597) of those who did not (relative risk 1.02, 95% CI 0.92-1.15). Complications occurred in 59% (352/601) of patients certain of receiving intercessory prayer compared with the 52% (315/604) of those uncertain of receiving intercessory prayer (relative risk 1.14, 95% CI 1.02-1.28). Major events and 30-day mortality were similar across the 3 groups.
CONCLUSIONS:
Intercessory prayer itself had no effect on complication-free recovery from CABG, but certainty of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with a higher incidence of complications.
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Those who were certain that they were being prayed for had significantly worse outcomes.
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Really Moody, you knew Ted Bundy too?
Lisa, have you got another pic yet? It's past time for something beautiful or cute.
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I'm with Maya. Lisa, we need a pic. Also the Ted Bundy thing threw me too - kind - really?
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I try and live a good life, and be kind as mentioned above, because as a human being I believe that is the ethical thing to do, and not as an insurance against ending up in Hell...actually it feels pretty hellish here at the moment as temperatures have gone up to 38 centigrade!
Interesting experiment re intercessionary prayer notself, except I suspect that if one looked one would find other evidence which might give believers a better chance of recovery, or suchlike... not that this would convince me to believe in it...
SoCaLisa yr photos are beautiful, thankyou.
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I must have skipped over the Ted Bundy part ... thankfully.
Lisa .. how about a pic of the beautiful San Diego shoreline! The roses at Balboa Park will do nicely too!
hugs,
Bren
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Here is Point Loma looking from the tidepools to the light house...
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MoodyK13 Wrote: However, if the bible is in fact true and there is a God, heaven and hell then what do you think will happen to those who refused to believe while they were living?
Here's the rub with trying to answer your question - I don't believe that the bible is "True". Asking me to contemplate if it is true is like asking me to believe that the world is flat. The bible is a collection of stories written by people thousands of years ago, translated numerous times by MAN. The usual response I get from a christian when I mention that is... "But it was with God's divine intervention; therefore, it's not just man's interpretations."
Ummm, sorry just can't buy into that anymore!
I can't believe that the Red Sea was parted, that Lot's wife turned into a pillar of salt at the hand of God, that Johan was in the whale or "big fish" for three days and three nights, that Jesus could walk on water, etc ...
The bible is a collection of stories written by people who did not have the scientific knowledge we have today. Much as the Greek's used mythical gods and stories to explain their lives, I feel the author's of the bible did the same. Why is that so hard for some to believe? Ask yourself this, Did Pegasus really exist? Really? A winged horse sired by Poseidon and birthed by Medusa? When you look up at the stars do you think the constellation Pegasus is really that horse transformed? Well that's what the Greeks believed. That is they way they explained things they could not understand.
What do I think happens when we die? I think we live on in the lives of those we have touched in some way in this life. I'm trying my best to live my life so that those that I leave behind will remember me well. I fail many times so I'm sure there will be "those stories" but I hope to leave more good impressions than bad. When we die I don't think we go to heaven or hell. I don't think it will matter what one believes when one dies they will simply be dead but they will live on in the lives of others. That doesn't scare me. In fact, it inspires me, most of the time, to be as loving & caring as I can in this life.MoodyK13 - Do me a favor and watch the DVD Religulous. I would be very interested what you think of it.
Sorry to the others for putting this out there but I just had to.
Now ... Lisa, I think that looks like a humming bird too. Shocking that it let you get so close! Very nice picture! I have some garden pics I want to post but hope you guys will forgive my photography skills. They are not as good as Lisa's.0 -
this is from the rose garden at Balboa park
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SoCalLisa, excuse my ignorance, but where are these stunning photos being taken?
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PlantLover, thank you for your post. MUCH needed and perfect between those beautiful pictures, thank you LIsa.
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Moody ah but see and there's the rub---Its Your Version of Christianity has little unbaptised babies and children in heaven. By contrast, my MIL's version (to which she no longer belongs) had her unbaptised stillborn child buried outside the cemetary because it wasn't a Christian when alive. And the one that ran the school I attended when I was in 3d and 4th grade had me going to hell for not being baptised.
so who's version of Christianity should we be believing? You mean one is more right and you've discovered it? I'm happy for you!
Enough with this silliness. As BrigadoonBenson said, that MMOB part sounds real good. Go in peace.
SoCalLisa, I like your photos. I always remember how beautiful the drive was when I first moved to SoCal (late 80s) when you went between LA and SD. So sad to see all the construction---I am glad that you are sharing the pretty parts with us!
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Maria, the pictures are from around San Diego, CA..
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Oh how stupid of me...SoCa must stand for south California right??? Daaaaaaa
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