Is anyone else an atheist with BC besides me?
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Tina, as I read it, msphil was not simply telling us how she feels about religion. She was asking us how we could make it through breast cancer without sharing the same beliefs that she holds - that's quite different. She then said that she would pray to her god for us (for our salvation, perhaps?) To me, the implication of her post is that she has the right answer and those who don't believe are wrong.
As a believer, you may be interested in sharing your perspective and hearing ours, but I don't think you can ascribe the same intent to msphil. None of us know why she posted here. I agree that msphil likely meant no harm but please understand that at least to some of us, her post was offensive. If you are not aware, it happens that msphil posts the same highly religious message all over the board. Although no doubt some have been offended (and others have been appreciative) I'm not aware of anyone ever raising an objective before - I certainly haven't. In this discussion thread, however, it's been clearly stated several times that those opinions are not welcome. So if nothing else, it's a question of respect.
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You know, early on in this discussion I made the mistake of begging forgiveness for my insensitivity in offering prayers to people without considering whether or not they are atheists. My posts were truly from the heart and I am ashamed to say that I had been short-sighted in the past in not being sensitive to others. I was raked over the coals and treated quite rudely both in the thread and in PMs. I deleted my posts some time later.
One thing that I think perhaps some of the posters to thread might not realize is that we can disagree without insulting each other. A big difference between this thread and the prayer or christian threads is that you will not see us going on and on about how stupid/illogical/tyrannical/gullible/misguided/pushy/ignorant atheists are--this thread is peppered with extremely offensive comments of that nature directed toward those of us with a different belief system that we accept as TRUTH just the same as you all accept your belief system as TRUTH. I am saying this because I suspect that the posters who have made such insulting comments may not even be aware of it, much like I was not aware how hurtful and insulting my offer of prayers to others who don't believe as I do could be. I am glad that I know now. I try to be sure not to respond to posts with offers of prayers unless it is clear to me the recipient will welcome them.
I don't suppose to know the motivations of any of the posters here who have "invaded" (just like I am doing now) your discussion. I also, though, have an interest in how one deals with the trials of life without a higher power. This does not come from an accusatory or coercive standpoint. It comes from the fact that my faith is as much a part of my makeup as breathing and I honestly cannot imagine functioning without it. I do legitimately wonder about our differences and wish we could have a non-insulting dialog where both sides discuss ideas without intimidation or argument. I'm not talking about a debate. I am not in a position to have much contact with atheists in my situation and I do have curiousity.
Although I don't hold the authority to do so, I apologize for the intrusions on your thread that have made it difficult for you all to carry on your conversations. I hope we can all agree that we have concern for each other. Sometimes we are clumsy in expressing that.
Diane
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Diane,
I think that most of the women who've posted here have said that they are not at all upset when someone offers prayers. It might be a bit awkward if one is a non-believer but I think generally non-believers accept that the offer is made with sincerity and it's accepted as such. When diagnosed with cancer or going through a hard time in our lives, we all can use whatever help we can get, so if someone feels that prayers are a way to help, I'm sure not going to argue with that. I appreciate it, in fact.
To me there was a significant difference in msphil's post. "....what source will U call out to help U? I will pray for U anyway, and ask God to Bless U, try HIM, I,m now 15 yrs cancer FREE, thank GOD." This is simply my interpretation, but I felt that it was our salvation that was being prayed for, not simply our health and well-being, and it seemed to me that this prayer was deemed necessary specifically to compensate for our grave error in being non-believers ("I will pray for U anyway"). And then there was that little effort to convert - "try HIM". Since I assume (perhaps wrongly) that msphil is referring to a Christian god, as a non-believer of Jewish origin, I find that offensive on two fronts!
So it's interesting how we interpret this differently. What you see as a kind offer of prayer, I see as an attempt to shove religion down my throat against my wishes. I have no issue at all with any kind offer of prayer, but I sure do get my back up when someone tells me that my beliefs (or non-beliefs) are not as valid or as good as theirs.
I did find your comment "...a different belief system that we accept as TRUTH just the same as you all accept your belief system as TRUTH" to be very interesting. I can only speak for myself, but I certainly don't see my beliefs to be the truth. I don't know what is true. From everything that I've experienced and learned, and based on how I view the world, I've concluded that there likely isn't a god (or at least not one that I have any interest in praying to or believing in). But I might be wrong. This is something that no human on earth knows or can know. And given that, it's no surprise that people around the world hold so many different beliefs. Believing strongly for oneself is one thing, but I'm honestly bewildered when someone says that they know what is true. You can believe and you can have faith in your belief, but how can you know the unknowable? This is something that's always fascinated me about religion.
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I'm not sure if this thread is the place for continuing this discussion--I don't want to derail it or start any negativity. I do understand your feelings about the recent posting and hadn't meant to imply that I condoned it or felt that it was appropriate.
I think I may have been clumsy (there's that word again!) with the "TRUTH" statement. I meant "truth" in the sense of our own, individual experiences. In MY reality, my "TRUTH", there is a higher power called God with whom I have a personal relationship. This is my truth because I have experienced it. I have not seen the wind, but I have seen the evidence of its existence.Perhaps maybe I should have chosen the word "reality" rather than "truth". I don't know...it's so hard to think of the right words sometimes! Before I had the personal experience that solidified my faith and belief in God, I felt similarly to how you feel about the unknowable. I had investigated several different belief systems and found myself very much uninspired. The thing is, though, that I have never doubted the existance of a higher power--the doubts more pertained to the higher power's identity and characteristics. I don't know exactly why I've always felt that way, but it does make me all the more curious about others who do not.
I do want you to know that I completely respect your choices and in no way mean to insult. Even though I understand the viewpoint some of the inappropriate postings are coming from, I agree with you that they are an unwelcome intrusion and really have no place on this thread. I am glad that you personally have not been one I have insulted by offerings of prayer, but I am fully aware that I have offended others. I am glad that this thread taught me how I have been insensitive when my intent was to be supportive and I am also grateful for your understanding and kindness.
Diane
PS I noticed that the originator of this thread has not posted for some time. Do you know how she is doing?
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Diane, I appreciate the clarification that you provided in your post. How we've all come to our beliefs, or non-beliefs, is really interesting to me. Which ever side we've landed on, it seems that for many of us, it was a gradual process that got us there, although there may have been a defining moment that either solidified our beliefs or changed the direction of those beliefs.
I've noticed too that dudess is missing. I hope that someone posts who knows how she is doing. It's odd for someone to participate so actively on the board and then just disappear out of the blue. I hope everything is okay.
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thedudess (Shelby) hasn't logged on to the boards since March, I think. She was having some problems with chemo (TAC) at the time. I haven't heard from her since then, but I just sent her a pm to see if maybe she has her BCO account set up to get an email alert when she gets a pm.
otter
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How refreshing to get onto a thread where people are NOT saying "My prayers are with you"!
I was raised to believe in the Christian God (United Church of Canada - similar to Presbyterian in the U.S.). In fact, I was a church organist/choir director. Loved the music and the rituals, but kept asking myself how "my" religion was "right" and others were "wrong". For several years I was agnostic, but within the past few years I slowly became an atheist, and can actually even tell people that now!
I am constantly flummoxed by the overtly religious evangelical Americans who don't believe in universal health care, and who support the NRA and capital punishment. Do they not believe in one of Christianity's foremost tenets -- "I am my brother's keeper", and the commandment "Thou shalt not kill"? It's strange, isn't it, that the countries with arguably the most humane and socially responsible and compassionate legislation are also those who report the lowest religious affiliation per capita (Canada, Great Britain and the Scandianavian countries, for example)?
Just a couple of my thoughts on the subject of religion...
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I have often wondered about the same things. How can a true Christian not feel an obligation to care for others? Also so many are fearful. It just doesn't make sense to me. Seems to me that they should be less fearful. Note to Christians: These are rhetorical questions. I do not want answers.
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Diane - I have no problem with your two latest posts on this thread. The kinds of posts that get me all riled up are the ones that seem to say "how stupid are you to not believe in god." Especially since they usually mean the Christian god.
I was not raised in any religion, though I have read about and studied many of them. Part of my problems with any theology is that it by definition denies all other cultures' ideas. If I were a religious Hindu, I would have a very different belief in what god(s) are. I'd be religious, but I'd still be left out in the cold over all the Christian-based threads.
When I first started reading about other religions (non-Judeo-Christian), all the books were labeled "mythology" or "legends." Who are we to say that the storm god is any less real than Jesus? The storm god certainly shows up in many more religious texts across unrelated cultures.
It's the "we are right, and everybody else is wrong" attitude that makes me mad.
susan
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Hi all,
I have become very concerned, regularly alarmed even, by the growth in 'stadium faith'. The recorded teachings of Jesus Christ (the ones which can be verified historically) form the basis of my spiritual beliefs but in these times when someone asks me I am incredibly reluctant to say that I am a 'Christian'; I don't want an automatic assumption made that I am connected with an exclusivist mega-machine. Stadium faith is big here in Australia, but not as scary as the US yet. It's getting there, though. The overt exclusivity of modern 'Christianity' is exactly the thing that immediately redefines it as something else. Christ, a deeply humane, quiet and gifted trouble- making philosopher and politcal activist wouldn't go within a bull's roar of these mutations of the community he established. I, for one, simply cannot arrogantly presume to accept or reject a fellow human being on the basis of his/her beliefs or lack thereof.
People who offer heartfelt 'prayers' do so in love, as do the girls who offer 'pink mist', or those who burn candles, or who plant a seed, or who gaze at the stars imaging healing for their bc sister 12,000 miles away.(I do all of these). I would be deeply hurt (but not offended) if I thought my prayers were treated with derision. Therin lies a clue. Feeling hurt belies a deep humanity. Feeling offended belies.....spiritual presumptuousness??
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Hi gals, I enjoy this respectful, thoughtful, intelligent thread. How wonderful that we can discuss this issue with so few mean posts.
I have always had a terrible issue with "my faith is right, you are going to hell", I always thought God, if there is one, would decide that, not man. So I floated along for years. Hating the schisms that have always existed. You can't tell me that a kind, generous, thoughtful Muslim, A buddhist, A Hindi, A Christian, A jew, or any other member or any other group is or isn't going to heaven, if there is one. I think that everyone should be the kindest, most honest, most gentle, most helpful person we can be, we need to share our wealth, spend our time when possible helping others and the animals. Then, we'll see. But again, to do this JUST for a reward is not the point at all. This is what I believe.
Don't know what you would call it.
Hugs to a lovely group of intelligent women, Shirlann
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Sadly, I have not met a Christian who has not told me (in the course of a discussion of this topic of heaven) that I will NOT be going to heaven because I am of Jewish descent. (E.g. They all seem to believe that I cannot get to heaven as a Jew, nor anyone regardless of whether they've heard of Jesus or not). They actually feel sad and sorry for me. And good deeds... well, they seem to mean nothing in terms of the grand scheme of things... it's all about Jesus and acceptance thereof that bestows upon the believer the ultimate reward after death.
L'chaim!
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Shari,
You can count me as the first Christian you've "met" who will not tell you that you're not going to heaven. Obviously, none of us has all the right answers but I will share part of a sermon I once heard from my pastor that I muse on often," Maybe when we get to this place called Heaven, it will be like meeting the Lion in The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe". Everyone (Muslim, Christian, Jew, etc.) might all be pleasantly surprised at what they see. I'll admit that's a controversial concept for many Christians, but I've also met my share of people of other faiths who are just as obstinate.
I come to this thread fairly often just to ponder on a perspective that is very different from my own. I think we can all grow by doing that every once in a while.
Hugs
Bobbie
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Wow...nice thread! I'm an athiest who just had a lumpectomy on 9/12 for DCIS. I'm fortunate that it was caught early and my surgeon got very large clear margins, so no radiation even! I find this thread interestingly because people have offered lots of "prayers" for me over the past month. My boss even took me into his office to pray over and with me (he's getting his degree in theology). While I find such things mildly uncomfortable, I always try to take them in the spirit in which they are offered. He felt that he was offering me comfort and support, and that's what I accepted from him. Others who know that I'm not traditionally religious will often tell me they are "sending good thoughts" or "positive energy" my way. To me that's equivalent to someone with religious faith praying for me. I don't find it offensive at all, and would never denigrate someone's beliefs...just as I expect mine to be respected.
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Gayle D-- I totally agree with you. I am not religious but if someone wants to pray for me, I'm all for it! It's the thought that counts. As long as no one is trying to force their beliefs on me, I am all for some positive thinking/prayer
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I'm the second!!! Shari, you have met me, and I honor and cherish the Jewish tradition completely.
Well, to me, to be arrogant enough to tell a Jewish person they are not going to heaven is just plain stupid. What a shame that would be, since Jesus would not be there.
If there is a heaven, we might all be very surprised to see who is there and who is not. I know a lovely Muslim woman, I have known her for years, and to have anyone say to her that she is not going to heaven is simply wrong.
Same with the wonderful, kind, gentle people of any faith, or of none at all. A man or woman's heart and gentle grace are not the venue of any one anything. So there.
I love all you kind, intelligent sisters, and I love to read this thread. It is so wonderful to have a place where everyone feels comfortable enough to speak their minds. The whole principle we live by.
I love our freedom here, aren't we lucky?
Hugs and kisses to all my dear sisters, Shirlann
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Wow group..with Guitar Girl, Shirlann and me en masse going to our San Diego Lunchbunch
we could be dangerous!!!! LOL
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I am a practicing Catholic. However, I want to pass on something my gpa told me. It does not mattr if you believe in God or not, live your life as a good person and that way when you die, if there is, you will be okay, if there is not, who cares. (I am sure he got it from someone else).
As a Catholic, I cannot believe that any deity would have anything to do with giving someone this one purpose!
Please believe as you choose but believe in yourself most of all!
And is one more idiot tells me that my BC happened for a reason, I am going to be in confession for a long time!
thedudess please accept my best wishes for a speedy recovery!
gmakidd
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Shari, I'm another one! Pleased to meet you!
How could I ever presume to tell you or anyone else what will happen after we die???
XX Take care.
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I haven't posted before, but have read some.
I'm agnostic, teetering on the bring of atheism. It's all a highly intellectual process for me ongoing for many years. I was just fine with it until "the beast" entered my life.
I wish I could believe in a god or something. How wonderful to have someone to take the daily fear and uncertainty away, to turn it all over to and go back to "before."
Despite a fundamentalist Christian upbringing, I can't accept the idea of an afterlife with people sorted by what religiion they espoused. And the god concept just doesn't mesh with my understanding and experience of reality.
My struggle these days is finding a way to deal with the stresses of diagnosis, treatment, loss, fear on a spriitual level. Not spiritual as in religion or new age woo-woo, but as in one's innate connection to the universe.
Towhee
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>>Sadly, I have not met a Christian who has not told me (in the course of a discussion of this topic of heaven) that I will NOT be going to heaven because I am of Jewish descent.<<
Shari, you bring up probably the biggest sticking points I have with Christianity. The teachings are very pointed -- only through the Son can you get to the Father. I have such a huge problem with that. Supposedly, there's exceptions for people who were never exposed to the opportunity to be saved. But that still leaves millions, probably billions, of people in this world who are aware of Christianity yet choose something else to believe. So unless I'm understanding the teachings incorrectly, that means millions and billions of souls are going to burn in hell for eternity for failing to choose Jesus as Lord and Savior? Boy howdy, but that's too tall an order for me to wrap my mind around. I just can't believe that's how things really work.
I know I'm feeding into a direction that thedudess didn't want. I sure hope she's ok btw. This is supposed to be a thread where atheists can lend support to each other without the distraction of people offering them prayers. I just hope all of us end up in a good place no matter what our beliefs. If I'm not ruffling any feathers, I'll keep tabs on this thread and chime in every so often. I don't seem to fit in any of the categories. I'm an outsider even on the atheist thread! lol
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Althea - we are all outsiders!
I feel sort of hypocritical right now. I'm in Florida dealing with issues of very old - and in one case sick - parents with dwindling money. I signed them up for hospice care (you can get that even if you are not dying) and the people who have been the nicest have been the chaplains.
I just got off the phone with a call from a really nice rabbi. He told me about the blessings he said over my father, and I didn't understand a word of it because I wasn't raised religiously. He was a very nice man. He offered me compassion without attaching religion or guilt to it.
That's what we are here to do for each other. It's not about what you believe or what I believe, it's compassion without the trappings of systematized modes of belief.
susan
Lisa and Shirl - kick me if I start rolling my eyes too much when prayer gets into the conversation!
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Good Afternoon All (and Good Morning Kerry, or it will be by the time you read this!)
When I was a little girl (the youngest of 5, by 8 years) I just couldn't understand why I was not in the family pictures taken before I was born. Couldn't conceive of not being "here" - or rather, my ego couldn't. I think that the human ego also cannot imagine not ever being in this world (or any other "world") after death. A belief in the next world, heaven, nirvana or whatever, is the way the ego copes with that dilemma.
When religious belief systems become oppressive (my way or the highway) is when we run into trouble. When an individual running for U.S. President has to declare his "Christian" beliefs before even being considered for the highest office of the land is when we all should worry. IMHO, what's happening in the U.S. now is just as damaging as the House UnAmerican Activities Committee and McCarthyism's tirade against the "evil communists" during the 1950's. I believe the fear of "socialized medicine" (universal healthcare) is a holdover from that era.
I'm sure we can all think of examples of religious oppression happening today and throughout the ages, many of which have had far more dire consequences. I guess that is really why I want to avoid being associated with any religion. And, I'm hoping my ego will continue coping with the fact that there is no other world for me but the one I'm living in right now.
Good health to you all (and L'chaim to Shari)
Linda
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I went to Rome during a holiday and during a tour of an ancient village carved out of a mountain side, I sudden had the urge to sit down on the ground and play with the pebbles. I then proceeded climb up the rock moutain and stairwells carved into the limestone as if I had been there before.
My husband just stood there and looked at me like I was insane. It was just a feeling and it was a wonderful one indeed. I felt like a happy child and as if I had done this at some time somewhere, as a child. And I did not want to leave, I recall and for the next 15 years,
I still believe that is a very real possibility I was there as a very young girl in some other life and I am not into that scene at all. Spirits, fortune tellers, psychics - am very logical and practical and though sometimes entertained by the famous ones, I do believe it is BS. Except for this.
I concluded I lived there as a young girl and died at a young age as nothing more has come to me and it was too profound to dismiss as unsubstantial.
So I hope that our energy will indeed remain close to earth, being kept close by gravity to go on to inhabit another newly created beating heart and let our souls share the earth again with the others.
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Anyone read Many Lives, Many Masters? Lynn, your post reminded me of that book. It was a very impressive book written by a Harvard psychiatrist who used age regression hypnosis to help patients with their irrational fears. In the process, many patients slipped back into previous lives which he discusses in the book. Any way, I'm not a believer in a personal relationship with any diety. I told someone I was a Druid when they tried to "save" me. It probably would help to believe but I just don't buy it. Sending positive vibes to all. Like my grandmother said, "It couldn't hurt."
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Hi there, I read your message here. I am sorry for your recent Diagnosis. Unfortunately, you having this opinion is your own choice.I am real down to earth, and having BreastCancer is not a easy thing to absorb and deal with on a daily basis. I am not religious, but, Having Faith and God, and keeping a all positive attitude is only going to help you with this. I think your going to find out going down this long journey, I am right. It is all about your attitude. That is what will keep you alive and going for a long time.
God Bless,
Love,Kaloni
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Kaloni, there is nothing "unfortunate" about choosing to not believe. I think most of us here consider it a logical, intelligent choice. Personally, I'm much more at peace since I've allowed myself to ease over from being mostly agnostic to mostly atheist. I no longer look at some of the horrible things going on in the world, or the sad, painful things that have happened to some people I loved, and wonder whether there is a master plan or reason for all of it. Now I just accept that s**t happens and life is not fair.
What is unfortunate is that there are those who don't respect the choices of others and don't understand that there is no one "correct" way of looking at the world & religion and dealing with breast cancer. I had no problem getting through breast cancer without a belief in god.
Lynn, Shrink, interesting topic. Although I don't believe in god, I have always been fascinated by stories I've heard about people who'd had a connection to a previous life. It's particularly interesting to me when I hear about situations where very young children know something intimate and personal about someone who lived years before they were ever born. I wouldn't say I believe in that, but I haven't written it off either.
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I am of the mind that planet earth is trillions of years old, that mankind has come and gone (become extinct) many times over those years, thanks to oxygen, sunlight, food supply and drinking water along with atom sized bacteria. I also concluded each probably relied on fossil fuels and probably ended up where we are today though a comet or catastrophic volcanic activity could also have sent them planet into a deep freeze.
I have other theories about the universe and how it came to be, but I will not bore you with them.
But, I have thought about this since a child, and explored nearly every religion in the western hemisphere to see what they had to say and just thought to myself, "this is a fairy tale if I have ever heard one."
Though I do believe Jesus was a great man who did walk the earth and made quite a big impression with his insights and teachings. When he arose again, I concluded he most probably was in a coma induced by dehydration and exposure, causing his breathing and heart to slow to an undetectable rate.
But think of early man, looking up at the stars and wondering how it all came about, creating a God as to our having been created is the easy answer.
Bill Maher (HBO) has a movie out called Religioulous (like ridiculous) which I want to see.
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There's a very interesting book called "The God Delusion" and it is both insightful and encouraging to those who do not believe in God. He covers many aspects of belief in God and he refers to aetheists as the new homosexuals - meaning that there are many aetheists in this country - far more that we realize - but they are compelled to stay in the closet for fear of being ostracized by the 'religious' folks.
I don't believe in God - a fact that I tried to deny for many years. But now I am at peace with that realization despite having been brainwashed through 12 years of Catholic school.
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Hey, all
Let me tell you what happened to me when I went for outpatient surgery to have my port put in.
As I was coming out of the anesthesia, two nurses came into the room and asked if I believed in Jesus. I said yes. Then they asked if it was ok if they prayed for me. Again I said yes. They stood around my bed, held my hands and said a prayer. I have to admit, my first thought when they did that was I must be about to die. No, actually my first thought was "Oh, Sh#$, I'm about to die" I think nurses and other medical professionals should think about what unspoken message a patient is getting from what they do. I truly was afraid I was about to kick the bucket at that moment. Maybe they should have just said, "We'll be praying for you" At least then I wouldn't have thought it was all over.
That said, I am a believer and I certainly believe that prayer helps. I am grateful for all the prayers that have gone up for me since my diagnosis. I also pray every day for a cure for myself and for all people who are dealing with this nasty disease. I pray for the strength and grace to handle whatever comes. May we all find comfort where we can, in whatever form works for us.
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