Is anyone else an atheist with BC besides me?
Comments
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Stormynyte
What a difficult question. When I was reading your post, one of the first things I thought of was a very famous Column in an old New York Newspaper - in answer to a real little girl named Virginia who wrote to the Editor to ask if there really was a Santa Claus. The Column: "Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus" is still one of my favorite things.
I'm with Scoot, Bren, no answers to the mystery, but feel there is some kind of continuity. Full confessions - I'm absorbed in the work of Carl Jung, the collective unconscious, also have lots of friends who are Tibetan buddhists.
Remember having a chuckle when a woman I know was about to take certain vows which meant she would have to commit to a certain daily practice - I said how can you do that for life? Her answer, with a wonderful warm smile: " Well, it's only for one lifetime."
Also remember reading John Avedon's In Exile from the Land of Snows.
What all these musings don't address - is the unimaginable pain,grief, saying goodbye to one's children -I still cry, when I listen to Henry Fonda say the last lines from the movie The Grapes of Wrath. And, on many a starry night, I've gone outside and "talked" to my own Dad who died more than 45 years ago.
So, no answers, and thank you for gracing all of us with the trust to hear your beautiful question. The only thing I'm certain of, is you will know, deep in your own heart what to day and do when you need to AND I HOPE IT IS TO YOUR GRANDCHILDREN!!!!!!!!
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Yep, recycling. I think gardening explains it best especially if one composts the plants from previous years. As for consciousness, I think that is one of the truly big questions. Perhaps consciousness is like gravity---just another mysterious force in the universe. Some physicists think we are not just part of a universe but part of a multi verse where in one or another everything possible happens.
I work at my local hospice house and it is nice to see the comfort a belief in religion gives people. However we occasionally have an atheist stay with us and they meet death as calmly as the deeply religious.
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Too sweet Sunflowers, and so true. The editorial is ultimately about the real-ness of fantasy. I am an atheist but thrive in fantasy. The editorial aptly wonders where we would be without it - that is my reading, at least. Fantasy is also interwoven with identity - that comparison between being a Virginian and a believer in Santa Claus say it perfectly, in my view. One can be an atheist, but also a "believer" in so many ways.
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Athena .. I loved your last two sentences. I feel so much better about my not knowing.
hugs buddy,
Bren
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From the Metta Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/snp.1.08.than.html :
...Think: Happy, at rest,
may all beings be happy at heart.
Whatever beings there may be,
weak or strong, without exception,
long, large,
middling, short,
subtle, blatant,
seen & unseen,
near & far,
born & seeking birth:
May all beings be happy at heart...0 -
{{{{{{{{ LIKE}}}}}}}}}} Athena
I thrive in the world of fantasy. So many of the "real" fairy tales, written down versions of old folk lore, are as powerful as most forms of psychological study today. Of course, being a Champion of DeNile, I only read what makes me feeel GOOD.
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You ladies are beautiful. Thank you.
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ah, thanks notself
there are so many, many bodihisatvas ( sp???) among us.....so, as Tiny Tim ends another favorite story with these words, "God bless us one and all." And, when I use the reverse of dog, I include every living being, giant blue whales, crocus, and the little purple fairies dancing in the snow outside my window. Surprised the GALES of wind aren't blowing them away, but they're brave & stong little creatures.
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Stormy .. we sure don't have all the answers, but stay close and we'll give you as much love, comfort and support as we've got.
hugs,
Bren
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Speaking at his brother's funeral, DH put his hand over his heart and said that he would live in our hearts forever. The following day GS (7 years old) announced that he had a "soul catcher" in his chest and that the brother was there. His Mom asked if her soul was in there too, and he said, "no, not until you're dead, but then you will be." I like the thought that we are in the hearts of those we love and those who love us. And as they say, love never dies.
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ah, the wisdom of a child....
I wonder how many others here have Dreamcatchers hanging over their beds????
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The soul catcher is wonderful, I love it
I am in a purple mood today
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OH, how glorious - is that the "real" color - or did you play with it???? either way - I LOVE IT!
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Lisa .. what a beautiful flower .. I love the color.
hugs,
Bren
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that is the real color
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Haven't posted in ages but found this quote the other day and thought you all might like it.
Morality is doing what is right no matter what you are told. Religion is doing what you are told no matter what is right.
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Stormynyte--
I agree, how to approach this is going to be so different for different people. Here's my take: My father died when I was young, so as a parent, I do think about how to explain/prepare my child for death. We've also had some family members who have died, and have had to discuss that with our child. It would be lovely to be able to say a person is in heaven and is looking down on us, but I personally don't think I could do that. We've always approached the existence of god and heaven with the answer, "I don't know...what do you think?" when my child has asked. But something we have said is that the love between people never dies, and that we live on through the memories we have of each other. When I tell my child I'll love him forever, he has asked, "even when you die?" and I have told him yes. I tell him he will always carry my love with him, will always know he is loved, wherever he goes or I go, because it is that strong and enduring.
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I think that children understand love continuing after someone dies the way that love continues when someone is not present.
Religion in my personal experience caused a great deal of stress when I was a child. My father didn't go to Mass so I worried that he would go to hell. It weighed on my terribly. It was a wonderful experience when at about the age of 12-13 I suddenly stopped believing in the mythology. I don't know what happened because the rest of my family stayed believers and I never discussed religion with my father.
Perhaps belief and non belief are at least partly a function of the way the brain works. As the brain develops through childhood to adult, the believing part either grows stronger or disappears.
Any thoughts?
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brigadoon - that is one of the best quotations I think I've ever read. Thank-you.
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notself,
For me, you hit it perfectly. When I came to the realisation that there isn't a higher being protecting us, I would think to myself that I had no control of my thoughts or beleifs. I am a logical person and have no control of my brains take on things. Not a feeling that I shared w/ anyone. Its too simple. I would have left my self open to much ridicule from family and friends and they would have tried to pick my thoughts apart in hopes of changing my 'brain'
Here are a few quotes from a song by CAT STEVENS...FATHER AND SON...That always resonated w/me.
"How can I try to expain, when I do he turns away again. Its always been the same old stroy"
"From the moment I could talk I was ordered to listen..now theres a way and I know that Id have to go away"
"All the times that I've cried, keeping all the things I KNEW inside.....Its hard, but hader to ignore it"
"If they were right I'd agree but its them they know not me, now I know, that I'd have to go away"
As far as my children and religon goes, if the subject came up I kept it light. I never discouraged their going to church w/thier friends and family. They will grow into thier beliefs. I gave them the freedom of choosing, something I did not have as a child. They are now happy and good people, compassionate and apathetic and very successful 'in life'. I often think "How did that happen" My son is an intelectual and my DD is like me, logical and has common sense, native inteligence.
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Does anyone recall, years ago when Cat Stevens was ostrasized from the music industry and most radio stations stopped playing his wonderful music because he changed his religous beliefs. He became Islamic. He never backed down and his music is now played. I LOVE his music.
My new favorite, which I relate to my BC and Life is "MOON SHADOW". Make the most of what life deals you. "IF I EVER LOOSE MY HANDS.......I WON'T HAVE TO WORK NO MORE.......I'm being followed by a MOON SHADOW"
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thanks for reminding me how much I love Cat Stevens music
another thank you to Brigadoon - wow, perfect.
Also, think of His Holiness the Dalai Lama, when once asked what his religion was "about" - "My religion is kindness, he said."
Still thinking about Stormy's question - and her situation - and how fortunate we all are to have this place to share our loving attempts at responding, learning from each other.
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Stormynyte, I've been thinking about your question but I have no simple answers.
I know some people start their children off with a traditional religious upbringing even though they themselves don't attend services or believe in a higher being (etc.). When their kids are at an appropriate age, the family begins to discuss religions and beliefs. By the time they're old enough, the children can decide for themselves. But that takes a lot of planning and forethought, and it requires the parents to set aside their own disbelief or even behave hypocritically. I would find that difficult, and it's likely a moot issue for you.
Along the lines of "we never really go away," I'd like to recall a poem I'm sure most of us have heard, probably in association with a funeral. The poem is most often attributed to "Mary Frye", but there are a multitude of versions and lots of other people have taken credit. Here's a website that discusses the lineage of the poem: http://www.businessballs.com/donotstandatmygraveandweep.htm
According to that site, the following version of the poem is the one Ms. Frye said was the original. It's slightly different from the one I've seen most often, but I think I like this one better. The last line still makes me cringe a bit, but it's better than the more common alternative ("I did not die").
"Do Not Stand At My Grave and Weep" by Mary Frye
Do not stand at my grave and weep,
I am not there, I do not sleep.
I am in a thousand winds that blow,
I am the softly falling snow.
I am the gentle showers of rain,
I am the fields of ripening grain.
I am in the morning hush,
I am in the graceful rush
Of beautiful birds in circling flight,
I am the starshine of the night.
I am in the flowers that bloom,
I am in a quiet room.
I am in the birds that sing,
I am in each lovely thing.
Do not stand at my grave and cry,
I am not there. I do not die.+++++++++++++++
There is another version of the poem that's sometimes attributed to Native Americans (which ones???), but it's obviously derived from the Mary Frye poem. The Native American version is also discussed at the website I mentioned above.
"A Native American Prayer" ("author unknown")
I give you this one thought to keep -
I am with you still - I do not sleep.
I am a thousand winds that blow,
I am the diamond glints on snow,
I am sunlight on ripened grain,
I am the gentle autumn rain.
When you awake in the morning's hush
I am the swift, uplifting rush
Of quiet birds in circled flight.
I am the soft stars that shine at night.
Do not think of me as gone -
I am with you still - in each new dawn.+++++++++++++++++++
That's sort of where I am with all of this. When I think of my dad, I think of the trees in the woods behind our house, the stones on the many beaches we walked, the birds he taught me to identify at the feeder in the yard, ... so many things. And, I think of all of the people he taught and worked with and influenced. No, he's not gone. He's here, all around me.
otter
[Edited for typo's.]
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Otter, that is absolutely beautiful.
I like this line of thinking, it is a comforting thought.
When I tell my child I'll love him forever, he has asked, "even when you die?" and I have told him yes. I tell him he will always carry my love with him, will always know he is loved, wherever he goes or I go, because it is that strong and enduring.
Kadia, this made me cry. It is so sweet.
Thank you all so much again.
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If that's not the most beautiful sentiment ever....wow. I printed it out so I'll always have it.
It made for a peaceful, serene tone to my day. Thanks, Otter!
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Crying at work, but they're cleansing tears. (That'll teach me to check this thread when I should be working!) <grin> Beautiful sentiments. Thank you all. I feel more peaceful now.
--Cindy
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Hello all - I've had a very stressful, busy few days, so I'm taking a break (this is like an old-fashioned "Smoke break") to read here, and it makes me happy. So many of you have said or quoted such intelligent, heart-felt, deep things.
About a person and their child and whether they will find you in heaven - did any of you follow after Zoe's death a few weeks ago, how she told her child that no matter what, there is a golden thread that connects them, forever, between their hearts. I think it was Apple who suggested turning that into a little story that could be printed - the golden thread. But I stopped following so am lost- maybe one of you have been there recently.
Oh yes, HH the Dalai Lama. A friend is currently in India and finally got to Dharmsala and it was rumored the he was to be somehere at some time so at 7am there's my friend at the gates and sure enough, out he comes, a bent-over figure with that goofy smile, dwarfed by his guards in tall hats. Now my friend is not a Buddhist but she went weak at the knees. Her trip was worth it. Why does he have that goofy simpleton-like grin? Because, despite Tibet, he is possibly one of the happiest people on earth. Why does he seem so humble - I mean, he cracks jokes about himeself then laughs himself silly? - because he has no ego. So this year for sure I'm stringing Tibetan prayer flags around the roll-out awning, so they can flutter in the wind and send out prayers. Prayers? but I'm an atheist, and so is the Dalai Lama. You could say that saying meta every day is a kind of prayer - the kind that shoots goodness, kindness, compassion out into the world.
I'm also an atheist - that is "a theist" a means negative, do not believe in a creator god. Yet Ive had experineces where, were a Xian, I would saygod talked to me, personally. I wrote about it here (please excuse for going on about it) and a very kind Xian person told me I was speaking with god. That's what her culture and upbringing made sense to say. At that time -decades ago - I thought that I had met my guardian angel. Then not long ago I studied Buddhism, and realized many people have had this experience - it is meeting the deepest, kindest, wisest, most compassionate parts of yourself, where you are unconditionally loved and in fact are rocked by the cradle of love, at the centre of the universe. I keep trying to understand - is this a natural part of the consciousness of the universe? Is this what carries on?
So I cannot discount anyone's actual experience, and this experience happens all the time all over the world, so you would say you had met god, or Siva, or the abominable snowman. But not everyone has this, so they take the words of others and misuse and distort and bingo - a religion starts. And has a rhetoric and rules and these people have some kind of team allegiance perhaps because it is too scary not too and we can't figure out why bad stuff happens so - we blame it on soembody - or rather, accept it from somebody - and who is more powerful than the big guy in the sky? So let's thank him! (or punish ourselves and those around us for doing wrong). but I do know my life was changed by my own experience, and I call it having tasted of my own buddha-nature. But you can call it anything you want.
Just a bit about pack mentality. A book was written a while back - sorry,no author or title comes to mind - about the differences between the Canadian and American minds/personality..whatever, and thing is , because you have a pack mentality you run with the TOP DOG, - except of course for you intelligent, thinking people who post here and the other intelligent ones who must be beyond dismayed...we Canucks have our own set of dumb behaviors, don't worry... .
Sunflowers - are we on the same page or something....? please tell me about the Jungian stuff you're reading. I'm ordering In Exile from the Land of Snows. And have you ever read Peter Matthiessen's the Snow Leopard? I'm ordering that one too, since mine got lost....and since we seem to be about the same vintage - how bout Astral Weeks, by Van Morrison? I think it saved me, during a horrible time in my 20's. I'm having Brown-eyed Girl played at my funeral
May you all feel peace today
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The Snow Leopard is wonderful. I have it in hardback for the house and paperback for my backpack. It's even better when read in the wilderness.
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http://www.cnn.com/2012/02/26/opinion/de-botton-religion-atheists/index.html?hpt=hp_bn9
Here is an article I read on CNN today. It talks about what Althea said about atheists finding what is really usable in religions without all the false Deity. We have all talked about this on this thread and seem to find the truely meaningful pieces to our minds and hearts. Thank you Otter for the beautiful poems. I had a very difficult night and total breakdown about a huge rift I had Saturday with my DS. I really felt like I should die to end the pain in my heart. Your poems gave me a hug today. Kitty
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