Is anyone else an atheist with BC besides me?
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Ever hear of the saying, "You can't judge a book by its cover"?
May I suggest that folks at least use the "Look Inside" feature of Amazon regarding the book, The Way Back to Paradise by Joseph M. Felser rather than jumping to conclusions?
Hope this link to Amazon's "Look Inside" feature works. If not, just go to Amazon, find the book, take a peak, and . . . :-)
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trickling,
People are people whether they are religious or not. Stalin was one mean atheist. Hitler was one mean Christian. (People dispute the latter, but one only has to read the Concordat or any of Hitler's works to know he was a believer.)
As for the Way Back to Paradise, I understand why you are enthusiastic about the book. When one runs across a work that speaks to the inner workings of ones own mind, then the need to share is compelling. Why don't you share what you find most moving about the book; how it is impacting your life?
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Looked at the book, but it doesn't resonate for me. Have been reading Jung for years, and years, and all the wonderful women who studied with him:Marie Louise vonFranz, Barbara Hannah, Helen Luke, Toni Wolf, Aneila Jaffe. Notice I prefer to read "source" than those interpretive works like this book. Also LOVE Robert Johnson's work - his auto/biography Balancing Heaven and Earth is fine.
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(I probably shouldn't be posting this, because it will probably feed a discussion we don't want here.)
Here's an interesting interview with the author of "The Way Back to Paradise." It explains the author's motives a bit more clearly than what you'll read in some of the on-line book reviews. http://www.pagannews.com/joef.shtml
Really, ... I'm not trying to find a way back to Paradise. Why would anyone assume atheists are searching for that path?
Unlike Felser, I'm not struggling to reconcile reason and myth, re:
"Reason wants answers, but magic opens us to the wonder of things. Magic leads us to ask the questions that reason aims to investigate. There's no real conflict. Reason and magic are partners. The sickness is that reason is trying to do the whole job by himself. He's forgotten that he has a partner. He's an answer addict, a control freak who's afraid of deep questions, of letting go and sharing power." (a statement he made as quoted in the interview)
If something can't be explained with science, I'm perfectly content to wait awhile. I don't need to attribute those unexplainables to anything, much less credit them to "magic".
I fail to see how using "magic" as a foundation is any different from using traditional religious tenets, except that "magic" may be more flexible -- there are fewer rules. IMHO, as an atheist, I'm no more likely to use "magic" as an explanation than I am to say Jesus was responsible. But, YMMV: some people seem to want to tie up loose ends, so "magic" may be an acceptable answer for them.
otter
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Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. Arthur C. Clarke.
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Yes, well... not very surprising, coming from the author of "2001: A Space Odyssey." Then, there's this, according to Sir Clarke's Wiki page:
"A famous quotation of Clarke's is often cited: 'One of the great tragedies of mankind is that morality has been hijacked by religion.'[71] He was quoted in Popular Science in 2004 as saying of religion: 'Most malevolent and persistent of all mind viruses. We should get rid of it as quick as we can.' "
I guess we can tell where he stood.
otter
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When my children used to ask questions I couldn't answer, often on matters of science, I would tell them "It's one of the mysteries of the universe". If they didn't like that, we'd find a book or ask a knowledgeable friend. Sometimes "magic" was my answer. On the question of "how does a microwave work", our knowledgeable friend agreed magic was as good an answer as his detailed scientific one.
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I do occasionally use "It's magic!" when responding to a question from my 5-year-old granddaughter. By my way of thinking, though, "It's magic" isn't a very satisfying answer among adults discussing life-and-death issues, much less science.
That's just me, though. As I said upstream, others might find "magic" a perfectly reasonable explanation for things they don't understand. Now, I'm going to magically disappear.
otter
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Ah, mystery. Wouldn't life be so boring without it.
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For sure!! My children all got fed up with my magic and mystery answers after a while and were receptive to help researching their questions. Now they each have at least one university degree earned while they looked for answers to their own questions. No one is bored!
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Altho I'm not an atheist or agnostic I certainly respect anyone's belief or non-belief in God. I was brought up Catholic, but I've strayed far from all religions--But there is one thing that has always bothered me---when someone says God won't give u more than u can handle----Oh please--so let's give ne person a miserable life and nother a great one--Igh The last time someone said this to me I really got annoyed aand just said then there would be no suicide---quiet no words were said. Altho I do believe in God I don't think I believe in the traditional God.
Now this is not scientific, but my Dad was an atheist and once when we were talking about near death experiences and how people see the light and then come back--My Dad told me it's because our bodies are made up of electricity and as it shuts down it's like an electric charge and u'r brain is witnessing it. Now I never looked it up this was many years ago so that's how he thought ----who knows I guess.
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When we had an ice storm a few years ago, the limbs of trees froze so quickly that they exploded releasing flashes of light.
One of the definitions of the word god is "that which is not yet known". All the fear and magic involved in religion is just a emotional response to the unknown.
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I've often pondered the god is that which is not yet known idea. It sure explains why science is so uncomfortable to many religious people...it keeps making god shrink.
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God of the Gaps Here's the history of this idea from Wikipedia.0
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Hi guys - I know this is not the place to ask questions about this but I just kinda need a fuzzy hug. So I'm 4 yrs out, had annual mammo on my "good" breast about a month ago, breast fine but 2 new lymph nodes were there towards armpit where they weren't weren't last year and one a smidge over the normal: 1.2 cm instead of 1cm.
So, call back (YUK) for ultrasound as they were wondering why the lymph actin up - is it fighting something?
us yesterday getting near the armpit upper outer breast area. Call back today for fine needle biospy as the us showed another lymph node at 1.5 cm. double YUK! thing is, I also had the rash from hell (neurodermatitis for about 9 months) in which every square inch of my body except my neack and head were at one time or another covered with insane itching volcanoes and I was in turn having to be covered with corticosteroid cream. it's all going away now. I had a group of about 10 whoppers on that breast in that area. red eruptions where I scratched them into volcanoes with black lava in the centre. ughgh
Over the phone, onc says could be a very good reason, but once on a trail the cancer centre has to follow each step.
I\m not entirely freaked - ie didn't double over screaming and running around the house - but still yuk, yuk, yuk. don't want to do research on internet, don't want to go to another thread for info, am going to hope the whopper eruptions with scabs had something to do with lymph glands in the same area. And just feel close to my non-theist sisters for a bit.
Arlene
ps it is exquisite here, red annual poppies the size of plates, purple and pink wild phlox, irises, siberian irises, lupins just starting, and pink wigelia - could hardly be more beautiful
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Hi there.. I wish I knew enough to help you, but be assured I am hoping it will all sort out and that I am sending vertual hugs. I am across the country from home and not very proficient on my little tablet. I cant't get the cursor to go where I can correct my spelling..
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Oh, Flannel - I am SO sorry you are having to go thru this - here's MY HUG, and fingers crossed for a BORING REPORT. My word, when I'm running around in circles screaming usually begins with a F, and has 4 letters. But, as this is such a sophisticated board, I'll bet I can get away with yelling phuque. Seriously - we are just NOT SUPPOSED to have these things to worry about.
AND THE WORRY IS THE WORST. Just wish there was something MAGICAL we could suggest for you to do, to make the WORRY go away while you're waiting. DO NOT DARE even think of looking for anything online - not allowed! I know we are all experts at being able to talk ourselves into anything when we're in WORRY MODE.
Let us know as soon as possible - my First line of defence is a really good book, mystery, crime, suspense, borderline trashy, just DO what you need to do, to keep your self moderately sane...
More Virtual hugs.....
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Flannellette,
I have had two biopsies since my original surgery. One was for a "funky" lymph node. The wait is no fun but it gave me time to think about things. Now I will think good things for you til your results come back. It's going to be OK.
{hugs}
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Thinking good thoughts for you, Flannelette.
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Flannelette...I am not much of a touchy feely kinda person, but I still want to send you a hug...((Flannelette))...The waiting and worrying just sucks...no 2 ways about it. Remember to eat yummy food, listen to cheering music and get plenty of sunshine...it makes the waiting just a little more tolerable... When is your biopsy? How long is the dreadful wait? Please keep us informed...
Wishing you all the best,
Claire
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Thanks for your kind and welcome notes, dear people, and your good advice. No, not going snooping on the net. My dear man & I each took a clonazapam (he gets more worried than I do) and we put our lounge chairs side by side on the deck with the awning rolled out and a lovely breeze, and fell asleep for a while late in the afternoon, first listening to the wind chimes and the birds. Now I feel just fine. Thanks Notself for mentioning your funky lymph & biopsies. Thanks all for your good thoughts and support. Love IS the opposite of fear.
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Flannel, I'd like to make a prediction. It's not worth anything, but here goes: I predict that the report on your node biopsy will say, "reactive lymph node," or maybe "lymphadenitis." Your rash-from-h*ll with its volcanic eruptions would be the most likely explanation for those enlarged nodes. Back pre-BC when I wasn't nearly as careful with my at-risk arm, I used to wander our fields and woods and end up with horrid chigger bites.
Chiggers are teeny tiny mites that aren't supposed to bite people but sometimes they do; and I'm intensely allergic to their bites. I develop itchy red welts where they bite. If I get enough bites (I counted 52 at one time once), the lymph nodes responsible for those body regions would swell up. So, axillary nodes, inguinal nodes, popliteal nodes, ... a real anatomy lesson. It took awhile, but once the itchy bites were gone, the lymph node swelling would disappear. Those nodes were doing what they were supposed to do.
So, do not freak. A wise person told me once that the outcome won't be any different if you worry about it in the meantime. It didn't help me (I worried anyway), but it did make sense.
Now, the real question is, what's causing your rash?
otter
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Adding my hugs to the pile, Flannelette. I am with Otter on the worry thing--didn't we recently discuss Michael J Fox's statement about worrying before you know just makes you suffer twice? Good advice I think.
I have also had a biopsy post treatment--a stereotactic one and then a surgical one. They really do monitor the heck out of you after you have diagnosis.
Watched part of an amazing PBS program last night about discoveries in the last decade of new life forms as well as most of another program about venomous animals, the complexity of their venom and how some venoms may hold the key to cancer treatment. Affirmed my belief in the wonder of the universe, did nothing to make me believe there is a god behind it all.
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I'm with otter too - I think The Rash is at the base of all this - amazing how our bodies are built to FIGHT these invaders.
BTW - the last time I had really bad "swollen glands" was years ago, couldn't figure out why, didn't "hurt" anyplace, went to Dentist for regular 6 month cleaning, and it was "time" to take the every two year x-rays - BINGO! I had an infection in the root of a tooth, that the doc could NOT believe was not causing me pain. Root canal, and the wonderful doc's PRomise to rename the procedure, something like Two Martinis - a few days, lymph nodes back to normal.
Ah, those days when we didn't even THINK of bc. Still, I was surprised at how vicious a silly little tooth root infection could be. And waht warriors we have in our immune systems.
Lovely to think of the 2 of you in your lounge chairs, and remember:
F = fantasy
E= expectations
A= appearing
R= real
Michal J. Fox is so wonderful too.
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Here are some questions that are seldom answered and never well by believers when they are not allowed to quote the bible.
If the universe had an origin, what makes you think there is only one cause?
If the universe had on cause, what makes you think the cause was a god?
If the cause was a god, what was the cause of this being?
If the being did not have a cause, then why do you think the universe needs a cause?
I could go on with these types of question, but I think you get my drift. The whole of religion is an invention to give answers and meaning to existence and death. I am comfortable in not knowing whether there is any meaning or all phenomena is beautifully random.
This is a 2000 year old poem that explains what I mean.
No doer of the deeds is found,
No one who ever reaps their fruits,
Empty phenomena roll on,
This view alone is right and true.
No god, no Brahma, may be called,
The maker of this wheel of life,
Empty phenomena roll on,
Dependent on conditions all." --- Visuddhimagga XIX0 -
Jumping on the hug pile for you Flannel. Hope it is all uneventful and simply annoying and you can get back to the lounge chair and relax! I too am voting on the rash being the culprit.
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oooohhhh...notself, I LOVED that post...
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I deleted it because a post on another subject popped up and my post seemed strange. Here is the full poem from the Buddhist Commentaries. One can note that not only do Buddhists not believe in a god, they do not believe in an eternal soul nor in a independent self. Our concept of self is a construct of our minds that assists us in responding to conditions.
"Mere suffering is, not any sufferer is found
The deeds exist, but no performer of the deeds:
Nibbana is, but not the one who enters it,
The path is, but no wanderer is to be seen.
No doer of the deeds is found,
No one who ever reaps their fruits,
Empty phenomena roll on,
This view alone is right and true.
No god, no Brahma, may be called,
The maker of this wheel of life,
Empty phenomena roll on,
Dependent on conditions all." --- Visuddhimagga XIX0 -
Hi dear atheists - I lapped up every one of your posts. Interestingly enough, today, in the mail, I got a letter from the cancer centre asking me to report to our one and only dermatologist who it normally takes 10!!! months to see. mid-July. have no idea how this came about, other than I have been telling my onc over the phone more about the neurodermatitis - have seen 2 dermatologists about it and the best tretment was swimming in the Caribbean twice a day for a week. it's going away.
I liked this letter. to my opportunist mind it means I can revise my inner list so things like, say, lymphoma, (which the onc did mention as being on the list but way down, way after inflammation and infection) are indeed at the bottom. Your very rational and caring posts ( thanks for the lymph node lesson Otter) - have been wonderful.
I've never really felt in emotional need since joining here, just complaints about arimidex - and on my very first try you have uplifted and warmed me though and through. Your intelligence and goodness shine through. Thank you and have sweet dreams all.
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Flannelette, haven't checked in in ages and then just now for the first time in over a month, I check in to find that you are having to wait the wait. But I second what everyone has said above and believe that the most obvious cause of the lymph node enlargement is the skin rash. Therefore very good that you are going to see another dermatologist and BEST BEST BEST thoughts and wishes coming your way from the Med. If I could sew I'd rustle up a beautiful soft and comforting nightdress for you ha ha ha
Notself great poem... I thought of the more spiritual/mystical amongst you last week on a trip to Istanbul. (Amazing city full of history and culture and civilisation). Well, the 13th century poet Rumi, who a couple of you might have quoted from/referred to some while back, was the founder of the so-called whirling dervishes, and there is a sufi (mystical sect of Sunni moslems) lodge in Istanbul called the Mevlevileri which follows Rumi's teachings. He was very influenced by Eastern teachings and the dervish ceremony, called the Sema, is a ceremony where members of the lodge (all men unfortunately!) turn round in circles to beautiful haunting live music consisting mainly of reed flutes, ouds and drum. This swirling is meant to induce the negation of the self and the achievement of a state of rapture or ecstasy. I attended a ceremony and found it fascinating, although I am not a believer.
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