Is anyone else an atheist with BC besides me?
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=al5ZuZ6_b0I&feature=relatedHere is a link to a whilrling dervish.... specially for Flannelette. No offence meant to anyone, I'm not suggesting any of us convert believe me!
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Maria
I love Rumi, or that is the Coleman Barks translations, haven't read any others...the Illustrated Rumi's are beautiful too.
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Hello Sunflowers
Nice to 'see' you. I've read a few poems also translated by Coleman Barks, but hadn't heard about the illustrated ones. Will look them up, thanks. 0 -
Two volumes of The Illustrated Rumi, just lovely. I find them almost "meditative" - for a lazy person like me who just doesn't do the "regular" meditation anymore - except when I'm gardening.
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There are times when I wish I could be a believer. Believers seem to get comfort from those beliefs. I just personally believe there is no way to put religion and science together. Someone said to me, look around at all the wonders and glories God created. That was funny because if you REALLY look at this world there is WAY more suffering and horror - famine, flood, starvation, disease.....Does a "loving" god do that to teach people lessons? To punish? No too loving in my opinion. Same with the idea of hell. Would a loving god be so unforgiving. I don't want to believe in something like that. Besides, even if there is something to this " higher power" thing, religion dosen't compute. More people have died in its name. Much evil stems from it. You can be an athiest and be a truly good person though religious folks will dispute that.
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Absolutely bevg49...... religion does not appear to make anyone behave better... in many cases it does the contrary and encourages intolerance and exclusion.
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Maria - funny you should say that! I have taken up reading the bible as an exercise of intellectual curiousity. So far I'm only at Leviticus but intolerance and exclusion seem to be the theme.
The story of Noah is an example. God gets made at everyone else, intolerant of their behaviour. So he tells Noah that he's the chosen one, everyone else is excluded and will be drowned. All Noah has to do is build the ark, find pairs of certain animals and he gets to be saved with his family. Contrary to the lovely pictures of pairs of animals on the boat, it's a pretty horrific story. Noah didn't even warn any of his friends or neighbours, just let them drown too.
And the rainbow was to be a reminder that he wouldn't do it again - except there are many more examples of people being killed off for breaking what sometimes appear to be arbitrary rules. It's an interesting and really quite disturbing read.
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The story that always bothered me the worst was also in the old testament. A prophet (Ezekiel???, but my memory doesn't work anymore, and I don't really think that's right...) anyway, some boys were laughing at him and calling him names. So he called down the wrath of God on them and bears came and ate the boys. I always thought that was pretty mean for a little nasty boyish prank....
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In both the story of Noah and the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, both the "guilty" and the innocent were killed. How could animals sin? Yet, millions of animals, insects, birds and fish died in the flood. If it did in fact rain enough to cover the mountains, then all salt water fish would have drowned. This is a story of not only a cruel god but a very sadistic god. Those who believe the bible is absolutely true have no explanation on why we have salt water fish today without resorting to evolution which makes their tiny brains spin. Even as a morality story, it is a cruel one.
In the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, innocent babies, children and even the unborn were killed. Again, we have a nasty sadistic god. As for Leviticus, that book is the rantings of a very sick mind. Those who quote it in support of hatred of homosexuality seem to ignore entire parts of it when it is convenient. No one rails that those who do not keep the Sabbath should be stoned. People who hate homosexuals have no trouble eating shell fish. One would think that if believers were to take the bible at its word, then there wouldn't be a Red Lobster Restaurant.
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Yes - I just noticed that part about fish without fins or scales and wondered about lobster and shrimp etc. Some religions kept the part about pork. There are bits about health care as well which actually make some sense like the one about a person with a rash has to be kept in quarantine for some days. It's not just stoning, it's death for not keeping the Sabbath. How do the people who shop at Walmart on Sunday justify that?! In the Sodom and Gomorrah story, Lot apparently was asked if he would provide some of his soldiers (men, of course) for sexual purposes. He declined and offered them some virgin daughters instead. That latter part wasn't a sin, and the city people didn't even get what they were asking for.
I haven't found anything about homosexuality in Leviticus (yet), but a lot about how to sacrifice animals that usually aren't eaten. That seems quite wasteful to me.
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It's a primitive god that requires blood sacrifice even to the extent that his own blood (Jesus as god) must be spilled to please the god. Sadomasochism?
When I read the bible cover to cover, including footnotes, I couldn't take religions seriously again. It turns out that atheists as a group know more about religious belief than many believers do. It makes me wonder if people attend church and profess belief out of cultural habit more than conviction.
http://www.pewforum.org/U-S-Religious-Knowledge-Survey.aspx
Take the quiz
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took the quiz - it was interesting. I got 14 out of 15 right - missed the last one....
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Re: "There are times when I wish I could be a believer. Believers seem to get comfort from those beliefs." (Bevg)
I've thought that, too. My daughter-in-law had a miscarriage at 16 wks of pregnancy earlier this year, and I think her deep religious beliefs helped her deal with the emotional blow. Her 5-year-old daughter knew they were expecting a baby brother; I have no doubt the family's religious beliefs helped them work through the details (in a broad-brush manner) and the sadness.
OTOH, I think deeply held religious beliefs can backfire. As many here know, my mom died last year from a terrible fall on an icy sidewalk at her home. The fall and head injury would have been bad enough (the head injury was "unrecoverable"), but she fell on the sidewalk in her back yard, which was shielded from anyone's direct view. That was the tragic part -- she lay in the ice and snow for more than 8 hours before a neighbor found her there, barely conscious. Her neighbors knew that she preferred privacy, so no one stopped to "bother" her -- i.e., check on her -- until suppertime when someone noticed the lights were still off in her house.
The neighbors who found her lying on the icy sidewalk were old, dear friends, and deeply religious people. I was told by my parents' minister (who, coincidentally, is also the friends' minister) that those neighbors were having a terrible time dealing with my mom's accident and death. They blamed themselves for not having checked on my mom sooner, or somehow prevented the accident from happening.
Someone with their strong religious beliefs -- someone who typically credits complex, uncontrollable events to a supreme being -- would wonder why a caring god would allow something like that to happen. Why wouldn't he intervene? Why wouldn't he signal that my mom was in trouble and direct someone there to help her?
I can accept that it was just a horrible accident. It was no one's fault. Really awful things happen sometimes, despite all our efforts. I live 18+ hours away, by car; I learned long ago that I could not control what my mom did and could not prevent bad things from occurring. We are not marionettes; our lives are not choreographed from afar.
I much prefer it this way.
otter
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Took the quiz. Perfect score. Not bad for a heathen, eh?
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It's strange the number of Catholics that did not know that their communion host and wine was supposed to be transformed into the actual body and blood of Jesus. You would have thought they would know that much about their religion. (More blood sacrifice) Shakes head0
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Notself. I've noticed that same thing myself and don't understand it, especially when conflict over that belief in transformation (or not) sent so many to the stake to be burned. Of course I've been told by many "very religious" people I know that my knowledge of religion and the bible might be better than theirs. I had that conversation with my child once-- transformation vs the host as a symbol and burning people at the stake for it. I got a look pretty much like it deserved.
I haven't been around much so hope all are well. Needed to get this off my chest tonight to the group I knew who would get it. Someone near and dear to me is in hospice right now. I was talking to a family member tonight that was talking about how comforting it has been to a couple of other family members to have found religion recently that they "know her friends, parents, etc are waiting for her as soon as she crosses over." I just said I'm so happy they have that comfort. And I am happy for them. But, that is so not me. I don't believe that and just consider it an end and that thought grieves me.
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kmmd - just consider it an end and that thought grieves me. yes,it' so much more comforting to make up the fiction that all are waiting on the other side - are the pets waiting? the grasshoppers from the garden waiting? where was the point in our evolution that set us apart, I wonder? I'm sorry for your impending loss. If only we could just grasp that we are, as not-self's earlier poem implied, nothing but changing forms of energy - a process - but that is so very hard for us to understand or accept as all appearances are to the contrary.
A few hours ago i came upon this quote by Alan Watts: We do not "come into" this world; we come out of it,as leaves from a tree. As the ocean "waves", the universe "peoples". Every individual is an expression of the whole realm of nature, a unique action of the total universe." that's a very nice way of saying something in which I've believed for maybe past 15 years or so...that's what I so like about Taoism..
We could have appeared as a bee, as a tree, but we came out as people - so amazing, because we get to be conscious of the universe of which we are part, and so very difficult, because we just ride the crest of the latest wave for a brief minute.
Nothing in our society teaches us what to do about it - except perhaps make up a fictional other side, to which some people cling, despite Leviticus and all that barbarity. I just read The Girl with the Dragon Tatoo, long after everyone else read it, so the earlier posts about Leviticus and all that babarity came to mind. such pathetic grasping for "purity" to appease an apparently cruel god. might as well worship the sun as did the Incas (am I wrong here?) and chop off heads day in day out and throw them down the pyramid stairs! right up there with burning witches.Come to think of it, I think perhaps the greater part of adhereing to a religion is culturally determined by whoever holds the biggest club and wants the most power.
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Some may not be familiar with the Tao Te Ching (dow day jing). It is a very short text yet one of the most translated in the world. Here is a link to an excellent translation and below is the first chapter. Taoism like Buddhism has no creator god. http://www.thebigview.com/download/tao-te-ching-illustrated.pdf
The Tao that can be told is not the
eternal Tao.
The name that can be named is not the
eternal name.
The nameless is the beginning of
heaven and Earth.
The named is the mother of the ten
thousand things.
Ever desireless, one can see the
mystery.
Ever desiring, one sees the
manifestations.
These two spring from the same source
but differ in name; this appears as
darkness.
Darkness within darkness.
The gate to all mystery.
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Thanks you guys.
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kmmd - I hope your 'near and dear' has a very peaceful transition. No words for what I feel, as I get older, and older, I accept and welcome mystery, "not knowing" - so I can't say whether I feel it is "an end" or "not an end." Certainly my own life is very, sometimes more saddness than I think I can express different, when an person important to me dies. It doesn't tell me anything about what death is. Only how much the change can hurt when an important person in my life isn't in my day-to-day life anymore.
In recent years, again can't explain, but notice experiencing that grief, and being able to separate my not knowing, still not having any sense of anything about what we call death is or isn't.
kmmd - I hope you find the way to give yourself the most comfort, and healing, during such a difficult time for you.
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Thanks Sunflowers, you said it well
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Yes, you did, Sunflowers. a kind and honest post to kmmd. And thank you for the whilring dervish - I didn't know that rumi founded them, and would love to read more by him and know more about him. The whirling was so calming - I'm drawn to circles - even watching the bread machine go round and round.
Notself - yes that was an especially lovely translation. this one is by Arthur Whaley, and I found it sort of clunky, but when you read the two, for me at least they somewhat clarify each other.
The Way that can be told of is not an Unvarying Way;
The names that can be named are not unvarying names.
It was from the Nameless that Heaven and Earth sprang;
The named is but the mother that rears the ten thousand creatures, each after its own kind.
Truly, "Only he that rids himself forever of desire can see the Secret Essences";
He that has never rid himself of desire can see only the Outcomes.
These two things issued from the same mould, but nevertheless are different in name.
This "same mould" we can but call the Mystery,
Or rather the "Darker than any Mystery",
The Doorway whence issued all Secret Essences.
Today I met a woman who had breast cancer, lymphoma, and pancreatic cancer, all at once. the doctor advised her to get her affairs in order as there was pretty much no hope especially for the pancreatic cancer. and 3 together? She had no treatments - she went to a healer, which she had to go on quite a trail to find. He did his thing - energy with his hands, that didn't touch her, and when she went for the next scans, no evidence of disease. the doctors had to claim it was a misdiagnosis. I would call that a gift from the universe. she was a charismatic and seemingly very aware and intuitive person -! it was a very interesting and totally unexpected meeting, but when they call me for my fine needle biopsy, I'm going!
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The mind body connection is a mystery. Perhaps it was a misdiagnosis. Perhaps it was partially a misdiagnosis and partially a spontaneous healing and partially the mind body connection. Nothing is ever simple.
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I just want to say that I really appreciate all of you. That's it from me today.
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The Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life has some interesting statistics on non-believers. Not all those who do not believe in a god or universal spirit call themselves atheists. Some 14% of non-believers also consider themselves Christians. 10% are affiliated with other religions. Of course, this last number includes Buddhists, Taoists and Confucianists who are by definition agnostic or atheist.
http://www.pewforum.org/Not-All-Nonbelievers-Call-Themselves-Atheists.aspx
Overall, 5% of the American people are admitted non-believers according to the US Religious Landscape Survey taken in 2008. It is interesting reading.
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very interesting notself---thanks for posting!0
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UP AGAINST IT, MY DEARS
so, my friends, i've been though mammogram, ultrasound, fine needle biopsy on a few lymph glands - and they just called. To tell me I need an MRI of the breast (which as perfect in the mammo) a cat scan, a bone scan, and a core or excisional biospy, because something is not looking good but they can't yet make a diagnosis. and here I thought I was the luckiest person in the world. so is this a whole new one, or might I be stage 4. I took 2 clonazapams and cried. Well, my gift from the universe lasted 4 years, and maybe, hopefully, it's not over.
I'd rather tell the people here than elsewhere on the board.
Arlene
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Arlene, I'm sending warm thoughts your way. I'm sorry to hear that you're going through this and still hope that it turns out to be nothing or something easily addressed.
Breathe, Hugs
Edited to remove unneeded information.
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Hugs to you Arlene. I hope for the best for you and that it is something easily dealt with. Hang in there and know that you're being thought of by us all here. Please let us know things as they come to light.
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okay, flannel, now comes the REALLY HARD PART which we know right now,
is that the ONLY THING we know, is that WE DON'T KNOW. OUCH. OUCH. Hardest part, worse than physical pain ( IMHO)
whew. what a hideous time. waiting. and worrying. but we know, we know, as much as we say "we will not worry until we have to" HA, right. I used to have a magnet on my fridge: "Worry is like a rocking chair, it keeps you busy but doesn't get you anywhere."
I happen to LOVE rocking chairs, but you know, the only thing to do now, is keep as BUSY as you can doing what you LOVE and wait.
Joining all in holding your hands, and hoping the Benevolent Universe is shining on you...
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