Is anyone else an atheist with BC besides me?
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Around here, we just make sure there isn't a big audience...for crying out loud, it's just ashes! Hope you're all having as good of a day/weekend as I am...good friends coming over for bbq ribs...kayaking with another friend tomorrow...and Monday off while my SO works...aaah, sweet solitude!!
Hugs all around...
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btw...I too agree we should leave the thread where it is, but just keep it bumped for the newcomers...
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Layne,
This is what the Hindu religion says about souls. Interesting....
"The individual soul can never die but must constantly be reborn. A human soul evolves gradually from lower forms, starting with minerals and vegetables, then progressing upward through lower animals and then higher animals before attaining the human state. This state, highest of all, is the only one that allows escape from the everlasting round of births and deaths. When the soul can eliminate desire and become aware of the unity of the self with Brahman, rebirth will cease. This is not the end of being, but perfect bliss. All will attain it in time."
"After the required time in hell, the soul returns to earth in a lowlier status than before. If its crimes were serious, it is sent back to be reincarnated as a worm, insect, cockroach, rat, or bird. If it has committed a crime causing defilement, it returns as an untouchable. If it has been a criminal of the worst sort, it must return as a plant."
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Regarding souls: This is a strictly human interpretation of what makes each of us unique, IMO. Its equivalent may be the "heart" which humans equate with love or loving. As we know the two have nothing to do with each other! But "heart" and "soul" are so much a part of our language (and a great song too, one to which every budding pianist aspires to play!)
But as for the new souls and old souls, to me this is where the rationality of any religion falls apart. Ah, but then who is to suggest anything about man-made religion is rational???!! Dawnn's dd's poster says it all......!
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about taking ashes in to Canada ... here's where "don't ask, don't tell" really applies.
Dawn = love the story & the picture.
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I wouldn't mind returning as a plant - just think what patience and tolerance you would learn as a redwood tree....
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re: being a plant.
How about hell on Earth? Imagine being a huge ancient oak tree, you have been trapped within it's branches for centuries. Birds have come and built nests, raised young and have flown off no longer needing your shelter.
Or children coming & going, sitting in your shade or swinging on a tire swing...
If the tree had the same level of consciousness as we do, how sad & lonely would it be not to be able to vocalize how much you missed the children, or how long winter after winter would be waiting for the birds to reappear each Spring?
I ramble; Science explains deja vu' as a brain misfire. They say that they brain mixes up signals and views a new experience as a memory. I'd buy that if I hadn't seen things I could not have seen or dreamt things and then told others the dreams, only for it to actually happens, days, weeks or months later.
So, the brain misfire doesn't set well with me, sorry science....try again.
I think souls are more of a energy field than straight matter, and as with any energy, it may disapate...like a lightning strike to the ground...but it continues on always..where & how?
Oh, if you all get bored & want to see me & my family here is my Myspace page...
http://profile.myspace.com/dawnsamples
Happy Sunday, all.
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I think the "soul" is a human invention ..we do have a heart, brain, and an energy force that
is life...
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I think the soul is conscious of being. That's the only difference between us and the animal kingdom.
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I love your question and it is a good one.
I am an atheist by default I guess, but I still have a little sliver of "not sure". I get my strength and faith from nature and the beauty of it all. I hope the wild world will somehow survive our 7 billion by count human assault.
But really, nothing is wasted. Whether you have a faith or not, nothing is wasted.
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We are the animal kingdom.
As far as 'conscious of being"....my 3 year old African Grey parrot, Ruka, looks in a mirror and will wipe food off of her beak. She knows it is her reflection, she also speaks with direct purpose.
Not a mimic, with purpose.
As an example;
"Ruka want out now".
I reply, No, Ruka, the dog will eat you, stay in your cage.
Ruka replies "Ruka want out, bad dog in cage, hurry! Bad dog in cage."
Now, the bad dog doesn't have a cage, she has a kennel, Ruka puts these things together on her own. When I put a plate of Cornish game hens on the dinner table a few weeks ago. Ruka SCREAMED!!
"OH NO!! FRITO!! OH NO!!"
Frito is my other parrot. Who was in my daughter's room at the time.
Now, was Ruka being funny? Or had she actually connected the small bird carcass to being a dead bird, a bird that she is rather good friends with?
On a side note, Ruka ate the drumstick bone with NO issues at all.
But, chickens eat chicken & eggs, so I guess it's all the same.
A great example of Ruka being a mimic would be her screaming "Hurry! Hide! The Mormons are here! The Mormons are here!"
She says it everytime they walk up to the front door.
She also says "I'm pooping!" everytime she hears a toilet flush.
Does she have the ability to understand that I could die someday? No.
She certainly does not understand death, most young children do not.
I do believe that animals experience fear, pain and loneliness.
I believe that they develop deep bonds with their humans and would risk their own lives to protect us.
My dog, she is retired now...she served 3 tours of duty in Iraq.
She would die for me, no questions asked, is that because she was trained to do so, or because she is actually protecting me out of love & loyalty?
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I believe it is instinctual. I agree we are, biologically, part of the animal kingdom. Our soul would be considered part of spirituality, therein lies the difference. I have a dog that I treat better than I treat my children, but although she has a loving character, I can't quite say she has the conscious of being. All her actions or reactions are instinctual. Does a dog or a bird ask itself if it really exists?
Now on an evolutionary scale, are we above the animal kingdom, or are they above us? We kill our own kind, we hunt for no reason.......do they? We take more than we need. We are greedy....are they? Maybe having a soul is not such a good idea eh?
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Guitargrl -- that's exactly what I was thinking!
Dawnn -- you have such interesting feathered children!! Ruka is hilarious.
Re. souls -- Cats sometimes hunt for fun -- they sometimes play with a mouse and not eat it later. Meerkats will kill the litters of their family group (I love Meerkat Manor!). A lot of human actions are partially (mostly?) instinctual -- to protect the tribe/loved ones. I think a lot of animals have a consciousness of "self".
But then, my view of the soul is biochemical. Of course I could be very wrong.
And, if I were to come back as a non-human, it would be as duck, a mallard duck in particular. The reason -- I think it would be cool to be able to walk, swim, and fly. Another thought I've kept since childhood. I am so weird!!
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the being that seems to last through all kinds of ages is the cockroach
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LOL! Good one socal. They are invincible.
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The debate over animal consciousness will be as long and distinguished as the debate over god. It is hard to find two experts who even agree on what makes one conscious. I've heard play is an indication. Really? I have seen mice play. Self recognition? An ape touching its own nose in a mirror?
As far as evolution, well, in the relatively short time frame we have been on Earth, we have made great leaps and bounds. I have no doubt that humans as a species will cause their own doom.
Our oceans are dying, the land is toxic, the ozone is drifting away. WE have destroyed our little blue planet. Out of arrogance or just stupidity, who knows....
I would like to die knowing my children's children will breathe fresh air, have a garden to grow vegetables in...swim in a ocean that doesn't burn their skin....
This planet was a evolutionary masterpiece. We as a species destroyed it.
If the people praying to god want to save an entire species instead of just a chosen few, they need to ask god to pop up another Earth, 'cause this one is toast.
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"If the tree had the same level of consciousness as we do, how sad & lonely would it be not to be able to vocalize how much you missed the children, or how long winter after winter would be waiting for the birds to reappear each Spring?"
Yes, but that assumes that the tree does not communicate. Perhaps they do, just not in a way we can understand or detect. Again, perhaps they do not. Perhaps that does not bother them.
The summer's flower is to the summer sweet,
Though to itself, it only live and die, (shakespeare, sonnet 94)0 -
Maybe the oak tree would think "Am I glad those little jumpy humans are gone, and thank goodness I've pumped out the acorns for this year. Now if I can just get rid of these dang stale leaves and if the pesky squirrels will settle down I can pull my sap in and rest for the winter."
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And leaf goes to a depth of thought that slipped right past me. Since they are making these souls be a plant as a punishment, I am going to guess that they can't communicate, as part of the punishment. Then, when they come back as a more complex life form, say a dog, they will appreciate the ability they have to show their love.
If I have learned anything in this life it is NEVER assume.
Not sure if it is irony or not, but my kids are watching The Happening, you know, the movie where the plants get mad & kill everyone.
Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy just went off & I have that "So long & thanks for all the fish" song stuck in my head.
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I go away for a few days and come back to lots of interesting discussion!
I am still filled with awe and wonder at the beauty of the coast. I'm going to try and post a pic here, we'll see if it works.
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Well the photo thing didn't work. If anyone can enlighten me I would appreciate it!
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Hi, Alex. Glad you had a great trip. Do you have your pics uploaded to Photobucket?
That is the only way I know how to do it. Maybe someone who is more computer minded can help. Or you can email me the pic & I can post it for you.
I will PM you my email addy, just in case you don't figure it out.
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I am going to post 3 pics for 2acdmom....
I can't get them to post all 3 at once.
Alex you will have to tell everyone what they are ok?
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Thank you, thank you! That first one is the beautiful beach at Anchor Bay, CA. To get to it, you go down 114 stairs. It was a challenge for this estrogen-deprived body to get down and up the first time, but it got better after doing it a few times.
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This one was taken driving up Route 1 from Anchor Bay to Point Arena...
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Well, I tried, it is giving me a hard time with errors & red X's...but here they are 3 of them.
Just beautiful, Alex!
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The last one is the view from the top of those 114 stairs down to the beach.
Dawnn, thank you so much for posting these!
I hadn't been up there since fall 2003, a year before I was diagnosed. I have to say, I got all teary-eyed when I drove over that last rise and saw the ocean spreading out in front of me.
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don't you just love the coast!
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I'd live there if (a) I could figure out a way to make a living, and (b) there was decent medical care available. Unfortunately, neither of those things is likely to become reality any time soon...
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