Can we have a forum for "older" people with bc?
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Morning gals!Regbeach, good to hear from you again...but just wanted to talk about your Mom...Like my Grandma, when I was trying to take care of her.... YOU are the one in charge.... and honey, I wouldn't try and make her do something she isn't "sure-of" or is afraid. I know we want to do the best for them, but sometimes we just don't "KNOW" what is best.And of course our Team, wants to do all they can to keep us from getting cancer again. But our age plays an important part in this, AND your Mom's other problems.And I'm sorry, did your Mom have the surgery yet? (I think I remember she did... a Lumpectomy?) Do they know what grade or stage it is? Or is the chemo FIRST and then the surgery?The final path report after the surgery is the best guide for any other decisions. Then the Onco test would help deciding if we NEED chemo, or if the numbers are low enough, not to even bother.I was advised to have chemo by one oncologist, because my number was 19... "low-intermediate".... But because of my age at the time, 73, and along with my grade and type and stage, my Radiologist AND surgeon thought "no" I didn't need chemo.I still went ahead with Tamoxifen... Took it for 1 1/2 years, then went deaf. This would not happen to a LOT of women, but it IS a type of chemo drug, and it did not work with me, again, because I am older I think. I mean I KNOW I am older,
but there are a lot of reasons I could have woke up one morning and could not been able hear out of my left ear.... But I blame it on the Tamoxifen. About a week later, my right ear lost 50%. So BOTH ears within a week, made it easy for me to blame the Tamoxifen.
Your Mom is terrified of the chemo... she is afraid of everything right now. I wouldn't make, or try and persuade my Grandma to do that. She was almost 84, and had dementia, so I was TRYing to do what was "best for her"..... I was all she had, like you are for your Mom.If the chemo is a sure-thing, to make her live longer, IF her final-path report says she is a high-stage, and IF the onco type test shows her cancer NEEDS chemo, then you can think about it again....Sometimes our Doctors only look at their patient, and what else they can do for them... but WE have to decide what WE think is best for them also, because we LOVE them, and don't want to put them in any more pain than they are.One time I finally told the Doctor, "NO more tests and procedures for her...she doesn't know what you are doing, nor why, and she doesn't even know why we are HERE." She was so confused, and it made me cry. So we stopped at McDonalds and we had a hamburger.She is like your Daughter now, and depends on you, to take care of her, and protect her from anything she doesn't like.... So I would just listen to your heart...and to her.Also your BF is a D-head! He is very inconsiderate, and just doesn't give a damn about you enough to HELP you through this, when you need him the most. I would give my self some distance from this guy. He's there when he wants you, but not with any problems!Just let it cool down for awhile.... You have enough to worry about with your Mom.And I know about praying for something, and then we "see" something and just know that is a sign! And yes, sometimes it is, or we want to believe something so BAD, that we will take that as a sign, that our prayers have been answered....Something about that "chemotherapeutic "waste" sign scares me... Think about that too, little one....Glad you "talked" to us.... just hope you feel better! xoxoxo0 -
Reg, I really feel for you. I agree with Chevy about your man friend. He does not sound like a "keeper." Of course, I guess we would have to hear the story from his point of view, to be fair.
What is your mother's diagnosis as far as recovering from the stroke? Does her dr. expect her to regain speech? Is her cognitive functioning impaired?
My mother is 90 yrs. old, much older than your mom, but she stopped having mammograms 4 yrs ago when I had my bilateral mx. She and I agreed that if she were dx'ed with bc, she wouldn't have surgery. At this point the only treatment she will have for any ailment is medication that will make her feel better.
It would be so much better if your mother could express her preference in the chemo or no chemo debate.
I go for my annual checkup with my BC dr. next week. Actually I usually see her nurse practitioner who does an ultrasound on my underarms and chest. I intend to discuss with her not taking arimidex for another year, which would be my 5th year. My oncotype no. was 9, very low. There was no node involvement and I had the bmx. I just have to wonder if another year on arimidex is necessary or is 5 yrs just the standard procedure.
I would like to stop arimidex and see if my blood pressure and high cholesterol problems go away. Maybe arimidex isn't the culprit.
I know Heather, the NP, will not approve of stopping before the 5 yrs. are up.
My neighbor Rodney was telling us Friday night that his mother has amazed her cancer drs. at MD Andersen. She has pancreatic cancer and was supposed to be dead 6 months ago. Instead she is going strong, taking care of her husband, who is healthy but is senile. Doctors do their best but they don't know everything about how humans can deal with disease.
We don't do a lot down here on Memorial Day. A lot of employed people work today because they get time off for Mardi Gras. I plan to spray some Roundup this morning and go walk around the shops this afternoon. I'm looking for a couple of pairs of cropped pants, which we used to call pedal pushers when I was young!
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I should add that my neighbor's mother had chemo for her pancreatic cancer. I don't remember if she had radiation, too.
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Chevyboy,
Thanks for your thoughts. Yes, mom had lumpectomy, clear margins, 0/8 nodes clear, 2.7 cm, Grade 3, triple negative. Onco test is not applicable since triple negative. So, we know its "aggressive". Chemo just lowers the chances of it recurring/becoming a problem somewhere in the body. The stats are of course averages but for her type of cancer...for someone in "fair health" (which just increases the chances you might die from something other than cancer first), in 10 yrs. 28 people will have died from cancer, with chemo it drops to 19. 20 some people will die from something else. If good health, I imagine the computer would say more die from cancer because they didn't die "from something else."
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Regbeach....Can I add that I am sorry too for all that you have had to endure. I'm so glad Chevy came in here. She has the gift of being able to separate parts out of your entries and responds so well to them.
My feeling is that you got into the middle of a good Old meltdown. Too many things piling up on your plate at once and your bf not GETTING that so much of life is devoted to each significant other doing a balancing act when needed being the Rock of Gibraltar. He was AWOL when you needed a rock to lean on.
As to your Mom.....it is very tough. I guess I would go back to thinking.......how long might she live in general? How is the prognosis on that level just taking in the consideration of the stroke and its related issues? Then factor in the cancer diagnosis and what can be done with that?????
I know Chevy is very right about what the Dr's. say. For the most part, I think most of them will go into recommending everything that will give the highest opportunity to get someone to NED. I hope that perhaps one of more of them consulted for a bit with your moms' heart/stroke Dr. before they made their recommendation.
It still comes pretty much back down to you. You have been pretty much forced into the ( knowing you love your mother and are ok about it ) role of care-giver/decision-maker. I do believe in signs and I do believe that somewhere in our soul we know the right thing. It is just often hard to have faith about the right thing when there are so many factors involved.
If you have to.....just make another list of pros and cons and hope the numbers are not too close -- just to help you assess. I think the important thing is to do what will give your Mom the most comfort and health for the longest period of time. I would likely want my Mom to do it, but then I have experienced cancer and am speaking from that vantage point. Also my Mom made very viable health decisions with her full faculties very much in tact.
Just saying here that there are many perspectives and I hope we have eased the way somewhat. I know 11 months is a long time and you are probably a little weary. The answer is there and I hope you will get a big indication of it.
Thinking of you and always praying that you get where you need to go without too much undue stress and heartache.
Peace and love,
Jackie
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Lacee's Garden...
Another side garden, with Tomato plants, etc.
AND the infamous Chickens.... I forget their names...
And their 2-story luxurious Coop! You can almost see the little "door" that opens to their nesting area...
Okay Regbeach... just let us know what is going on.... I would not want to make any decision for your Mom either... Unless she can't,....But I am with Carole... If she doesn't WANT to do anything else, it is very stressful for her to keep worrying about that possibility.... It was hard enough for me.... Finally I just said "No, I don't want chemo.".....
I'm sorry, I forgot what her age is? And I was 72 when diagnosed... not 73.... but I will be 76 in a couple months!
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love, love, love the gardens and chickens. You are so talented Chevy.
Peace and love
Jackie
p.s.
and give such sensible advice.
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I dealt with my Mom's dementia, luckily no cancer, but.......I know we want to keep them with us as long as possible, and do all we can. Sometimes the hardest decision is to do nothing. I watched my young daughter go thru chemo after chemo, it can be a rough road to hoe. Is it worth it, what is the quality of life for her either way? there are no definites, I realize how hard it is for you.
chevy, love the pictures. Eating a lot of eggs this week? Quite q set up!
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Regbeach, Have you talked to the stroke doctors about her progress and likelihood of significant improvement? One downside of chemo would be interfering with her therapy for the stroke. Also talk to onc about possible heart effects from chemo. I know that some are very hard on the heart. It's an extremely difficult decision and I feel for you having to decide without her input. What was her attitude toward life before the stroke? One of my grandmothers gave up everything at 70 and lived to be 94. Another was going strong at 96 despite severe arthritis. My heart goes out to you.
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Love the pics, Chevy! You have been a busy gardener and it shows.
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Hi again! Back from shopping! It's amazing that no-one is out on the roads today!
Those are my neighbor Chickens...
And the neighbors will be home Friday. Been gone almost 2 weeks to Florida at the beach. The girls haven't started laying eggs yet.... Darn! I keep hoping.... but I will get some when they start laying...And yes Carole, I love working in the yard... Transplanting some Iris, when it is cool out.... maybe in the morning.
Wren and Bonnets ...... that's a good point.... about her stroke and chemo.... I KNOW chemo is very hard on even the younger, stronger gals! They can recover mostly, but I didn't want to try it myself....
If it were MY Mom, I wouldn't do it. She drove to the Doctor for an appt. Well they SAID she should go over to Emergency, because they thought her "congestive heart failure" needed looking at.... She drove over there
THEN they took her by ambulance across the Bay Bridge to San Francisco, and they did a quadruple by-pass, plus valve job. Dad was just beside himself! She DROVE herself to the appointment, and had been feeling fine! DAMN them!
She had a stroke during surgery.... put in a pacemaker.... And for only a couple days, she could talk.... I went out there.... then she knew nothing. We were then told her kidneys were shutting down... to not give her even a sip of water... They said she was not going to make it. We had to decide if we wanted them to put her through dialysis every day. She could only moan, and stare straight ahead.
We sang to her the next night.... all of us... I just remember singing 'You Are MY Sunshine".... because she always used to sing it to us... I yelled at the nurses to please to SOMEthing for her!!! She was just moaning... They said, that more morphine would just slow her down... I said BUT SHE IS DYING! Can't you just help her???? They increased her drip.
She passed away that night... But I still feel guilty along with my Brother for saying don't do the dialysis... I thought maybe she could have LIVED! But it was in our hands.... and we wanted her to not suffer any longer. It is sooooooooo hard... But we made that decision... for her.
She was in such terrible shape after they did that surgery... It never should have happened! I wish I would have known before, what was going on. Dad just didn't know what to do.... And Mom thought maybe the surgery might be alright!
Just take your time.... Don't let anyone do anything.... Your Mom has to be in on this.... After awhile you just have to let go, and let God.
Sweet Jackie! I wish you were here to see all my gardens! Thank you! Love you guys.... xoxoxo
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Wren44,
The stroke drs rattle off the science-based facts- they told us she would never eat, talk or walk again- then they got more optimistic about eating. The effect of family support (which is published in stroke rehab literature) and human will aren't factored in. My mom can now eat anything. She walks with assistance- ie. a cane and someone holding her pant waist in case she mis-steps. She used to not understand much but now understands so much more. She can call my name now, and has even said a few sentences. They say that speech can improve for many years, unlike movement which "they" say is unlikely to improve after a year- strength can still improve but neuroplasticity of the brain lasts for a year or less. blah, blah. We had to stop listening 100% to science (and I am an engineer) after 2 days in ICU. Everyone at each step of rehab process has to tell you- this could be the max improvement- you have to be prepared to take care of her or whatever if she doesn't progress passed this stage- but she kept improving.
The chemo that was recommended is not the one that can damage the heart. Before the stroke, she played tennis once a week, rode her bike, walked, travelled.
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For you and your Mom....
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Chevy - thanks for some much needed tears. Beautiful video.
Regbeach - I don't remember if you ever said how old your mother is now. Based on my experience with my own Mother, I would listen to all the words above that say - take your time. My brother made a snap decision to prolong my Mother's life & agony for WAY too long. It was impossible for him to understand there is a treatment difference between setting a broken leg and forcing tube feeding. Since your Mother was so active before the stroke, I expect it's already difficult for her to deal with where she is now. Would she really want anything more invasive? Modern medicine can keep throwing out treatments & keep everyone going a little longer, but at what cost to the quality of life? Then again - I'm over 70 so my perspective has changed. Like Chevy said - sometimes you have to let go & let God.
What a heavy load you have my friend. We'll keep you in our thoughts & prayers.
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That was a beautiful post Minus.....
You know, my Husband's Brother did the same thing with their Dad! He made them force-feed him because he was unresponsive.... He just couldn't let them let him go.... Then life support... And the poor man was dying of lung cancer that metastasized to his brain.
It only took a few more days of sheer agony, before he passed away anyway... but to hang on to someone because you don't want to lose them, was just so dis-respectful of him, and his life.
It's ironic, but many years later, this same Brother was in the same situation! And his wife insisted on putting HIM on Life Support, until SHE was ready to let him go! Then the family came in, and they disconnected him. Did we go? No. To me it was just heart-wrenching, and nothing that we wanted to see.
I never thought of this before until now....(about his Brother and his Dad....)
But life has it's twists and turns, and it shouldn't be up to us to make a decision ...... But we just have to "believe"..... And ask for help.
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Regbeach, Sounds to me like your Mom has the will, which is the most important part of getting well IMHO. I volunteer at my senior center where there are a lot of people partially disabled by strokes. They are participating and having a good time. So never underestimate her ability to recover. Again, a really difficult decision. (((((HUGS)))))
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Well, this AM I talked about chemo again with mom. She was adamant with no. Then, I said she would still have to do radiation and she said no- which made me question her ability to decide all over again. Most of the day I was thinking we would cancel it. Then, I talked to an old friend who basically thought the original plan of trying at least one treatment seemed like something everyone had agreed to and why not do that. My brother and I talked to mom again. She tends to listen to him- like, she won't do extra exercises at home for me most of the time but will always do it for him. It's either his deep voice, or she's just tired of me telling her to do things all the time (take your medicine, move your foot, etc).
Anyway, with both of us there, she agreed to do it. Oddly, this time, she cried, which of course made me question all over again. It seems no matter the decision the opposite one always seems better! I say oddly- because the neurologists told us her personality and emotions would be affected. One specifically said she would never cry again. She has laughed, she has been annoyed but through all of rehab and breast cancer news never one tear until today. Maybe the situation finally sunk in, maybe her decision this time even with tears was made with a different clarity, a realization that chemo as bad as it might be, might be a good choice. Or maybe she just couldn't take us bringing it up again and is doing it because my brother said the drs. and us think it is a good idea to try.
Either way, it doesn't feel "better", it just feels surreal. Of course, I googled one more thing and read horrible stories of side effects- numbness in feet, blah, blah. And read that the steriod has a moderate interaction with her anti-coagulant- trying to tell myself that it is just for 3 days.
She is always tired when she goes to bed (silly, aren't we all), plus she takes her more of her anti-seizure med at night which might add to it. Those are the moments when I think- My God, I hope she can still walk on the "fatigue days" and that there aren't more than a few in a row. I thought her agreeing would feel better. In the AM, I first felt bad (like wrong decision) when she was saying no, then I felt sort of relief that we wouldn't be dealing with chemo. Then after talking to my friend, I felt like chemo was right again, then mom's tears...
Steroid in the AM and IV line in the afternoon.
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Morning Reg.... Your Mom might still change her mind..... This is so hard for her.
Okay, listen to your friend, and us, AND her team, but don't just go with any decision that "sounds" alright. Write this all down, and hopefully you will come up with something that you AND your Mom can agree on.
Just know what you are getting into... You are feeling like you are pushing her into something that might/could hurt her. And you don't want to do that.....
On the other hand, you want to do what is best, to maybe keep any cancer from returning, or even starting out new. But there are no guarantees for any of that! She might get a treatment, but she could still come down with something entirely un-related...
The thing is, you will never know what any outcome will be.... But yes, your Mom has to be sure of what she is going to do... Hugs to you both.
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Good morning everyone,
Did I ever say chevy -- you have such good advice. Reg.....yes, you do feel I think a HUGE sense of responsibility for decisions when you are trying to make them for someone else. Not just that it may not work out well, but that this person ( your mom, in your case ) loves and trusts you and it would seem the worst kind of betrayal.
I keep going back to the idea.....if the situation were reversed ( you were in you Mom's place ) what would she do for you. It is hard to go with a gut feeling when it is tied to decisions for someone else.....who has multiple issues. We want our family members to live....and to live well, or as well as they can. We don't want to have to wonder if things we chose did harm or shortened a life, or made other problems.
Trying one round doesn't sound so bad, yet the first one ( usually ) is the easiest since chemo is cumulative.
Were it me......I'd probably ( if possible ) take a long, long walk. That is usually ( if I keep at it long enough ) the time when I get flashes of in-sight into just HOW something is and just WHAT I need to do about it. Should have told you that some time back. Then again....not sure that works for everyone, but for the things that really 'get' to me, that has been my bottom line.
I'm praying you will come to the right decision for all and that no matter the outcome -- you will be strong knowing ***the path was always there***.
Peace and gentle love
Jackie
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Patch Adams0 -
Illinois Lady...sadly, I am not sure I remember laughing... but I will try.
Well, ladies...Nothing like a last minute new decision....
First, thanks for your support in my decision-making regarding Mom and her chemo. I was mentally ready to start it, felt I could (as her caregiver) deal with the side effects, picked up the prescriptions and Claritin, left a message for the doctor with a dozen final questions (making sure he knew she couldn't feel cold on her leg -in case of neuropathy, asking about B vitamins for it, asking if she should sleep in recliner in case she throws up at night because she can't sit up herself, etc.) When I woke up at 5:30 am, it felt unsure, but then it felt good to be proceeding.
Half an hour later, mom woke up. She looked really tired. I reminded her we were going to hospital in a few hrs, re-explained the whole situation, she said no, was visibly irritated. I talked to my brother. We cancelled it. Talked to the doctor. He said either choice would have been a good one. So, we are hoping for the best.
And, yes, I am still thinking about those rampant cancer cells, wondering if they will multiply "too fast", and sort of wishing poison was attacking them. Hopefully, those thoughts will pass. Off to schedule radiation.
Oh, and when I asked her if she was happy we cancelled it, she clapped my hand about 20 times.
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Okay Regbeach! You DID it! Now you can relax! Radiation is tough, just because of the time it takes, etc! AND she will be extremely tired.... But she can always rest....
Honestly it doesn't sound like she could have gone through something as tough as chemo, with all of her other problems! Don't worry about what COULD happen.... We can't control anything, and there IS no guarantee that this could have helped!
Heck, I might get cancer again tomorrow, or next year, or maybe 5 years! But I will take care of it or anything else when it happens. I wish I could have stayed on Tamoxifen also, but even THAT does not guarantee me being cancer free. So I take my chances.... We take them every day.... Just relax, and be happy.... and help your Mom like you always have.... She really trusts you now, since you didn't "make" her do chemo! It was her choice.... so remember that.
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Regbeach, I am so relieved that you aren't going to put your mother through chemo. I think you made the right decision for her at this time. Or rather she made the right decision for her at this time. She has enough to deal with now with therapy and striving to recover from the stroke. You are a very caring daughter and your mother is fortunate to have you on her team.
I played golf at 8:20 am and had a pretty good round. The weather was sunny and not uncomfortably hot. I felt so blessed to be out there on the golf course!
DH has a woodworkers' guild meeting tonight so I will be in control of the tv remote control!
Tomorrow morning I'll be going to a surgery center to keep my date with the PS who will remove the skin cancer on my face.
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Regbeach....good for you and good for Mom. She took it out of your hands and " the path was always there". You and she just had to reach the point where they merged. I do believe things work out as they are meant to and though anyone can laugh if desired.....that angels guide our path at all times. They help us when we are at our wit's end unable to find direction.....the path is placed in front of us.....just as it was you.
I am thrilled. The rads -- I had seven full weeks....only made me a little tired twice. It was not bad, but I will say that it was a different kind of tired. I felt almost incapable of moving --- really forced myself and walked the fatigue off. Just saying so you will know that it is not just worked all day and really tired fatigue........it is the everything in and out side of you just can't move period.
Not to be fearful of this......if your mom has some stroke therapy to do.....and you and your brother do some things with her.....she may keep out from under any fatigue. We just have no idea most of the time how it will go and for whom. I knew some women who kept going to the gym during rads though they did abbreviated programs.
None of us really know for sure how long we will be on this Earth, but all of us want as much of it to be quality time as it is possible for it to be. You are giving a wonderful gift to your Mom......and today she gave you one as well. She released you from momentous in-decision and fear.
Breathe deeply, relax and know that you got the right answer.
Lots of love and hugs,
Jackie
please let us know how it goes with you and MOM. We are all still hoping for a smooth, gentle path and good recovery. Take care of you too....................it's been a rough climb.
Jackie
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Jackie your grape salad sounds delicious. I am going to try this recipe.
Regbeach, I am sorry to hear all you are going through. It is hard to make those decisions for our parents as they get holder and are not able to let us know what they really want to do. You just have to trust that you will make the best decision for her.
Hi to all the other ladies. I am still trying to catch up on all the entries.
My oldest sister that was dx with cervical cancer in december wen through radiation but refuses chemo since they found spots on her liver. The cervical cancer shrunk a little but the spots onthe liver increased. Chemo would give her some more months but she says no thank you. She has had enough. The other sisters and myself were to go in July to visit her. She says she will tell us when she ready for us to come down there but she has been put in hospice so I really do not know what to do.
it looks like rain again tonight.I still have a pointsetta plant going strong even outside
I left work at the normal time today. I slept 12 hours Friday night after working 3 12 hour days. I just can not do that many long days now.
Hope everyone has a good week.
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Reg---I'm happy u'r not putting u'r mom thru chemo personally--she is and will go thru enough now--giving her more could be so dificult for her--she's doing better than expected and made up her own mind --she's one smart woman, chemo is so hard on u'r body and it does have many SE's that u'r mom maybe couldn't handle so decision made and go from there. I know I told u my mom opted out of chemo and lived another 50 yrs and did die of cancer but totally unralated--So there are no guarantees on any length of life no matter what it done. Altho Drs. are our guides they are not infallable (like the Pope in religion) so decision has been made and just love u'r mom like u have and respect her decision.
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Carole I' glad u got some golf in today cuz I know u love it.
And chevy u garden is so pretyy but enough about those chickens==they're chickens for pete's sake not kitten, or puppies. Oh don't hate me for saying what I think Chevy know me quite well shce can take it. LOL
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have a joke I want to share,
A mother put her 5 yr old son in the car and told him to buckle his seat belt, she did not
want to get stopped by the police and get a ticket. They were driving along and a convertible came by them with the top down and an old lady was standing up stark naked. The son said to his mom she is not wearing her seat belt and will get a ticket.
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Mommarch that's what he notoced--hahahaha
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Oh yes they ARE Cammi! They are pets... just like puppies.... maybe not as cuddly, but YES they are pets! Ha, ha! You are just jealous, little girl! If you DON'T watch out, I will post another picture... oh wait... you want another picture?
See now, isn't she cute? I think it's a "she!" Anyway Cam, that was sweet what you said to Regbeach... My Mom also.... She died because of heart surgery, not because of her breast cancer she had 15 years before....
Hi Termite! You like Chickens? Cammi doesn't.... She just likes snakes... Sorry about your Sister...
Maybe she doesn't want you guys to see her like that? Man, that's a tough decision to think about.... How far away is she from you.... And sorry about her cancer.... How old is she? But yes, it was her choice, right? Thinking of you...
Jackie, that was beautiful what you posted to Regbeach... You just have a way with comforting words...
Mommarch, good story, Ha, ha! Sounds so true!
Carole, have fun out on that golf course! I love working in my gardens, like you love being out golfing.... but don't tell Cammi, I'm having fun with the chickens....
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