I look for other flat chested women. A rant.
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Another direction but with focusing on trying to get the attention of Project Runway or the like, I would like to throw this up and see where it lands.
It would seem to me that we focus on flat as nothing more than the ribcage. If we just camouflage that.... as if we can't see the forest for the trees. When you remove breasts and perhaps gain or lose weight, a whole lot more is changed than our chest. Our chest is not a piece alone and now the scale of that chest as it relates to the rest of our bodies is no longer the same. Try as hard as I might, I struggle with dysmorphic moments, you know that thing that makes anorexics look at their 89 lb rack of bones and think they are fat. Then there are the "rules" we have had years to internalize. Rules that are not even a conscious thought anymore. Like "those clothes will show nipples or bra straps." What nipples, what bra straps? No longer relevant and yet somewhere in the background still driving the train. I never hear this talked about anywhere here. I have to remember to start assessing the image with full length mirrors and even then with difficulty seeing the real me. The old rules no longer work and are in fact destructive when dressing the new body. I have to consciously think about shopping in areas I never would have step foot in before and give up many of the old tried and true.
I suspect the artists among us who intuitively understand proportion and scale and how a bunch of pieces all come together to make a whole, may more quickly perhaps grasp what I am trying to say.
Dressing this new body, finding new ways, new rules and leaving others in the dust has been a long struggle and not an easy one for me. At the end of the day all the things about focal points, pattern, rousching, all valid and yet really only one piece of the puzzle. I think there is much more to it that we never seem to speak of.
Barbara
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djustme, Please remember you do have the option of a second mastectomy at a different time. But that said, I had mine 18 months apart, and I may be the only one here who feels this way, but I will say it anyway. One breast was not sexy. It did not make me feel like a woman, it was awkward to dress, you don't want to make it look bigger or cleavage on one side...so day after day, not only was it a ticking time-bomb but it was also something that made me way less than sexy. One breast reminded me during intimate moments that I am seriously different.
Flat, for me, with silk against my skin is sexy...Flat I can wear sexy camis....
Barbara, dressing really is a problem. I seem to have many pieces of clothing that had gathers under the breasts, or a fullness there, and now that looks terrible being flat. And I agree with whoever said they are tired of sorting through tons of clothing to find the one right piece. And then, just when I get the hang of dressing for summer...it is Autumn, time to start over. Sigh.
very well expressed Barbara....
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Thank you Crystal, I have sometimes come to realize that the reason I am sorting through tons of clothes to find the one right piece is because I am still shopping in the same old stores, same old departments, looking for the same old stuff on the same old racks. That what I really need to do is to start thinking totally outside of my box and maybe find a whole new store. To stop trying to recreate the old me and fully embrace the new me. I dare say if we picked that celebrity whose body we most admire, presuming it is pretty different from our own, that if we suddenly found ourselves in that body, we would struggle, because we would try to dress that body as we dress ourselves and then wonder why it wasn't working. We have learned ways of doing things, habits that run very deep, and when big changes occur, we fall back on them even when they no longer serve us. To see things in new ways, to dare to think of myself in a new light, sounds good but harder to accomplish. Not just BC leaves us forever changed, and not all changes are bad. I do not think of the changes to my body as bad but they are radically different and different takes time. The mental emotional adjustments to stop looking backwards, and start to boldly go forward took far longer than the healing of the body. Well worth it but not easy. I really do hope that Project Runway will take on this challenge.
Barbara
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I went into a store today and tried on the draped front neckline I have been wondering about. I thought it looked great. I am going to plunk down 68 dollars for it tomorrow. I may buy two (they only have two left). I am such a budget minded person. This seems like alot for a shirt, but I don't have the convienence of finding a deal.
Here is the link for it, though the photo does it no justice. The cloth softly glimmers and is substantial enough to drape nicely at the chest. I like it alot. It's rockstar. I am curating a rockstar collection of clothing, including some of my art clothing pieces. Last November I worked/blogged (embroiderred, stitched, improved, what I called a 'Rockstar Boro' velvet jacket. It goes well with skinny jeans.
http://www.michaelstars.com/p-0410-Shine_34_Sleeve_Drape_Neck_Top.php?color=METEOR&item_num=2
I bought a gorgeous pair of boots and have fallen in love with this shoe manufacturer:
http://cydwoq.com/womens/vintage-line.html
and oh no! http://cydwoq.com/bags/bakpak-8767.html
I think I am a sucker for statement pants. I live in New York City, I went to the upper east side last week? All the different sides of the island have different fashion standards, you can use fashion as a compass in the city, one look is east, another totally different on the upper west. I think I finally understand fashion as an artform. Fashion is art. I am curating a few new 'looks'. I go rockstar shopping, I look for an outfit I think a rockstar would wear-Joan Jet, What would Joan wear? This drape front blouse will be part of that grouping.
They have the plum (my favorite color) and a light gold. They also have it in sleeveless, which I am going to try on as well.
I might just charge up a storm.
I am creating my next 'look'. I am going to rock it.
http://www.michaelstars.com/p-0410-Shine_34_Sleeve_Drape_Neck_Top.php?color=GRAPHITE&item_num=2
I spoke to a Dressform company. To have one custom made form for my body will cost almost 1000.00. Money we don't have. But, I think a mission is coming on and that I need to listen to it. I want to make clothing that works for us. I want to do it affordably. The more affordable it is to rock this look the easier it will become to embrace. I bought Fitness magazine this month because of the article about Margaret W. Smith and don't you know? she mentioned the need for clothing!
We need ligerie.
Tell me what you would want to see! Day dream, with links-if possible. I want to see what works for you and I want to know why. The why is important, the more you tell me, the better I can collect ideas. Do you like lace? If a type of cloth feels good against the skin let me know, if drape matters, I don't know. Help me build a criteria for what looks good on our bodies. I wish we could create an excel spreadsheet of ideas. I don't know excel.
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that sounds awesome!
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MT1,
I love the shirt.
I went shopping today and it was disappointing to put clothes back because they would not look right. I bought a shirt that had some draping and a tank top that was dressier and did not cling. It was upsetting as I had to buy prints and I always wear solid colors. I have to adapt a new style and it is weird for me. I wore a cotton tshirt from Target that did not look too bad today.
I would love to see a line of mastectomy clothes and bathing suits that are not matronly.
Pam0 -
Thank you everyone for your support. The surgery is booked for November 28th and I know in my heart I need to do this. I needed the support you have given me to help sort my feelings out so I would not doubt my decision. Hopefully my dh will see a happier me, which in turn has to be sexier than an anxious, fearful me.
I find prints are definately easier to wear than solids. And the styles I choose now are more feminine or fussy than I ever would have worn in the past. I used to hate fussy things like ruffles or scarves, but these things help to balance the new body image. And I wear alot of light 3/4 sleeve cardigans over printed t-shirts or blouses. MT1 I saw some nice sweaters for winter with the same draped neckline at Sears store for a reasonable price. I may go try one on. I'm sure it will look much better when both sides are flat than with the uniboob. I also bought a couple of 'fooler' sweaters that look like a sweater set but they are actually one piece. The edges on the cardigan part of the sweater line up with where the middle of your breasts would normally be, so you don't really notice there is no breast. (those are solid colours and came from Sears catalogue, I think I paid about $30 each). One costly lesson I learned was not to buy something just because it hides the flatness, if it is not something that you really like and will feel good wearing. I think that part is the same as for breasted women, if you feel great when you put a particular outfit on, you will likely look good in it due to the confidence you will show.
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Pamelahope, I understand that notion of forced compromise with clothing. I have purchased some tops because they flatter me now more than what used to be my instinctive/old choices. To offset the disappointment factor, the deciding points are based on whether the color is flattering to my skin tone, the pattern doesn't overwhelm me, the shape and drape of garmet are proportionate to my overall shape and height, and whether the item is within a certain boundary that allows me to feel good about wearing. This is based on how the item looks once it is paired with slacks or skirt, a sweater, scarf, jacket, etc, and whether it ultimately makes me feel attractive. Choosing clothing this way got me thinking way out of my usual comfort zone, and I was really surprised! A new me has emerged, but it's kind of interesting, because it reminds me so much of the creative way I used to dress 20 yrs ago. I am liking it a lot! Here's more . .
MT, I am already on board with that kind of top. I am in "rock star" (or "hipster" if you ask my husband) mode, and groovin' on those kinds of tops paired with slim jeans and boots. I glommed onto these kinds of tops, jeans and boots last year and I'm giving it a second go 'round this season. I am layering sleeveless tops like that with short sleeve sweaters, long sleeve sweaters or under loose cotton tee "jackets", and jean jackets. On another style note, today in a thrift shop I found a vintage women's houndstooth blazer that has a slim but longer line reminiscent of a riding jacket (a la Phila main line or other horsey area of US). Awesome fit for a flat chest because the darts/fitted part comes from the waist up vs side darts at the bosom. Makes me look like a slim but slightly frumpy dominatrix. I was walking around the house tonight doing financial stuff and my husband remarked that all I needed was a riding crop to keep him in line. LOL! You betcha!
Anyway, what looks good with no breasts or one breast can vary according to one's basic body shape, but that doesn't mean that certain concepts don't work for many of us. I think we can continue to learn from each other. Oh! Someone mentioned Japanese patterns, and I would go for those in a flash. I was ready to purchase a pattern book, but reminded myself of other incomplete art and sewing projects I have started and need to finish (now that my hand/arm lymphedema is behaving and I don't always have to wear a glove or sleeve).
By the way, that reminds me I need to message MT about the pocket project! You gals haven't forgotten her goal to receive 1,000 pockets, have you?! When is the deadline? I want to get mine in on time!
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Starak, I have had similar thoughts. One aproach is to camouflage. But another approach would be to take advantage of the new body, work with it rather than try to hide it. But, as you say, it is not so easy to change one's mindset.
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Tina, I was browsing sewing patterns the other day, and there was a dress in Vogue Patterns that had a wide belt with a tie sort of where the obi on a kimono would be. It struck me that styles like that would work on a flat body.
Then I came across this style, Persian, and thought that would also work:
" mce_src="alt="Persian dress" border="" hspace="" vspace="" width="" height="" align="" /> 0 -
Mel, and everyone else, check this out:
"Hannah has teamed up with local photographer Eileen Long, who lives on Dartmoor, to find and photograph 80 women from Devon and Cornwall who have either had one or both breasts removed as a result of cancer.
The pair intend to remove the stigmas surrounding breast cancer and mastectomies and celebrate the scars that represent life through 'The Amazonian Project'."
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MT1: I love the top. In a lighter color, I would describe it as saying it makes no attempt to hide, it celebrates. The draping creates volume at the shoulder line making the waist tiny and creating an hourglass silhouette.
My most similar top with virtually the exact same neckline is black with dolman sleeves. Even though all black it has horizontal stripes, one more shiny and the offset stripe almost a black velvet look. The stripes on the dolman sleeve area are vertical. I am a huge fan of black anyway and I like the visual interest created by the stripes. Mine serves to create even more volume at the top making the waist appear even smaller. The downside of this top is that the front can slip down a bit so that I feel a need for a snug cami underneath to prevent exposing too much when leaning over or if it slips more than my comfort level. The other thing I like about the style of these two tops is they work equally well flat or with small foobs. If I do have a day that I choose to wear foobs to work and I feel the need to rip them off halfway through the day, this top serves both looks equally well. While our internal voice says we have a flashing neon light on our chest, the reality is that I can go to the ladies room with foobs and come back without and not even a glance in my direction over the change provided that my behavior and carriage never changes.
Barbara
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MT1, I saw directions online somewhere of how to make a dressform yourself, it involved a T shirt you were willing to sacrifice and duct tape. I don't remember but if I can find a link I'll post it. Also please PM me with the address for sending pockets.
I have found Kohl's Simply Vera Wang line to have many tops that work for me now. They change every season but usually there's some with neckline gathers or drapenecks or interesting things going on that make the eye forget what is missing. They start out high priced but Kohl's has them on sale quite frequently. They're are on sale now. I can't get a link to the tops to work but if you go to www.kohls.com and put your cursor over "women" up at the top then look at the options that gives you over to the far right of the options you can pick by brand. The Dana Buchman line there also has tops that work well. They're also on sale now.
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Ok, I just Googled for dressform and duct tape and there are tons of links, including youtubes. For a full dress form you'd have to sacrifice a snug dress, the one I originally saw was just from the waist up.
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Reitmans is my new favourite store. Here are some of the tops that I actually have in my closet.
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Momine - What an excellent story! Love the photo of her with the scissors on the paper pattern on her chest.
The earlier link seems to have been moved - it can be found here instead - http://www.thisisplymouth.co.uk/Plymouth-woman-battling-breast-cancer-ndash/story-17072064-detail/story.html
I am going to drop them a line to find out if this Amazonian Project idea can be rolled out across the UK. The reconstruction backlash starts here!
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Greenfrog thanks for finding the new link.
Momine, that is a wonderful story.
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There is a revolution starting!!
I remember a photographer in New York who did a similar project. I will see if I can find the info on it.
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http://www.thescarproject.org/book/
http://www.thescarproject.org/documentary/
Edited to add link to the home page. Beautiful picture of a pregnant women with mast.
http://www.thescarproject.org/
Here it is. The first link is to the book, which I have not seen. The second link is for the documentary, which I did see.
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Here's a link to some Mobius scarfs that would work well for boobaflage, as I like to call it.
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I found one of the biggest problems dressing, is that in most regular tops the necklines are generally too low or too loose, because they are made for breasts. So you have to wear a snug cami and that can be very warm especially in the summer. Even the necklines on some of my camis are too loose and you can see down them when I bend over. Yet another reason for a special line of clothing just for us, with necklines brought up just a little tighter or higher. Now that I have my sewing stuff out of storage following my move, I am going to try to see if a couple of tucks in certain tops might fix this issue.
On another note, there was a big discussion on this thread the other day about not hiding the fact that we are breastless. That got me re-thinking the whole 'how to dress' thing yet again. The last couple of days we seem to have been looking at camouflaging the flatness with clothing. If we always dress in a way to absolutely cover the fact that we have no breasts, then we are still not being a visible example of the reality of breast cancer, which is sort of the opposite of what we started out talking about. I'm not saying that anyone needs to militantly dress in a way that is unflattering just to make a point (think back to the so called feminists who looked anything but). Anyway, it got me thinking that maybe the 'goal' shouldn't be just be camouflage, if so, we might as well put on breast forms. Instead I want to try to be more focused on what I feel good in, regardless of whether I look flat in it.
I started thinking about a couple of my pre surgery favourite soft, cozy, solid coloured winter sweaters. I hope that I can still wear them, even though the flatness would be obvious. As long as the necklines and colours are flattering to my face, why not? Isn't that what we were talking about? (Again there is the political issue of whether my co-workers and my clients would feel comfortable).
Today I wore a blouse to work that has vey softly draped layers of a printed lightweight fabric. You can tell one side of me is flat, but it is not an 'in your face' kind of thing. The blouse is loosely fitted and sits loosely but close around the tummy and hips so it doesn't make the stomach look bigger than the chest. This is my favorite blouse to wear to work. it makes me feel feminine, and confident. I wish there were more of these magical tops that make you feel great.
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Momine and GreenFrog, what a great link. I'm across the pond but will email them.
I've never been one who liked ruffles, accessorries or cowls. I have always tended toward simple cuts. While I love the word "boobaflage," I just couldn't bring myself to start wearing things I otherwise would not have worn.
I am finding that cancer has, despite leaving me breastless, somehow (perhaps because I have wide shoulders so now fit better into clothes) left me more comfortable with clothes that are, if not ruffly, at least not unisex. And I am finding some inspiration in the oddest of places. My 5 year old daughter gets high-end hand me downs, which have recently included this shirt (they call it a dress, but it actually fits like a long shirt and my daughter wears with slim pants) in a less childish maroon and navy print with maroon trim: http://www.teacollection.com/product/2F12218/girls-dresses-winter-wildflower-wrap-dress.html#antique purple
I'm thinking that sort of thing, which I guess you could call Asian-inspired, is something I could do that would be different than my usual button-down shirts. It's simple, and in an elegant print like the one my daughter has I'd wear it. Has anybody ever seen anything like that?
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I saw my first other flat woman out. She was actually in my breast surgeons office but she was not wearing forms. She stared at me and I stared at her. One thing I noticed is that she looked better flat as she was heavier and it was not so obvious. On me, I am slim and was wearing a white tshirt, did not cling though, and it was very apparent. I think we made each others day!
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About the camouflage and whether to foob or not etc, I too have been thinking about it because of this conversation.
I think I am mostly with Barbara on this. Especially post-cancer, I find myself unwilling to do anything that doesn't work for me, me, me, meeeeeeeee
So, I am not, at this point in time, up to being the sole poster child for flattie fabness in Greece, for example. Which means I wear foobs. I do find the foobs a pain many times, so I am experimenting with non-foob possibilities for clothing, but because of the poster child thing, they will be on the camouflagy side, or at least be confusing to the eye.On the other hand, I would happily pose naked for photographs, for example, to raise awareness or model on Project Runway or anything else along those lines.
I think what I am trying to say is that I refuse to apologize for any of it, wearing of foobs, camouflage or being flat, and reserve the right to do as I please and what works for me at all times.
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Yup. What Momine said.
I am doing what feels right for me. I will not embarrass my young son by waiting at the school gate in our small village wearing a tight fitting t-shirt which leaves nothing to the imagination simply to make a point. I didn't wear tight fitting tops which drew attention to my breasts when I had them - so why would I dress to draw attention to my chest now?
Is that letting the side down? Maybe.
I don't consciously dress to cover up or camouflage but I do dress to enhance this body I have now - breastless, scarred, painful and a totally different shape since oopherectomy. I am very tall - nearly 6 ft - I have had years of listening to crap about my height and people asking me if I am a transvestite etc. Needless to say being breastless and using fake breasts feeds directly into that insecurity. We all come to this point from different experiences and as such must reserve the right to do what works for us and our bodies as individuals.
The bottom line is that I don't want to be defined as the breast cancer lady. I just don't want this whole thing to matter. I know a woman posts here with a very playful attitude that I envy - alternating foob sizes to suit her mood. I think I might just try to lighten up about the whole thing.
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Yesterday I bought clothing. I went to a favorite store and I told myself to try on everything, things I liked, things I wonder about, I was there for a long while. I asked the clerks for help and opinions, it was fun. I now have 3 tops and 2 sweaters. I want to create a look that suits the new me, and I don't know that I think this has to do with camouflage at all. The new look is about confidence, strength and loving myself and all I have been through. If I love the clothes I am in, am confident and happy, I will also be sexy.
I plan do do a blog post about my fashion haul, and I will link when I do.
I bought the drape neck blouse that I linked to, in plum. I bought the same style blouse without sleeves in blue. Then I bought a wrap front blouse that is low cut, highly patterned and tight. I bought a fun throw on cotton sweater in a lacey knit in rust color that goes over each top nicely. Then I bought an asymmetrical sweater that has my creative juices going. I want to see if I can use a drapery silk and recreate it in woven cloth. Or maybe even store bought knit, I don't want to knit though.
I have lost weight through all of this, about 16 pounds. I told myself before surgery, that if I was going to go through with a bilateral mastectomy, that after being shy and modest about my 34dd breasts for a lifetime, I would no longer be shy or modest about my body. I am working out and building a strong core. The two drape neck blouses I bought highlight my new shape. You can even see the emerging shape of my abs in the blue drapery shirt.
Yes, there will be days when I want the comfort of a baggy tent to bum around in. But on those other days? I really don't care about my scars showing. They are my breasts, they are my cleavage. They are my "freak flag", and I am letting them fly. Sometimes around town, I see women with the ugliest cleavage ever and their tops dip below the equator. I don't really like the look but i find it permissive and liberating, i mean, if those women feel confident enough to go publicly showing that much skin, come on! I love when my blouses shift and I get to see the little kiss and the pucker of my scars. Both of these images are womanly and acceptable to me.0 -
Happee, I am sure you are right and no offense taken. It will be a while before I am completely on board with the reactions I am likely to get in public, if I go flat on a regular basis. As I noted elsewhere, I am already dealing with all manner of questions from total strangers (and others) about the lymphedema sleeve I usually wear. But I think there has to be room for everyone to deal with this in their own way and on their own schedule.
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Have you seen Disney's Tangled? When Rapunzel first comes down from the tower. Running and giddy, followed by depths of depression, then back to giddy? Yesterday, I decided to wear flat to work and have a co-worker take a couple of pics. Murphy's Law set in and of course, coming to work in a downpour with hood up did nothing for the look. But sucked it up and did it anyway. In real life we come through downpours and have bad hair days.
Then I am pondering posting pics. We talk about a private site. This is how I walk around every day, perhaps more fitted than some of my outfits but still "normal". I carry the standard in my mind of, would I be embarrassed if it appeared on the 6:00 news. I am not at all an activist in nature. I was a target for having gigantic girls so I was forced to develop a certain thicker skin and show of strength in order to not be bullied. So I don't try to hide but really do not want to be the center of attention either.
Then I look at the photos and in one second saying pretty damn good for over 60 and in the next obsessing over every imperfection. So I am posting the photos. Whether I leave them up forever who knows but really what do you see that I should be ashamed of showing in public.
I will still do I as see fit period but have seen fit to go flat more often with all of you in mind.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/starak_/8080036543/in/photostream
http://www.flickr.com/photos/starak_/8080019384/in/photostream/
As to the outfit, this is similar to but not the avatar outfit. The shirt has side stretch panels which is how it really fits without being constraining. I am wearing nothing under it and it is snug enough that there is no tendency to gap. I am wearing one of my wide stretch belts to cover some of the imperfections at the waist.
For MT1, my thinking: I like structure and detail. I have lived my life with too much volume. I most often lean towards less volume rather than more. I see a touch of an androgynous look in this outfit and yet one that is still totally feminine. Nobody will say Sir to me in this outfit. I have a straight body with no waist. This outfit makes it look as if I have an hourglass figure. I have short hair to maximize the volume and compensate for very thin flat hair, all of which is unrelated to BC.
Barbara
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I have not found photos of my shirts but I buy quite a few things from Ross. Two favorite shirt brands due to alot of structure made for a flat feminine body are Cotton Express and Signature by Larry Levine.
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Happee, if I wore the same tops as I did when I had breasts...there would be huge darts leading nowhere and two puffy balls of fabric just hanging there. My boobs were quite big.
I feel that I am trying to find clothes that fit my new shape and make me feel comfortable. I really don't consider other people's reactions when choosing items. I don't like baggy tops that will show down my chest when I bend over because I didn't like them even when I did have boobs. And some of that 'camoflauge' (like patterns and layers) hides other sins too, if you know what I mean.
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