I look for other flat chested women. A rant.
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Pip, I would be in the same situation. I wore many fitted button down tops that just don't work without boobs.
I dress to please myself. I think I look better with something that kind of "fills in the frame" of where my breasts used to be, whether that be a scarf, a vest, an interesting tucking of fabric, or whatever.
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From the chatter here and on other threads, it seems that it is many of us 'large busted' women who are feeling a freedom now that we are flat. As much as other women in our society want to increase their breast size by augmentation, we have had enough of dented shoulders, sore backs and hanging the girls in sacks (bras). People will now look us in the eye!
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Happee, I don't know. I was pretty small always and liked being small. One of the (many) reasons I am not inclined to get recon is that I am afraid they will make me bigger than I want to be. To me 0 boobs still look very different from small boobs. That said, I keep finding smaller and smaller foobs, lol, so maybe I am getting close to just ditching them all together. I do sometimes go flat, but it is still pretty infrequent.
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My girls were so huge they engulfed my entire rib cage literally and reached under my arms. Fitted was not an option so I was reduced to wearing oversized shapeless stuff. With those shapes and the new body, I either looked like I was being drowned by the clothing or truly masculine. Next I thought how cool, I can wear all those cute things that I saw everyone else wearing and just as you describe with the huge darts leading nowhere and the puffy balls of fabric just hanging there, clearly not working. Those things do draw negative attention and so they too went on the scrap heap. That was the period of time with The Mutants that foobs were not an option. Very discouraging and not helped by having to strap down my chest every day to even feel I looked human and then constantly grabbing at my chest to try to stop the painful sensations. The grabbing and pressing my hand against the missing breast did cause some looks.
I do want you all to know and understand that I do not go flat to make a political statement and to draw attention. I do not!! I do it because I was surprised and happy to discover that it doesn't. It is almost as if I were a teenager trying to find the "line" and being constantly amazed that it is further out than I ever imagined. In any case, whatever path any of you choose that brings you happiness and makes you smile when you look in the mirror is stellar in my book.
Barbara
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I do get it Starak, and I used one of your tricks actually. I bought a sweater with pattern on top for wearing in the winter when I feel like walking the dogs without wearing foobs.
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Hey a new word Boobaflage
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Momine - we are at EXACTLY the same place . . . I am wearing foobs at work and church, I am flat at home, sometimes shopping, out and about . . . would like to go FLAT . . . not brave enough yet . . . not ashamed, either . . . I am also, right now, hairless . . . . so the same conversation/status is what I have with the wig - at work and church, with wig . . . most other places, just a hat . . . .
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Starak - hoorah for you - "pretty damn fabulous" is correct . . . I want to look like you . . . . . once I get hair back!
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MT1, this one is especially for you. Darts are not our enemy. Put one of those big darts leading nowhere on a runway model with her nearly flat chest and she would look nearly as bad as we do. Darts can create all kinds of beautiful and interesting looks. We just have to think totally outside of the box in how they are used and with the appropriate scale which is probably the more important criteria. Some of my best new looks have darts.
I can't wait to see you model all the your new things.
Gotta run.
Barbara
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This article was in our Toronto newspaper today.
When breast cancer survivor Chris Fiorito had a mastectomy, she felt isolated. “Who do you talk to when everyone you know still has their boobs?”
Many women have the very same debate. Breast cancer is the most common cancer amongst Canadian women. The Canadian Cancer Society estimates that by the end of 2012, approximately 22,700 women will be diagnosed. Many of those women will undergo mastectomies, having one or both breasts removed. Some will choose to have reconstructive surgery with breast implants, some will choose to wear prostheses, and others may choose neither.
It’s a conversation mostly held behind closed doors. “It’s rooted in body image and self-esteem issues, relational issues, sexuality. It’s got weight,” says Chris, who after weighing her options decided not to have reconstructive surgery.
This is Chris’ story, in her own words.
Fiorito, 53, a development officer at the Canadian Cancer Society in Toronto, chose not to have reconstructive surgery after her mastectomy.
I was happily engaged in every part of my life. Teaching English as a second language at Mohawk College, taking some online courses with the University of Waterloo, lots of volunteer work at my church and just feeling good about the way I was making use of gifts and talents. And then I found this lump. I knew I needed to follow up immediately.
This was February of 2009. It became clear relatively early that this was going to be a problem. The diagnosis came April 9, 2009, a day I will never forget. I’ll never forget it.
It became clear that it was aggressive – it had already moved into lymph nodes – and that I needed all the treatment available to me. So, I chose a course of chemotherapy that lasted 16 weeks, eight treatments – a treatment every two weeks.
After treatment was over, which was the beginning of September [2009], I had a five-week rest period and then I chose a bilateral mastectomy to have both breasts removed. I chose that even though I knew only one breast was diseased at that time. [Genetic testing revealed an indication that Fiorito might develop a primary breast cancer in the other breast at some point]. I did not want to go through this again, so I chose to have both breasts removed in October of 2009.
I had a good long conversation with my left breast when I was first diagnosed. . . . I had made good lifestyle choices and I couldn’t understand why this one part was not able to continue working with the rest of my body to keep me well. . . . I said, “You need to go because you have the capacity of killing the whole body and I can’t allow that. And then to my right breast I said, “It is too high risk to keep you here. So, I am apologizing for letting you go, and I’m asking that you forgive me.”
That was the conversation I had the night before I had my surgery. . . . And then I never looked back. I thought I might really struggle. After the initial few days, few weeks, I got used to looking differently and began just feeling grateful that the source of that cancer, along with lymph nodes, had been removed, and that I had a second chance at being well.
[After her mastectomy, Fiorito had another five-week break from treatment. She then had 25 daily treatments – five consecutive weeks – with weekends off, ending on December 15, 2009.]
My oncologist told me after my surgery that she wanted me to wait a year or two [before considering reconstructive surgery] so that my body would fully heal and, because if cancer is going to return, it often comes back in the first couple of years.
For that first year, I moved through the world as a woman with no breasts and did not follow up on any prosthetics. I just let my skin and my body heal. And that was interesting, to look and feel different in my body. Then [my oncologist] gave me the name of a surgeon in my area and I didn’t follow up on it. I didn’t feel the need to have reconstructive surgery.
Instead, I went and got prostheses. And, so, I can take my breasts on and off. I do that depending on what I feel like doing and I love the freedom of that. I tell my girlfriends, “In 20 years time, I’m the one who’s still going to have perky boobs!” It wasn’t significant enough for me to go through more surgery, more anesthesia, more recovery time – my body had been through enough and I decided that it just wasn’t important enough to me to have those body parts put back on.
I remember when I got home after my operation. And feeling a sense of loss and that my body had been permanently changed by this illness. . . . That year, I noticed some changes. I noticed to not have breasts in a society that is breast-obsessed made me feel a little bit detached, emotionally and sexually – almost a little bit androgynous. I just felt less conscious of what was happening around me socially, less aware of the opposite sex. I just felt less engaged.
I began to just really embrace the fact that the people who loved me and whose relationship I valued didn’t care about whether I had breasts or not. . . . If there are people out there who can’t manage that you don’t have breasts, you don’t want those people in your life anyway. It helped me understand that this was just not a surgery that I needed to have.
When I got these prostheses and I put them on my body and they look real – you would never know that my breasts aren’t real – I went back into looking like a normal woman and presenting like all other women present who have their own breasts. And I thought, “I’ve got the best of both worlds.”0 -
Wow, love that article.
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I’m 22 months out from my surgery.
I’m looking for ways to go flat comfortably... and for me that means without drawing attention to my MIA boobs, and the concavity of my chest. The form-fitting thin knits I used to wear is not a good look for me now. I don’t mind curious looks (more frequently from women), but I have found that I’m not easy with disturbing people -- the 12-year-old boy ahead of me in the grocery check-out line staring at me with a seriously furrowed brow; the mother and 13-year-old daughter I was happily chatting with, until they noticed... they were horrified. I will carry these people in my mind forever.
Before BC, I rarely wore a bra. I worked from home out in the country, and only when I ventured into town did I don a sports bra -- always at the last minute and always the first thing to come off when I returned home.
Husband retires, we move into a motorhome fulltime, and now we’re around people all the time. So, more time in the sports bra (going braless was not a good look for me). DX a couple months later. Decided on mastectomy right away. No bras? Oh, yeah, I’m liking that. Never one to showcase my boobs, anyway.
Stage 1 of booblessness: Why should I hide my body? I’m not ashamed. (Spent a lot of time feeling defensive.)
Stage 2: Having to admit to feeling deformed.
Stage 3: Submit to foobs. Much trial and error. $$$. Discomfort (and that’s where I draw the line!).
Stage 4: Tired of spending more time on bras/camis/boobs(fake) than I ever have in my entire life.
Want to be free -- of discomfort, bras, foobs. At home, no problem. But want to look balanced when I’m out and about. Yes, I want to “pass.” My eyebrows are very light to the point of non-existence, and I pencil them. Is this that much different?
Ah, that was cathartic!
This thread has helped me more than I can say. Thanks for getting this one going, MT1.
Starak: You look fabulous. Pockets on shirts work well for me, too.
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Barbara, you are beautiful!!!!
Pam, I can only imagine how nice it was to be face to face with a lady in our "flat clan." Clan flat. Nice!
You guys, I might be in the early stages of this, because I'm still in tshirts and sweats every day. Kinda easy because of the extremely rural, Pacific Northwest island thing. Now that the rain is back, I might wear sweatshirts until June. Literally. And that would be EXACTLY like it was last year and the year before that and the year before that.
What I'm noticing is that people have their own histories with cancer. Some were primary caregivers to someone who died of it, some were children of someone who fought over a long time, some have a few friends with it, some have no prior experience of it, some actually don't even believe in cancer. All of these variations are what these people see when they look at me. So much of it has NOTHING to do with how I look or dress!!
A few people are perfectly comfortable around me because they've been around cancer and know more ins and outs of it than I do. A few are so uncomfortable, they step back and avoid eye contact. Some just stare into my face, meaningfully, without knowing what to say. Some look at my body, trying to understand. All of this is normal and natural, I think.
I feel better when I do what feels right to me from one moment to the next. Yesterday I bought a very warm hat that I might wear every day for a while. And a pair of earrings that I saw my husband notice. He liked them very much; I could tell by his face, because he didn't say a word.
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Starak - you look wonderful - a great outfit - very elegant.
EllenP - that is exactly how I felt (feel). Very definite stages ranging from rage to euphoria, from belligerence to sorrow. And the stages keep occuring - there is no conclusion for me. The process of living a breastless life just rattles on and on.
I have just had my hair cut very short again - I looked in the mirror this morning and saw a gangly, bony chested boy staring back at me. It is surreal seeing this change in myself - I am growing increasingly androgynous. With no breasts, ovaries or oestrogen I suppose that is unsurprising.
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I've been feeling old and androgynous with my short gray hair and flat chest, but yesterday I tried on some clothes in an expensive store, and the saleswoman practically swooned and said, "You have such a great figure for clothes. I wish I could dress you every day." Now this kind of thing doesn't happen often--in fact it's never happened before. But it just goes to show that how you feel isn't necessarily how you look to others.
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Nagem, that is very true. By the way, I clicked on your blog link. You are funny, and you made me homesick for NY.
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me too. I REALLY liked your guide dog = yoga practice story. Will use it next time I'm practicing.
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Stark, your beautiful!! Thank you for posting those pictures. It gives me hope that it won't be that bad.
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Stark, You really are beautiful...you give me the courage to be *comfortable*. If I feel the need for foobs, I wear them...but most days I just don't feel the need, I feel comfortable being *me*...so I go flat. I have some clothing that disguises, and much that does not.
I take it day to day, but wow, I am so inspired by every woman here. Every post I read i feel stronger... I have been hurting these past few days (too much exercise) and I am so glad now I feel emotionally fine to be flat rather than be in pain.
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I certainly was not suggesting earlier than anyone should wear anything that they do not feel comfortable in - I was just pointing out that you can't really complain about not seeing any flat women and then make the most important consideration in choosing clothing be that no one will ever be able to tell that you are flat. In otherwords, you can't blame other women for not doing what you would never do. I personally never dressed to make my breasts the centre of attention before, so I am not about to dress in a way that makes the absence of my breasts the centre of attention now. But I am going to wear what I feel good in, and if people happen to notice that I am flat, then that is okay. I also understand how women who still have children at home don't want their children to feel embarassed about friends noticing their mother is 'different'. I still feel uncomfortable when my son's friends show up unexpectedly and I am in a T-shirt where it is obvious I have only one breast. I am hoping this will be less of a problem with no breasts.
I don't remember who made the comment of not wanting to look like a transvestite, but I had also wondered if people would ever stare at me, just trying to figure out if I was a guy or a gal. I used to have that problem in highschool when I was so flat chested and tended to wear loose fitting masculine shirts along with my short hair. At that time, I tried to hide my breasts because they were so small (and kids can be so mean). Years ago, I loved having long painted finger nails , so I am going to try start having my nails done again once my surgery is over (no nail polish allowed during surgery). I have started wearing earings again too. These feminine touches could be helpful, if they are things you enjoy. I'm all for anything you do that makes you feel good, and anything that makes you feel like you again. Starak, I love your use of a wide belt to make a waistline instead of having a childlike shape. Very feminine. I might try that tip.
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Since my last post I have thinking about my own comments. It is obvious that that in my case it is not just a question of whether I feel comfortable with people noticing the mastecomy, it is a question of who I feel comfortable noticing the mastectomy. I was thinking of the comments regarding children. I have only recently started volunteering with 9 & 10 year olds. I doubt that I would want them to ask questions (because children don't just notice stuff - they say what they notice most of the time). I don't think their parents would approve either. You just don't know how it will affect them. Some would likely just listen to the explanation and then never think about it again. But if it caused even one child anxiety about their own or their mother's health, I would feel really bad. On the other hand, I don't see a reason to hide it from adults, (but then there are exceptions with respect to adults too.) These are things I never would have thought about had I not gotten bc and started participating in these posts. The ability to explore these feelings without feeling judged is one of the things I love about this exchange of ideas. It allows me to sort out some of my thoughts and the fact that I sometimes feel two very opposing things about these issues all at the same time.
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Djustme, I had the same concern with the little ones in our family. One day the question came from my 4 yr old great niece. She touched my chest and said "you don't have any breasts". I said "no, I don't". She shrugged her shoulders and said "Oh" and then started on something else. I guess my advice in that situation would be the same as when our kids asked about sex. Just answer the simple question they ask with a simple answer. Don't embelish.
The subject has never come up again with me. Maybe she talked to her mom about it later.
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The photographer who took Margaret W. Smith's photograph lives in or close to NYC!! I emailed her.
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About the tranny thing, I really don't worry about that at all, thanks to Mel and Barbara and others who have posted pics of going flat. I think they all look distinctly feminine (and pretty too), flat chest, short hair and all.
Yesterday someone told me about a documentary from about ten years ago about women living with breast cancer. The title was great, Titless Wonders.
Maybe what we really need is a website that gathers all the available info on going flat, especially pictures, so women (and others) can see what it looks like.
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How many of you are 6ft tall? I think that the transvestite comments are probably reserved for us very tall women. They are part of my reality I am sad to say.
We don't all arrive at this point with the same baggage. We don't live in the same environments. So whilst being breastless is a common factor, it may be the only common factor. I don't have an aching need to "see" flat women. I would simply like for women to know that living without breasts entirely is a viable option. That was never on the agenda when I was first diagnosed. I was inundated with information about reconstruction, prostheses and mastectomy clothing. At no point did anyone tell me that it was possible to live well without breasts.
I too imagine a booklet/website showing mastectomy in a more positive light.
To be honest I am really tired of the warrior amazon with her battle scars cliche. I am none of those things - I am just a human being with a messed up chest that would like to look and feel good.
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Greenfrog, I'm 5 ft. 10 in., and with my short hair and flat chest I often get addressed as "Sir." It is very dispiriting. I try to wear a few cues each day--breast forms or earrings or makeup or a girly article of clothing--but none of those things are very comfortable, so I resent having to do it.
When I was growing up, I always felt that people expected me to be more mature than I was because they assumed I was older than I was. Sometimes I feel that way as an adult too--that because I'm bigger, it's more unseemly when I whine.
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Greenfrog, there is a lady here who posted a bunch of pictures of herself with and without foobs, and I think she is around 6 feet.
I didn't mean to make light of your concern, sorry if it came across that way. I simply meant that in all the pictures I have seen so far of women who go flat, I have been struck by how little, to my eye anyway, the lack of breasts affects my reading of the woman as feminine.
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My hasband was having a hard time seeing me, experiencing me, as female with my haircut in this current style. He asked if I could 'girlie it up alittle.' I will wear earrings, wear softer clothing, I don't have a problem with a clear directive and an apparent need for a physical change in light of all we have been through since my diagnosis. It has been a bit rocky emotionally for me in the last few weeks but I feel like I am doing good work.
You folks have really helped. Barbrara, I really appreciate your insights. You are being very helpful in my process to understand the complexity of choices we face. Thanks for that.
I have an appointment with Carly Ries, the photographer who took Margaret W. Smith's photograph used in Fitness Magazine October 2012. She will come to the apartment and take my photograph. I am excited.
Melly
The Breat Pocket Project is coming along and the pockets are rolling in.
PM me if you would like my mailing address.
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No worries Momine, no offense taken. I just think there are some body shapes that may "suit" breastlessness better than others. I am quite enjoying flirting with androgyny actually. I have always loved Katharine Hepburn, Marlene Dietrich and thought they were immensely sexy. In frilly frocks and nailpolish I have always looked like a drag queen.
Hepburn at her most stunning - http://fashette.wordpress.com/2010/07/03/katharine-hepburn-the-masculine-woman/
Nagem - isn't it strange how people interpret height as an indicator of maturity and strength. Couldn't be farther from the truth in my case!
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I hear you green frog. At 5'9 I am the shortest of 4 siblings. My sister is 6', a brother 6'4" and another brother at 6'7". I have nieces that are 6'2" and have seen the general public treat them as 10 year olds when they were only 4, so I know exactly what you are talking about. I hope that after my mastectomy I am able to ignore the ignorant as well as I have for the past 53 years. They just aren't worth the negative energy.
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