I look for other flat chested women. A rant.
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Usually I have a high tolerance for pain, so it surprised me when I felt the need to take the Vicoden that was prescribed for about a month. I still feel the need to take something, but now it's a combo of Motrin and what used to be Tylenol.
I've also found that Arnica Gel takes care of the pain in my upper chest where breast tissue was removed.
Is that swirl of skin with a pointed tag of skin called a "dog ear," too? The doctor termed the "water balloons" on my sides at breast level as "dog ear flaps." Those have softened in the last couple of weeks and I can easily lay on my side now, but they are still an ugly nuisance.
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I may be at an extreme, but I stayed exactly 24 hours in the hospital for my bilateral mastectomy and sentinel-node biopsy and would have left sooner if I could have. I took no pain medication whatsoever after the anesthesia (which was nauseating) wore off. I was surprised at how easy the whole thing was--no more difficult than the lumpectomy I'd had a year earlier.
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Nagem, my experience was similar to yours. The pain medicine they gave me in the hospital was a morphine pump that they put on in recovery and they wouldn't take it off. I explained to them before surgery that I didn't want one but somebody didn't get the message. So then they had to give me injections of an anti-emetic. I also found that I had less pain from the mastectomy than I had from two previous large excisional biopsies. After the biopsies I had massive swelling and pain. The only reason I took Tylenol and Advil after release was because of the sentinel node biopsy. That little thing hurt more than anything and I had some cording.
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Thanks Ladies,
Everything sounds encouraging. I won't be having nodes removed since there is no evidence of disease. I do recall on my two previous lumpies that the node removal recovery was uncomfortable. I filled out the form today for the pre op testing so that will all be taken care of and as soon as I get the phone call I can proceed to the operating room.(I will be in Florida) I am hoping that it will be around the week of 9th December then I can go back to the sun after Christmas.
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Today when I was feeling down about losing my breasts, I thought of the proverb: I worried that I had no shoes until I met a man with no feet. And a few minutes later, when I looked up to cross the street, I saw a man with one leg on crutches, carrying his base guitar on his back. So I thought, well, I am only losing my breasts and I won't be disabled in any way so I guess I am very lucky.
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Painterly, that is a good point about the nodes.
As for the missing leg, that is exactly how I see it. It obviously sucks to lose the boobs, and I would rather keep all my body parts, but at least I only lost "optional" parts.
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http://flyoverfeminism.com/life-after-mastectomy-and-the-choice-against-reconstruction-an-interview/
Here is an article about opting out of reconstruction and the women is a uniboober.
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Geez, has life been difficult over here. A couple of weeks ago, my husband made some careless remarks about my appearance. He asked me to girlie it up because he was heterosexual.
I translate the first half to mean, can you please grow your hair. I have been keeping it short and playing with the concept of androgyny. I can give that to him.
In talking it through, he tells me that he needs for me to look more feminine, especially in the bedroom. That growing my hair will help him see my feminine side. I asked him to define what feminine means and he is unable. I asked him to please tell me when he experiences my femininity, and he has not yet uttered that word, he has told me I look nice, I am beautiful, but he has not yet said, you look feminine.
I told him that telling me he is heterosexual makes me feel like he thinks I am presenting as a man, and reminded him that I did not have a sex change, I had cancer.
I shared my thoughts on androgyny, which is, I see it as a fun and interesting experiment, that I don't understand the importance of gender in society and I think it is fun and playful to buck the norms. But that, since removing my breasts, I feel more female than I ever have before. That this new phase in my life has really made me start thinking about womanhood and feminism in ways that I had forgotten about and that it has opened new doors for me.
I asked him if he would like to see me wear breast forms and he says no.
We have not had sex in a long while.
I have always been a 'tom boy', fannel shirts, sweatshirts, backpacks (I never carry a purse), I don't wear make up, have never worn heels. I am not going to over compensate in the feminine department because I am breastless. That is just not me. He knows that.
He agrees with my decision not to reconstruct, he just needs some sort of a push to see me as more feminine. I don't know what to do with this. My hair will grow, I don't have a problem with the idea of growing my hair out to help my husband in this portion of the breast cancer journey.
In my Man's defense, he understands the impact of his words, he knows that he should have thought the comments through and has told me that he does not want his inability to communicate effectively to turn into paroxysms of insecurity on my part. I think he also thought it was a joke, an offhanded comment. But in this case I think joking masks real issues.
The bummer for me personally, is that, I had just begun to feel like the 'new me'. Like my outsides matched my insides. I hate cancer and all these emotional roller coasters, it isn't like I can get off and take a break or anything.
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Melly,
Couple of things. Just Google "Breast Pocket Project" and it is astounding how much comes up. Yesterday, I listened to the podcast interview. Loved it and of course, the coming to the realization that "No" was an option. YES YES YES, that made my day!!!!!
I come at this from a point of view that I am comfortable being flat, not at all comfortable being thought of as male. So with that in mind, I make the adjustments I think necessary to never raise the question and yet within comfortable parameters of still being me. So for instance, like you I never wear heels and not about to start. Not sure if this will help or inspire or not, but here goes. I think many of us, certainly I do, divide those we see into gender. It is a fraction of a second thing. If the question is not answered in that flash of a second then scrutiny sets in and the mind starts looking for other gender clues. Not saying it is right but am guessing nearly all of us do it whether we admit to it or not. So with that in mind, I pick a few things that pass the initial glance test. I have come to realize that is not necessary to become a caricature or a stranger to myself to pass. What I have also come to realize is that passing the glance test is a part of why people fail to see what is missing because they did not feel the need to scrutinize. I am so inspired by Katherine Hepburn because no matter how masculine inspired or androgynous some of her looks might have been, I have never once seen a photo or film of her that she didn't pass the glance test. She and Garbo along with others who followed later have shown me that androgyny and ultra feminine can still go together though there may be a bit of a fine line to follow to pull it off.
Barbara
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MT, so sorry that some ill chosen words are causing you this pain. I'll bet your husband regretted them the moment they came out of his mouth.
I remember saying to my dh one day, that without ovaries, uterus, breasts and with short hair, they would have to do a cheek swab to tell if I was male or female. He chuckled and said "I was thinking the same thing." I was taken aback, but also saw the humour in it. As he has never, ever shown anything but acceptance with my new look, I did not want to give it more importance.
It certainly is a trying time for both partners in our positions. I suspect that his feelings and thoughts are also on a roller coaster ride. I know my husband misses my breasts. But I also know that he would still miss them if I had fake ones put in. I hope you both can use this to help each other with both of your anger towards what cancer has taken and the insecurity that is in all of us at one time or another.
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MT1, BUMMER! You've been doing wonderfully well to get the publicity out there for all of us who opt not to reconstruct. I'm so proud to have made the connection with you and to add my voice through your Breast Pocket project and in public comments wherever the subject comes up ...and that's most usually a conversation instigated by or with you.
I know our husbands are each of different generations ... mine is 77. I believe our human actions/reactions are the same despite gender or generations. From my experience whenever I have been "too public" or gotten "too much attention" for anything over the years my husband's reaction had/has been to pull back/to emotional distance himself from me. This was quite a quandary to me, because he said/says he's proud of me for "whatever". I finally figured out that it was/is more a case of feeling left out/behind as well as a bit of reticence about the reflection of the public knowledge/connection to him.
Presently through this whole ordeal of dealing with cancer and my decision of how to deal with it, he has been there for me ALL the way. However, he is not entirely comfortable for me to talk about being "breast free" ... to broadcast personal information ... information that he seemingly feels reflects on him and our personal (sexual) relationship.
Then there is the aspect that something really has been taken away from the man in each our lives. And that is not only our breasts, but the women we were before this battle we are forced to fight. Nothing in any of our lives stays the same. However, big changes have happened at an accelerated pace for us and our partners and families. Time ... we all need time to catch up with our newly redefined selves.
I am so pleased to have "found" you. Your public voice has been instrumental in making me feel comfortable with presentling my breast-free body. My initial intention was to wear a bit of padding so as not to make other people uncomfortable or for them to take notice. Thank you.
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MT - Barbara, Pip and Granellie have all mentioned thoughts that popped into my mind and expressed them well.
I hate these stupid rollercoasters, too. It really takes so much emotional energy to wrap one's head around what it's like to have a mastectomy. I don't think our husbands can understand since they've never had these secondary sex parts that have played a role in our body image since puberty, been a direct source of feedback of our sexual attractiveness by the opposite sex, and have often played a part in the development of our sexuality. And that description just glosses over the subject, as it involves so much more.
I am glad your man is aware he could have communicated more directly and in a way that is sensitive and respectful. However, I think this issue is one of the ways in which we often experience our partners wanting us to get back to life as we were before BC. We try to move on, find new ground, and somehow incorporate our experience with our pre-BC selves. What they often wish is that we'd go back to doing things with and for them like we used to so our relationships feel familiar again. And for men, that often means attention! You have been the focus of attention since your diagnosis; your needs came first, your ability to do certain tasks and responsibilities have been put aside, and throughout your diagnosis and treatment you have had the support of your doctors, nurses, and other medical/therapeutic professionals. Unless your partner has attended a support group, he's had only a miniscule amount of support and attention from others while you dealt with BC.
This need by our partners to have things return to the way they were will surface time and again for a while. It is a long learning curve for them. Sex is a biggie, but there are many other tasks/roles they want us to resume. And I mean, pronto, because the BC is gone and you have now completed treatments!
I cannot tell you how long it took my husband to come to terms with: 1) how the reconstruction pain practically incapacitated me, and as a result caused a lot of emotional distress, frustration, and depression; 2) the effect of lymphedema on my ability to do certain tasks around the house and yard; 3) that my not doing things - the tasks/roles I had previously performed and taken on in the relationship - was not a sign of laziness; and 4) the fact that certain things don't matter to me any more, and that there are new things that do, as the experience has changed me as many experiences in life do. I cannot undo what has happened to me, how that has felt, what it means to me.
And if it helps at all, I will admit that my sexual relationship with my husband has been in the crapper since all this started. We have talked about it, and it is something we have agreed to temporarily put on hold as I sort through my experience, PTSD, chronic pain, lymphedema, and deconstruction.
I have only recently tried to get our house back in order, as I had been working on projects and they were left unfinished. I have only recently been able to return to exercising and lifting weights with a special trainer (enrolled as a participant in ongoing weighlifting/LE study at the University of Pennsylvania). After deconstructing over a year ago, I have been learning how to dress my new body and feel confident about my appearance again. As I have physically/emotionally recovered from the chronic pain and am able to manage my LE, I am once again participating in some of the activities my husband and I enjoyed together. Over the past five years, I have also been dealing with an aging mother, helping her transition from independent living to assisted living, and this year to skilled care. I have been involved in managing her medical, legal and financial needs, as my father is deceased and I am an only child. So, while it certainly feels like I have been moving in mud, things are proceeding forward in many aspects of my life.
I am grateful to have a husband who loves me very much, and after many unfortunate circumstances that could have easily driven us apart, we are closer than ever. And that is why my next priority is working on getting our sex life back in motion. It's really all on me, as he has been much more okay than I have with all the permutations of my body over the past few years. And I am trying hard to pay attention to his other needs as I am no longer so self focused. He certainly deserves it, as he has been amazing at helping and caring for me, even though he was at the end of his rope at times.
Well, I don't know how helpful this was, or if it is really on target for what you are experiencing. I hope it hasn't strayed too far into my experience without addressing anything you might be feeling. I wish I had the right things to say to comfort and make you feel better right now, as this relationship stuff can really suck. BC is one twisted mother that really messes with our lives in so many ways.0 -
Your perspectives are all very relevant to me! Thank you for writing about this.
Pain after BMX? YES--4 weeks of Vicodin here! After that, Ibuprofen and Gabapentin were enough.
I'm pretty much addicted to t-shirts. I don't know WHAT would come unhinged if I tried to wear something "sexy." Those are flourescent, blinking quotation marks, by the way. It may be too early for me to see it, but I just can't SEE it.
My scars look better to me every day. When the pt tested my range of motion this week, she exclaimed that it was truly remarkable considering the surgery. I went home so proud of myself, as if I had accomplished something really worthwhile. Because it is worth something to ME.
My husband? Well, it just seems to me this thing strikes people so differently depending on where they are in the lifecycle. I already have the family and kids I've always wanted. But, as Tina brings up, that means there's a lot of work to be done at my house. My husband definitely works WAY HARDER every day to hold up the family, especially the end I used to hold up. In my mind, I wonder: WHAT IS HIS REWARD?
The stereotypical thing men really want from women is a goner at my house. Although I do keep markers in case he wants to draw it on me.
Because he deserves every happiness AND I want to make him the happiest husband in the world, I often find my mind circling around a cesspool of impossibilities these days. My notions are up for major revision!
He says, "I'm just happy you're alive." I know he means it. He's almost 60, though.
Do you know, though, how I knew he wasn't just another boyfriend? We were on a date, walking around town and my bunion (foot) was hurting. He took me into Dardano's shoe store and asked me to try on shoes until I found the most comfortable ones. I saw some pretty ones...well, a few...but he saw through me. He insisted they be comfortable. I kept trying more and more on and deep inside I knew it when I had the PERFECTLY COMFORTABLE pair on. But they were butt ugly. And I mean BUTT. I thought secretly, "I want these shoes, but he will think I'm not sexy." I kept trying for the pretty ones.
But he saw through me. They cost over $200. And I was a single mom at the time, so that was basically a month's food budget right there. But he bought them. And I walked across the street in the most comfortable shoes I have ever worn. Somewhere near the yellow line, I knew. I knew that he was the one.
Thank you for reminding me of this. I forgot about it until I was trying to answer this thread. I am too proud to wear those shoes because I think they are FUGLY. And they are!!!! But the happiness of our family is really somewhere in my head if I can just sit back and let the love in.
I've seen you on tv, MT. You are possibly the most feminine person I've seen. Period.
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So many excellent points made, you are a very interesting and thoughtful bunch of women.
For what it is worth, Mel, I think you are very feminine. Obviously this is not an easy time for your husband, and it probably has more to do with that than with the details of your appearance.
One thing I have noticed in myself post-BC is that I am more feisty and more direct. It is the result of some combination of looking death in the face, having operated on seriously reduced physical capacity for a while, dealing with doctors and hospitals, losing body parts etc. It clearly takes my poor husband slightly aback at times, although he is dealing fairly well with the new me on the whole. But there are changes way beyond the merely physical ones.
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I am so impressed by all your thoughts, and you all help me beyond words. My first thought on what your husband said is to just let it go. Don't own that thought. Certainly you are very feminine MT, you are very attractive. We cannot accept or own any comment that was just shot out there, he may have had a bad day.
Then you all have made me think about what our husbands have lost. We lost our breasts, but they lost them too! I never really thought of that before, up until now it was all about me, *my* loss, but husband lost a nice set of boobs that he enjoyed.
I think about the way I dress probably too much. I am comfortable being flat, meaning I feel physically wonderful when I have nothing constricting me. But I also toy with the idea that I do get up every day and put make-up on, and I say I do that for self esteem. So what harm would it be for me to put a cami on with small microbead forms for husband to have that "visual? I am thinking about this, not really asking a question. I don't know that answer.
I am letting my hair grow longer, maybe chin length would feel very good to me and I am almost there. I don't like it at all that at age 57 I don't know how to dress anymore, I forgot how to be flirtatious, and I sort of forgot trying to feel "sexy", but I am so very thankful for all the honest talking here, so I can wrap my head around it.
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I agree and have the same thing happening as Momine . . "more feisty and direct" . . . life is TOO short for some of the crap I have put up with in the past from coworkers, family members, wayward adult children . . . . etc . . .
Talking/thinking/dealing with anything romantic/sexual/intimate is beyond my resource at this time . . . TOOOOOOO much bad history . . will I ever be sexual again? I hate this part of the journey. Of course, the frustration was pre-cancer as well, so . . probably not totally lost by BC . . . . sometimes I hate my life.
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For playtime with hubby, we've found that sexy underpants and silicone foobs in a cami provide the visuals that get the heterosexual male hot to trot. Hey, they're just geared that way, so what the hell. At first I felt like a blowup doll (and he'd laugh when I'd say that), but if that's all it takes to work for us, why not?
We have fun shopping for panties together -- something I'd have felt self-conscious about doing before, especially when we get to the register to pay. But I find I really don't care about that anymore. I choose to be amused!
Have fun out there,
Ellen
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Ellen, I think that is an excellent slogan: "I choose to be amused."
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Ladies,
Question for you. We have talked around this and what we would like the world to look like but.... I am starting to think maybe I would like to do some swimming. My life and necessities of life mean it would be very occasional and likely in a forum where all ages might be there such as a hotel on vacation. So far the two experiences I remember being discussed here were adult women but then the video of Melly appeared on TV. I would hope the station did not feel it necessary to tell people to send the youngsters out of the room.
I have a one-piece suit that is fairly high in front with narrow raised bands of color across the chest. Obviously flat but nothing shows. By today's standards, overall a pretty modest suit as I felt Melly's was in the video.
I have an event coming up next year in Kansas City at a hotel with a pool. I am inclined to take advantage of it. As I would have before BC, wear a coverup back and forth from the room but not care a whit who was in the pool or the time of day. If I thought I "should" feel compelled to wear foobs or sneak down under cover of darkness, it would take away any possible joy, as if I should feel guilty and if so for what? Granted children are not an everyday part of my life. Other than neighborhood children in passing, my life is primarily around adults. Must say, I have mowed the lawn many times in a tank top flat as can be and so I really don't see the difference.
Part of the reason I ask is it seems those who have ventured out have only done so in an adult environment. There is a community pool with open swimming that is available to me at a time I might actually be able to go. Another reason the question is on my mind. Thoughts??
Barbara
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Barbara, I don't think kids would notice. The kids I know are too busy diving, floating, rejoicing in the water to notice anything else going on. I think even teenagers would be so engrossed in their own activity that they wouldn't notice. I've come to the conclusion that the only ones that notice are other women who have had breast cancer.
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I agree with river rat - kids don't care . . . SWIM AWAY!!!!!
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same here!
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I love the "I choose to be amused" comment, too. Good for you!
Barbara, I have done most of my swimming at hotels. My suit is one I had prior to being flat. I removed the padding after wearing a couple of times. It felt weird swimming with those empty cups; they resisted the water as I moved around. I took a pair of scissors and cut those things right out, and that's the suit I wear since it feels okay with my truncal LE. It has a large pattern and is modestly cut. I first swam at an outdoor pool where my parents lived. Mostly older people and no one paying attention. I am more concerned about the concave areas showing vs looking flat.
The first time I swam at a hotel, there were two guys in their late 20's or early 30's sitting at the end of the pool with their feet in the water. I felt self conscious but reminded myself they probably wouldn't look at a 55 yr woman. I also gave myself the "big picture talk", the one that tells myself to stand up straight, present my chest proudly - I have been through so much there is no reason to worry what anyone thinks. So I took my coverup off and walked over to the pool, past the two guys and stepped in. They barely noticed me, looked but then continued talking. I let myself forget they were there and moved around the pool, doing what felt good. They were gone by the time I got out.
My approach is the same no matter who is there. I think if you just do what you've always done, remind yourself to relax, no one will really think too much about it. Maybe I have become so accustomed to seeing myself noticeably flat in clothes that part of me doesn't even think it looks scary or weird. I found that once I lost my self consciousness, people began interacting with me just like before my mastectomy. When I had my implants I was just as self conscious about how things fit or in pain. It is wonderful to finally be at ease with people as I go about my day. I have missed that so much. It's been lonely to feel different or caught up in pain, not totally present with what I was doing.0 -
Kids would definately not pay any attention.....have fun.
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Barbara, I have taken my kids to the pool countless times since the surgery. It's a 25 yard pool at a fairly large fitness club that attracts families with young kids, as well as a steady stream of lap-swimmers who use the other side. There's also a kiddie wading pool.
I'm very comfortable with myself and how I look, and I go flat all the time everywhere, so I never considered doing anything else at the pool. At first I felt a little naked, but nobody has ever said a word, adult or child.
If someone did, I am sure that my answer would have been limited by how much my own mental health would allow me to say about it, not any worries about a kid's. They're curious and resilient, and I'd be glad to expand what they know about the world and bodies. When I was first going to the pool, I was simply unable to talk about my cancer or anything resulting from it without a lot of personal pain.
People have inquired about my lymphedema sleeve, and at first my answers were awkard. It wasn't embarrassment, it was having to talk about something that caused me so much fear and anguish. I'm much smoother now. I just explain it in simple terms but not to do that in a way that cuts people off from more questions. I think it's rude to ask strangers about their bodies, but it's not been meant to do me harm and now I don't mind.
I say, enjoy your swim.
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Thank you Ladies. Gosh I have been on a roller coaster. Your replies gave me a really good cry today.
This is what I have decided to do:
I am going to ask for a perscription for breast forms from my doctor tomorrow (as luck would have it, I have my Zoladex shot scheduled). I think perhaps my man might like to see me in a pair, in private, for sexual pleasure.
I won't wear them in public. (Not right now anyway. It doesn't feel right to me. It goes against my grain.)
I will grow my hair.
Wear lots of color, and scarves, which suits me as a textile artist anyway.
Proactively, this is something that I can do to affect some change (hopefully positive) in my relationship. I still want to play with androgyny, but there are many ways to do that.
I am quite pasionate about wearing color, prints, textures. My husband bought me a Liberty Print blouse today! L-I-B-E-R-T-Y print....The cotton is so soft, the print, so. Yummy. I look forward to wearing this shirt to tatters. We have been tender footed but regaining ourselves together. It is all good. All these thoughts are heavy. It is time to play. We plan to check out Williamsburg, a new (to us) part part of Brooklyn, on Saturday. We love exploring the city, so. Fun time together, planned. Check!
Change in conversation.
I am purchasing the dress form. My friend Cricket came and took my measurements. I want to double check and have a tailor measure me, just to make sure.
I shopped for clothing today and started daydreaming about clothing for us Half/Flatties.
Have you read this?
http://flyoverfeminism.com/life-after-mastectomy-and-the-choice-against-reconstruction-an-interview/
I love the description of the mastectomy bathing suit:
The dialogue that does exist, both in breast cancer literature and in the media, is focused predominantly on making the body appear “whole,” “sexy,” and “unmarred.” Swimsuit lines such as Veronica Brett promise to make breast cancer survivors look “sexier” than ever before. The luxury swimsuits carefully hide the missing or scarred body part with expertly placed rushing and folding of fabric.
All that rushing and striving fabric. The point in wanting clothing for our new bodies isn't in hiding, it is in celebrating. I want to wear clothing that says, 'Hell yes!'
No hiding! You don't need to flaunt it either, but all clothing should demonstrate confidence in the person wearing it. And as breast cancer survivors, don't we want our clothing to reflect our beauty, rather than mask it? We might have one breast or no breasts but we still have needs. I think it is odd that the fashion industry hasn't addressed this.
I want my clothing to expertly address my beautiful body. I want beautiful lingerie.
Starak- The JCC pool is an adult croud. They do schedule events for children, but we do not cross paths. The YMHA intermingles childrens events with our pool program. Sometimes mothers will change their daughters along side our group, use the same benches. In this case, I act as I would inany other woman's locker room, but I do not hide, I dress/undress as I normally would and noone has had a problem or said anything about it. Just go. The water is just right for our needs. I love it.
Thanks all. That was tough to share, but I am OK with having done so. It was worth a good cry.
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Mel, I am glad you are finding ways to move forward. I find myself wearing a lot more color after the BMX. Before I rarely wore any colors, but now I do it quite a lot. One scarf I particularly love is silk, long and orange. You can see it here:
The nice thing with that kind of scarf is that even if you wear something quite severe and androgynous, a scarf like that signals "girl" anyway.0 -
Thank you all for your support. Everything you said validates what I had expected and hoped you would say.
Here is a photo of the suit. I removed the foam bra and lining in order for it to lay totally flat. I think it meets Melly's description of doesn't flaunt but doesn't hide either.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/starak_/8124557753/in/photostream
Barbara
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What a lovely photo, Momine! Elegant.
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Hey, thanks Racoon, you are sweet.
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