I look for other flat chested women. A rant.
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Momine, somehow that argument for immediate TE's and women not having to see themselves breast-less reminds me of all the things "women" have been accused of not being up to (at least here in the states) in the past: running marathons, driving, voting.
I know they do not, not, not plug a prosthetic foot onto the stump of a new below-the-knee amputee after finishing the surgery, so that the person never sees themselves without something there. It's just not how it's done. But I am also pretty darn sure that people missing limbs get more stares than we do.
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I agree totally Momine! I have no problem looking at myself at all.
I have always taken care of myself and enjoyed dressing well. I have found since my Surgery, like you did, that I have had to rethink some of the things I wear, but not in a bad way!
I have found that I like to push the envelope a bit. I have found camisoles and slightly higher neck sleeveless tank tops that look great with skinny jeans or capris. I don't want to just wear the cover up stuff that I was wearing in the first few weeks post surgery. I find that people who know I have just had a Mx tell me " Gosh, You'd never know!" that outfit looks fantastic. It is summer here and we have had a heatwave so it isn't unusual to see people wearing this kind of stuff. I feel great and have found fantastic lingerie that fit the prosthesis well. I am only 7 weeks post op, so I am learning all the time.
Momine, you mentioned shoes, oh my!, I hear you about the shoes! Mine is handbags too.
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Oh dear, I love shoes. In my younger days, I would buy matching shoes and bags!
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Why didnt my doc tell me this.. Im allowed buy more shoes now...
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Outfield, I hadn't thought about it that way, but you have a point. In general, I find it quite annoying how ready doctors are to chalk up symptoms to "anxiety" and the like if the patient is female. This supposed inability to face a flat chest may fall in the same category.
I do want to say that it may be very difficult for some, and that should certainly be respected and taken into account. It just bugs me when it is assumed.
So glad I clued you all into the shoe thing :P
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I have had an interesting experience. I was taking with friend about my wardrobe, when another woman joined the conversation (well endowed) and she said "I wish I didn't have to lug these girls around".
I have had this happen before and I never say anything back, but it makes ME feel bad. Why do women who are big say such a thoughtless thing, do they think it makes me feel better? my own mother, who has always been very proud of her breasts even said it to me once.
Anyway my friend went crazy on them, to never ever wish for such a thing, because that is a wish for breast cancer.
I felt good about her reaction because now I know how to answer this rude comment.
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Crystalphm, as some one who was overly endowed before breast cancer and bmx, I can kind of understand why the woman said what she did. When I had breasts, I could not buy bras that fit properly. I couldn't buy clothing that fit me. If it fit my chest, it was too big everywhere else. I had sores and indentations on my shoulders from bra straps. I couldn't run and had difficulty with other forms of exercise because my breasts got in my way. I got unwanted attention from men when I was younger. I was teased by other kids when I was young. Being large was not easy. While I miss my breasts now, I remember years when I hated them.
She didn't think about how her words would effect you, but I would cut her some slack.0 -
I have to agree with Lisa-e about cutting some slack. The woman probably didn't mean it the way it sounded plus there are times when we are more sensitive to things relating to breasts. Most of the time I could give a rat's ass that I don't have breasts anymore but there have been a few moments when a comment hits me wrong. I have a cousin who was so large breasted she had to have reduction surgery. Large breasts can cause a lot of back problems.
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The person who insulted me with her comment on my breasts was the plastic surgeon who assisted with my bmx. She told me that I would have to have breast reduction surgery if I wasn't having a mastectomy. Not that I might have considered breast reduction (which I did - believe me) but that I would have to. I was so angry because I felt like she was imposing her aesthetic preference on me while I was still actively mourning the upcoming loss of my breasts.
She did do a good job planning the incisions for my surgery - no dog ears and my chest looks pretty good. But I still don't like her.0 -
Outfield, I also had OP surgery for my BMX. The usual practice in this area is to admit at least 1-2 days, I didn't even bother to ask. I HATE hospitals, don't trust anyone in them, so BS agreed to let me go as soon as possible. DH saw my chest before I did, took me a long time to actually LOOK, even though I did sort of see it when we changed dressings, and I learned to empty the drains within a couple of days.
I don't think back on that time mostly - it is in the past and cannot be changed, and is now irrelevant. Moving forward. Making choices to hopefully make my future a good one.
It has been 16 months since BMX, and I still have pain issues, but they are gradually getting better. I tried various bras, camisoles, prostheses - most made me even more uncomfortable, except the silicone prostheses helped calm the chest pain but exacerbated the arm pain. It was and continues to be a balancing act. But when I look at myself naked or clothed, I do not cringe, do not cry. It is what it is, battle scars, the scars of a courageous woman who is battling breast cancer on a daily basis, and who intends to complete my mission and goals: "Independence and Functional" and "Surround myself with beauty and joy."
And now, ladies, I need to go online shopping for a new Easter dress....0 -
Hey there ladies:
Facing a L MX, most likely, and I want flatness. Partial MX in 2008; I knew it would probably come to this. My partner (of 17 years) has always casually discussed that she'd want implants, if it were her -- I know she'd prefer me to get them. I want total flatness. I don't have to convince you guys, certainly. It just doesn't make any sense: the multiple surgeries, time away from my small children, the pain of TE's, infection risk. I can't figure out why people do it. And the asymmetry at the end of it all, in many cases, would bother me a lot.
Anyway. I sound adamant, but I need courage. I face a million tests tomorrow -- everyone's at high alert for local recurrence. I haven't thought about chemo or rads. But I need courage about everyone's response to my decision not to reconstruct (and to have BMX even if the other one isn't involved).
Hoping there will be a flatfest 2013..
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Hey Bobogirl,
My partner and I went through the same thing, she wanted me to reconstruct but in the end she revealed that she was worried that I would move through the world differently or that people would make it hard for me to adjust by staring, etc. She didn't say this so bluntly initially though, and I thought she was reluctant for me to be flat for other reasons. Eventually, two friends of mine that are lawyers held a mock trial for my breasts and their reconstruction. A group of us (with a couple of bottles of wine) considered all the pros and cons of the options, and eventually a guilty verdict with the sentence of flat for life was handed out:) It was a pretty unconventional way to make up my mind, but it helped both my partner and I see that people in my life who mattered would understand the choices I made and reasons I made them. I think whatever you choose will be fine (big help, right?) as long as you are truly comfortable with it. As it turns out, I got an infection during surgery that hospitalized me for over two weeks...if i had gotten TE's they would have had to come out and my infection may have been even worse. Anyway, blah blah blah:) Good luck and hope all goes well!
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Linda, I'm so glad the pain is gradually getting better. 16 months may seem like a long time, but for all that nerve damage I don't think it is.
Bobogirl, I share your thoughts about reconstruction. I think the thing that sets me apart from most of the other posters on this board, which amazes me repeatedly, is that I didn't get pressure from anybody to reconstruct. At the time of my BMX I made it completely clear that I was not going to talk about immediate reconstruction, and since then nobody has pushed talking about it at all. A few medical providers have asked, and simply accepted my answer. What amazes me is how uncommon my experience seems to be. Maybe it's me - I can be pretty darn forceful - or maybe it's just luck.
I had no desire for numb lumps on my chest. It doesn't seem reasonable for me to put myself through more surgery for something that would be really just for other people's benefit. Living flat took some getting used to, but I really don't think people notice as much as I thought they would, and I'm to the point now where I would not be upset if they did notice. Part of that is getting past the shock and horror of the cancer diagnosis itself. When I couldn't talk about it easily, I was worried people would notice and wonder. Now it's becoming a part of all the things that have happened that have made me who I am, and I can talk about breast cancer pretty easily. But honestly, I think most people don't notice.
Do you know why your partner would prefer you to have reconstruction? What Cooka says sounds like something my mom would have said, although she never did. There's caring in it, but I would want that person to know it's my decision to make myself vulnerable to that possibility. Is it a sexual thing? That was a big loss for me, but reconstruction would not have been at all helpful. Somebody a long time ago, I think on this board, posted that she hadn't completely gotten over noticing the loss during intimate moments, but that with time it became a much briefer noticing and she could move on from it. That has also been my experience. I imagine that could be true for a partner, too. Or is it something else?
Good luck with the tests tomorrow.
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I almost forgot! My feet were 1/2 size bigger after chemo than they were 4 years earlier when I got pregnant. It seems both things caused them to get longer and wider. They're not swollen at all. The only shoes that fit were the ones I bought 12 years ago to fit over an aircast, so lots of shoe-shopping for me (yippee).
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Hi Cooka, I just love the mock trial idea!
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Bobo, first of all, you do not need to decide now. Take care of the cancer, have your BMX, ask the surgeon to make it nice and clean, then take your time for the pros and cons of recon. When it was first presented to me, it sounded as if I would miss my chance if I did not have TEs placed at BMX time. It was only later that I found out it doesn't really matter. The way I see it, prosthetics are silicone you can put on and take off at will and that looks good in a bra. Implants are silicone that you have to lug around 24/7 and that usually only looks good in a bra anyway. But perhaps you end up deciding 3 years from now that you would like new boobs for Christmas, and if that happens, you can always go get some.
Cooka, I love the idea of a tit-trial. Excellent idea to hash out all the reasons why and why not.
Outfield, leave it to you to need new shoes for real
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Cooka, the trial sounds like a great idea!!! I didn't intend to reconstruct either, but my BS referred me to a PS and DH said I should at least check it out to see what my options were. Meeting with the PS confirmed my decision to NEVER reconstruct. Everyone else told me I could always change my mind, but I have no desire to go through more procedures, pain, risks. I also had post-op infection and would have probably had more difficulty with implants. I also don't even have any desire for numb lumps - I LOVE that phrase!!! And one woman I know is a singer, had prophylactic BMX and TEs some years ago, she told me the TEs put so much pressure on her chest that she actually lost a small amount of lung volume - which the PS had not informed her of beforehand, but told her, yes, that was one of the risks - and so now she has lost her ability to hold very long notes (she is still a fantastic singer - you would never know it - but I know it really bugs her that she cannot sing as she did before). And with flaps, there is damage to other parts of your body, and sticking something underneath muscles that were meant to function is just another way BC robs one of functional abilities.
Bobo, you really do NOT have to decide now. I really wish they would stop referring patients to PS during the most stressful time, unless immediate complete reconstruction is being considered. That is not the case for most of us. Delaying the referral for most of us would allow us to focus on treating the cancer, not the cosmetics. First cancer, then body image. And delaying would also allow a more thoughtful approach to reconstruction if that is the decision - there are several options, and making decisions about them can get very complicated if you are also trying to make decisions about cancer treatment.0 -
I do think that pushing women into recon at the point of breast removal is because so many might not do it, once they've recovered from the initial surgery and had time to process what has happened.
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Did anyone else see this? It is referring to that lovely tattoo we shared on this site a few pages back.
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Bobo, I switched from lumpectomy to BMX a week and a half before surgery. My surgeon did start to talk to me about reconstruction and I had told him my husband and I had talked about it thoroughly and I absolutely did not want it. He did say that at the time of surgery he could give me a little something that would be the equivalent of an A cup (I was a D) and could spare the nipples but there would be no sensation due to the nerve being cut and the nipples may not survive the surgery. I did tell him that that didn't appeal to me either. My feeling was and still is that it would be more for society to be comfortable with me than it was for me to be comfortable with me. I have never regretted my choice and am so comfortable being out in public flat. I think a lot of it has to do with how well you are prepared mentally for this change in your body. I made sure my husband was just as well informed about the whole process. He did not want me to go through more surgery and my feeling was why go through it if they just sit there like lumps. (I do not mean to offend anyone who has had reconstruction. These are my feelings as to why I did not reconstruct.) I enjoyed the sensation I had from my breasts and I think it would have been harder to adjust to "breasts" with no sensation. Good luck with your surgery. Make sure your partner is very informed about what one has to go through to have reconstruction. Also, check out web sites that show reconstructed breasts. It's an eye opener.
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Alexandria,
I think you're right that some women who don't have immediate reconstruction realize they don't want it after all and are glad they weren't rushed into it. I have a friend who wasn't a candidate for immediate recon and was later so glad that she'd had to wait. She's been happily breast-free for years.
But, to be fair, the reason some doctors push for immediate reconstruction is that the results can be better (less scarring, lots of pliable extra skin), plus the woman only needs one surgery instead of the two that would be necessary if reconstruction were pursued later.
What upsets me, though, is when doctors try to talk women into reconstruction when they are under so much stress from cancer diagnosis and aren't sure what they want. If a woman absolutely knows she wants reconstruction, fine, then doing it at the time of the mastectomy makes sense. Otherwise, doctors should encourage women to wait.
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I wish the doctors hadn't pressured me into immediate TE placement. I originally hadn't considered reconstruction. Now, after rads and a lot of thought, I wish I had just gone flat to begin with. I seem to be getting a lot of flack when I mention that I'm considering it, instead of finishing up with the implant route.
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My family has all been very anti-reconstruction, but would support me if I chose it. I did see a PS just so I knew my options, but no way.....
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Tonight I impulsively stole the temporary tattoos from my kids' new bottle of Vitamin D, and I now have a blue and red leaping fish and a monkey as nipples. I was going to ask the kids' permission, but greedy me, I just went and did it.
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You crack me up Outfield!
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Erica, you may be right that the results may be better and surgery easier - which is sad considering how hard the surgery is under the best of circumstances. But I'm sorry, there's money in it. Lots of money in it. Do you think that the BC doesn't get referral fees? Have you seen the articles where PS are unhappy because not all women are getting immediate recon? My BC said to me not only that I wouldn't feel like a woman without numb lumps on my chest (she didn't use those words , btw), but that the majority of women who wait 2 years never get reconstruction. If you think about it, that means that most women do just fine flat once the shock of losing natural breasts wears off. So they need to get us early - when we're still mourning and fearing the loss of something that society values so much, when we can be persuaded to undergo additional risk and surgery in order to think that we'll be just the same after surgery instead of having numb lumps - actually, let me be more acurate - the pain producing lumps that have no sexual feeling and that simulate the appearance of natural breasts.
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Alexandria, I normally am dubious about such theories, but in this particular case, I think you are defnitely on to something. If women really felt so terrible about it all, why would so many choose to remain flat? I also thought that "awareness" campaign for recon, using some fairly dim folk singer as the front, was really sleazy. It was supposedly a foundation, except even a brief google quickly revealed that all the money came from the association of PSs.
It definitely IS a loss, mainly, as you say, of sexual feeling. However, I do not feel diminished as a female. I am just as female and feminine as I always was, even if I do not have all the requisite parts anymore. I hope this is not offensive, but I feel far more empathy for transsexuals now, because it is easier for me to understand how one can identify strongly with a given gender, even if the equipment isn't there.
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I think you're definitely onto something, Alexandria. It's upsetting, but I do think breast surgeons and plastic surgeons often work together in encouraging reconstruction--I don't know if referral fees are involved, but when both work at the same hospital, it certainly increases the hospital's revenue.
My only point was that if a woman is absolutely certain she wants reconstruction, it makes sense to do it immediately. If not, for all the reasons we've been talking about, it's much better to delay. My breast surgeon, who didn't pressure me at all, said exactly that to me.
I agree with you, Momine, about feeling just as feminine as ever. It surprised me a bit, as I wasn't sure what to expect.
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The problem is that women are being pushed into recon at a time when they're most vulnerable. Yes, some would want reconstruction no matter what - but how many would, if given the time to think and adjust to flat life, would choose it.
In terms of feeling feminine - honestly, I am more bothered by the jowls I seem to be developing and the pudgy stomach than the lack of breasts. I am an old hippie, hanging around in jeans and my husband's shirts while I write, but I do clean up pretty good for legal clients, court. and for special occasions. I do not feel like any less of a woman for being flat. My husband does not desire me any less for being flat.
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Alexandria, I hear you on the belly. I am seriously considering getting mine fixed. Now that we cleared out the old, internal scar tissue, it is obvious that the problem is just loose skin. That can be fixed with a mini-tuck.
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