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Will 30% of Early Stage (1-IIIA) go on to metastasize??

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  • BarredOwl
    BarredOwl Member Posts: 261
    edited March 2018
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    Hi exercise_guru:

    No, I haven't researched that, although I feel virtuous when consuming crucifers or cooked exotic mushrooms, as I ponder all the potentially healthful effects of cruciferous beta-carotene, lutein, zeaxanthin, indoles (e.g., indole-3-carbinol), and isothiocyanates (e.g., sulforaphane) or strange mushroom triterpenes and polysaccharides.

    BarredOwl

  • lisey
    lisey Member Posts: 300
    edited February 2018
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    Thanks Barred. If they have to test the original tumor, I think I'm out of luck. Hopefully they figure all this out quickly so even if we do go to Stage 4, it becomes a livable disease.

    Also, Here is fun read about how Aspargus, Legumes, Nuts and other healthy food can cause cancer... maybe. UGH! https://www.sciencealert.com/a-new-study-is-linking-asparagus-to-the-spread-of-cancer-and-the-internet-is-freaking-out?perpetual=yes&limitstart=1

  • solfeo
    solfeo Member Posts: 253
    edited February 2018
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    Regarding the asparagine study, they do say it doesn't cause cancer. It might make some cancers more likely to spread. That is an important distinction. They are already targeting asparagine to treat a type of leukemia, so it very well could prove to be a factor in other cancers.

    However, these studies are usually conducted in a vacuum. The mice they studied were triple negative, and not receiving conventional treatment for cancer. In order for asparagine to make cancer spread you would have to have the right kind of cancer cells in your body. If whatever treatment you have done or continue to do has dealt with the cancer, there won't be any there to spread.

    We all know there is a risk of metastisis, and this may prove to be one of the mechanisms scientists can target to prevent it, but I doubt it will turn out that changing your diet would make much difference. You can't avoid asparagine completely because it is in so many other foods besides asparagus.

    I had just finished off our second pot of asparagus soup in a week when I ran across this news. I was like, DAMN! I'm already on a very restricted diet and I feel like I'm running out of choices. I always like to err on the side of caution so I'll probably eat less asparagus soup, but I'm not going to stop eating asparagus all together.
  • couragement
    couragement Member Posts: 29
    edited February 2018
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    Stephaniebc, I read your posts with interest about meditating on death. Delighted to see it. I am a long time meditator and enjoy many Indo-Tibetan meditations on death. I read a great article about an app that reminds you of death daily which I gather will be a bit much for many folks, but I thought the concept was interesting. Here is favorite quote of mine:

    image

    BarredOwl, I always delight in your thoughtful posts and I wondered if you had seen much of Ruth Patterson's work at UCSD. I am posting a link here to an interview with her. A 40% reduction with few side effects is rather wowing! I am practicing Time Restricted Feeding and enjoying it tremendously as I can't take AI's. I see an oncologist at UCSD as a second opinion on everything and even they have never suggested her work to me when I have asked for any info on supporting myself naturally on this path. Dr. Rhonda Patrick's videos on broccoli sprouting are terrific as she gets down to the nuts and bolts and even amounts needed to get benefits.


    My best to everyone. May we all be well.

  • marijen
    marijen Member Posts: 2,181
    edited March 2018
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    BarredOwl, why are you removing so many of your posts?


  • thinkingpositive
    thinkingpositive Member Posts: 564
    edited March 2018
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    not sure where to post .... just got denied my annual MRI by insurance. This ever happen to anyone?

  • muska
    muska Member Posts: 224
    edited March 2018
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    May I ask why you were getting annual MRIs?

  • klvans
    klvans Member Posts: 199
    edited March 2018
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    My MO told me without any treatment my recurrence rate would be between 20 to 30%. Interestingly, both my MO and surgeon told me those statistics don't classify local vs metastasized recurrence. In other words, all recurrence is lumped together. Treatment makes a difference. No one knows what the future holds. Why not pursue the best treatment possible and then choose optimism?

  • Artista964
    Artista964 Member Posts: 376
    edited March 2018
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    unless they is something that may be suspicious there are no annual mri's. If you have symptoms that makes sense to scan then that's when it's done. Mri is pricey so unless there is a good reason, it won't be covered. But if your doc is good with coding, maybe with the right code it may work. My checks on my bilat mx with implants is my docs feeling around for lumps. So unless I have a symptom, no scans.

  • thinkingpositive
    thinkingpositive Member Posts: 564
    edited March 2018
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    I have dense breasts as well as implants. Well now one dense breast and one full implant. Mammography never picked up the IDC that I had which was Grade 3 and a node positive. It was the MRI that found it. Guess that may be the reason for annual MRI. Don't the Mamo reports now say that if you have dense breasts your doctor may want to have MRI done??

  • lala1
    lala1 Member Posts: 974
    edited March 2018
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    I also have one dense breast and one implant. I get an annual mammogram but also get an MRI every 3 years. And since I have a breast exam by my BS, MO and GYN, I spread them out over the year so I get a physical breast exam every 4 months. My BS orders the mammograms and MRI. He says the MRI is to catch anything the mammogram doesn't as well as to check the implant to make sure it's holding up and hasn't sprung a leak. Singing My insurance only pays if I've hit my deductible but my BS makes the hospital give me a steep discount.

  • muska
    muska Member Posts: 224
    edited March 2018
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    If one still has a breast MRI might be useful but I would be surprised if they covered it every year unless there is a specific reason. ThinkingPositive, your signature reads you have implants on both sides so I got confused.

  • meow13
    meow13 Member Posts: 1,363
    edited March 2018
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    I still get the mri every year and it is covered by my BCBS.

  • thinkingpositive
    thinkingpositive Member Posts: 564
    edited March 2018
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    muska... I had a Mastectomy on left side so that's s full implant. The right side they did lift and reduction so I have s very small implant on that side so both look alike.

  • thinkingpositive
    thinkingpositive Member Posts: 564
    edited March 2018
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    So my BS’s PA called me today to let me know she was able to get it approved. Thank you all for your responses. Nice to know there is somewhere to go and talk to those who understand!!

  • Mstein1970
    Mstein1970 Member Posts: 11
    edited April 2018
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    I just got the results of my ANA (antinuclear antibody) blood test, and I'm very concerned. Shortly before I was diagnosed in 2016 with a small, grade 3, estrogen-receptive tumor, my ANA titer was 1:160, which is slightly worrisome. It was 1:320 last year, and now it's 1:640, and that's frightening to me - because of the role inflammation plays in metastasis. Since surgery and radiation, I've been taking Arimidex. I eat very well, try to stick to an anti-inflammatory diet, and take a turkey tail capsule each day. According to several clinical studies I've read, an abnormal ANA is associated with a poor BC prognosis. So far my medical oncologist has refused to discuss this with me. Anyone have advice or a similar experience? I know that many people are unaware of the ANA test. My primary care doctor starting including it in my blood-work decades ago, when I had a non-malignant inflammatory condition.

  • jo6359
    jo6359 Member Posts: 2,009
    edited April 2018
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    mstein1970- I'm still relatively new to this breast cancer learning curve. I was diagnosed the second week of December in 2017. I'm hormone negative and her2 positive. I've already had a BMX with one positive lymph node and clean margins. I just finished Round 4 of tchp. So far minimal side-effects. I am very interested in learning about the different types of testing and how it impacts are treatment and recurrence rates Could you please explain ANA?

  • minustwo
    minustwo Member Posts: 13,078
    edited April 2018
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    I didn't' know either so I googled my favorite medical site for general information. Below is just one sentence. Lots of information out there.

    Your doctor is likely to order an ANA test for a suspected autoimmune disease such as lupus, rheumatoid arthritis or scleroderma.

  • jo6359
    jo6359 Member Posts: 2,009
    edited April 2018
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    minus2-thanks for the explanation. Hope you are feeling well.

  • minustwo
    minustwo Member Posts: 13,078
    edited April 2018
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    jo - looks like you're doing the same regime I did - TCHP. But maybe you had your surgery first since you listed the nodes? Hopefully you're about finished with the chemo.

    Mstein - if you don't mind sharing, what was the reason for the initial ANA testing? Where are you in the BC process? Are your HER2 positive?

  • Roaming_Star
    Roaming_Star Member Posts: 66
    edited April 2018
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    Hey - just thought I would join in on the subject of inflammation. I have been reading a lot of journal articles as well linking inflammation to not only auto-immune disorders but also diseases like cancer, Alzheimer's, depression, schizophrenia, diabetes, heart disease etc. Researches are really just starting to get the bigger picture of the detrimental, degrading quality of inflammation on the immune system. I have been trying to talk with not only my MO but my GP and my psychiatrist about this. However, they wont test me for inflammation so I will probably end up going private for on going testing as also think it is a good indicator of what is going on. Tumours also increase inflammation in the body. The reason why my docs wont test me is because the science is just at the discovery stage. They are starting to do trials with anti-inflammatories with cancer treatment with some success. For my own health I also eat a low inflammatory diet and I also include Bromelain (pineapple enzymes) to decrease inflammation in my body. Low dose naltrezone also helps your body with auto-immune disorders as well.

    Mstein1970 - i would also be concerned as well if your ANA levels keep increasing. You may want to consider full body scanning if you can afford it or get insurance to cover it. Or you may want to include other cancer markers in your blood work to see if you have other elevated levels.

  • solfeo
    solfeo Member Posts: 253
    edited April 2018
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    CRP is another inflammation marker that can influence outcomes. BCO has a good article here. Mine was in the top third (6.6) at diagnosis, which put me in the highest risk of dying from breast cancer group. Talk about scaring the crap out of me! I got it down to <1 within 6 months with diet, lifestyle changes and supplements. Losing weight if necessary will lower it quite a bit, and you can find plenty of other strategies online. I take a supplement called ashwagandha that helps with general inflammation, plus 4g of omega 3s in the form of fish oil daily, and a low dose aspirin 5 days per week. Plus a few others that might have some affect on inflammation.

    High cortisol (stress hormone) levels might also contribute to a less favorable outcome. Mine started at "You have the highest cortisol level I have ever seen!" according to my doctor, but I also got that down to normal fairly quickly. The same measures that bring down inflammation also tend to affect cortisol levels. Plus I do guided meditations to reduce stress. You don't want your cortisol to be too low either, because that indicates a different problem that my doctor said he sees more often than high levels. Ashwagandha can help balance it in either direction. There are other supplements that are good for this, but I can't take them because they can interfere with tamoxifen.

    Here is a good summary of ashwagandha research.

  • jo6359
    jo6359 Member Posts: 2,009
    edited April 2018
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    minustwo- you are correct. I had surgery first before Chemo. So since I had one positive lymph node radiation was recommended after chemo. That's Okay. We do what we have to do to get through this thing. Have a great weekend.

  • lisey
    lisey Member Posts: 300
    edited April 2018
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    Solfeo, good to know!  I am strangely addicted to chewing fish oil capsules (I love the taste and they are like dissolving gum)  I have maybe 4 a day.... maybe my body knows what it needs.  

  • Mstein1970
    Mstein1970 Member Posts: 11
    edited April 2018
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    jo6359, the ANA is a non-specific indicator of inflammation in the body. As Roaming Star says, the medical profession knows still understands very little about its role in cancer, and most doctors still think of it mostly in relation in autoimmune diseases like lupus. Despite my long history of abnormal ANA levels, my medical oncologist refused to order my most recent ANA test for me, saying it was irrelevant. (One of my other doctors ordered it.) But studies clearly show that it is an indicator of inflammation that may be caused by cancer (often before the cancer is diagnosed). And that the inflammation may then create conditions that enable the cancer to spread. Here are links to some studies (I may have copied some links twice)::

    http://news.cornell.edu/stories/2013/01/study-find...

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC44534...!po=47.8022

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3867234/

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC44534...

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC38672...

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC28030...

  • jo6359
    jo6359 Member Posts: 2,009
    edited April 2018
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    Mstein- thanks for all the information about ANA. The next time I see my medical oncologist on May 18th I'm going to discuss it with him. I'm going to read your links also. Thanks.

  • Misty879
    Misty879 Member Posts: 9
    edited May 2018
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    I am supposed to get yearly MRIs done as well as part of my overall treatment plan as set up by my surgeon and MO. I was 36 at diagnosis and have extremely dense breasts so they wanted me doing MRIs every year so they can spot any changes right away. What's funny though is that the first MRI I had showed the tumor and that nothing had spread beyond it, so they were going to go ahead with the lumpectomy but the MAMMOGRAM I had at the surgeons office showed calcifications and other things within the breast which is why they opted for the mastectomy instead. I don't think mammograms show lymph nodes and the chest wall obviously, but the calcifications weren't picked up by the MRI.
  • meow13
    meow13 Member Posts: 1,363
    edited May 2018
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    When I was being evaluated I had mammogram which saw something then ultrasound then biopsy and finally mri before the mastectomy. I got my first real piece of good news from mri and mastectomy pathology. My surgeon said my pathology report was really good considering the 2 tumors. Bad news came with oncodx test results of 34.

  • salamandra
    salamandra Member Posts: 736
    edited December 2018
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    I'm a new early stager and was linked to this thread. I found it really interesting and want to thank everyone who provided on-topic, substantive, and thoughtful information.

    Others have probably seen this study but I don't think it was linked here yet and it seemed on topic for at least a subset of us (node negative, ER+, Her-). Although it only goes out to ten years, I still found it encouraging.

    Luminal-like HER2-negative stage IA breast cancer: a multicenter retrospective study on long-term outcome with propensity score analysis

    It's a 2017 Italian retrospective study (with the limitations that entails). They looked at outcomes for women with early stage who got tamoxifen alone versus tamoxifen plus chemo. Overall, the women who got chemo had higher risk factors (makes sense why their doctors would have prescribed chemo).

    10 year disease-free survival rate/Overall Survival Rate

    • tamoxifen alone (tended to be lower risk): 94.1%/99.4%
    • tamoxifen+chemo (tended to be higher risk women): 87.8%/96.9%
    • Everybody together: 91.5%/98.3%

    They found that the 'best' predictor of higher recurrence was the grade of the tumor.

    They said that the chemo used was mostly older technologies, due to the timing, and this shouldn't on its own be taken as an indicator against using the newer more customized chemo regimes for HR+ women. Still, it might make other women like me feel better about avoiding chemo - just because adding chemo feels like doing more, it's not necessarily actually 'throwing the whole book at it' or anything.

    ----------------------------------

    I also want to mention the new staging guidelines. They were revised to make prognostication more consistent, and they might be helpful to women looking to better understand our own risk profiles. I found that my doctors were not at all good about communicating with me the nitty gritty of this.

    One thing that was a nice surprise, though it doesn't apply to me personally, is that under the new guidelines, HER+ actually reduces staging. I presume that's because of the efficacy of herceptin.

    These are some helpful resources I found, but none of them is a really good 'snapshot' approach so if anyone has that, that would be helpful:


  • april1964
    april1964 Member Posts: 153
    edited December 2018
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    Thank you Salamandra for providing this!!