STEAM ROOM FOR ANGER
Comments
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Mods, this is the second time you've come into a thread where there's disagreement but not nastiness and made a warning like this. Just stop. We're adults dealing with difficult situations and sometimes people post things that really truly don't belong here or we have questions about why they're posting something. And you intervene like a net nanny. We're ADULTS. We can have disagreements. That's the mark of a healthy set of forums.
I left that last thread because I had legitimate questions about the OP. You shot down four of us super hard, and at least one left the boards for good. Is that the goal? To have us all hold hands and sing around a campfire? If that's the case, please say so. While I get a lot of value from the posters' perspectives, I don't get enough to stay for that kind of behavior for mods. And yes, I've modded on highly active, very contenious boards. I do know what I'm talking about.
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Simbobby how terrible for you. So glad you pushed to see your primary doc to get taken care of since that can be life threatening in itself. Glad you are on finally on the mend.
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Prehistoric, let me ask you something. Did you post the suicide prevention hotline number on any other threads you frequent? Like that one about a game. Why not? Someone could be reading and not posting there and be really depressed about not understanding the game. I was trying to have a serious discussion of the medical aid in dying topic and the differences among state laws in the US and also the laws in Canada. I was truly insulted by your posting of the hotline number in the middle of that discussion. There are certain nuances to discussions on this forum which are only appreciated with experience.
Mods, are there any mods who have stage IV BC? Just wondering.
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Simbobby, I'm so sorry. What a miserable experience. I'd be livid at the doctor and I'd make sure she knew.
This is a thread for venting. That means that we may have people posting here, or reading here, who are fed up and frustrated and angry. Some might be at the end of their rope. With that consideration, I don't have any problem with the posting of a suicide prevention hotline telephone number.
Some posts in this thread over the past week or so have included serious, and sometimes humorous, takes on how those who are terminally ill might choose to die with dignity. To my way of thinking, death with dignity is completely different from suicide. I believe that human beings should be allowed to choose to end their lives when confronted with a terminal disease and pain and/or total loss of physical or mental capabilities. Since I see suicide and death with dignity to be at opposite ends of the spectrum, I made no connection between the posting of a suicide prevention hotline telephone and the death with dignity discussion.
Both topics are valid within this thread, I think. Perhaps the problem was only including both topics in the same post, and not providing enough clarity that there was no connection. Personally I thought that was made clear by the line "100% support people's right to choose death w/dignity" but I guess that wasn't clear enough for some. And as I've been reading these posts and thinking about it, while perhaps it would have been better to have a sharper separation between these two topics, it's also occurred to me that if someone is reading this thread who is currently physically healthy but is at the end of her rope, frustrated and angry, perhaps those posts explaining how one can end one's life might plant an idea. Given that, I can see some validity in posting a suicide prevention number while at the same time maintaining a positive and respectful, and sometimes humorous, discussion about how to die with dignity, when the time comes.
Edited for typos only.
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Prehistoric, I apologize for getting your title wrong, my bad.
I apologize also that my way of expressing myself offended you or anyone else.
However, to the general claim that everything everyone offers is done for the good of the community and offered in the spirit of helping, I say no. No. Not everything that is said is in the spirit of goodness. If you come across a fire and you have liquid in your hand and you throw it on the fire and the liquid happens to be gasoline, you can claim the high moral ground all you want but you made a bad situation worse. As Jaycee pointed out, there is equal likelihood that suicidal people are reading each and every thread on this site and it would be absolutely fitting for Prehistoric to post her suicide prevention hotline in every other thread she posts on. Just in case. As far as I can tell it was only posted here, where people were rightly discussing some very weighty and serious topics. And where the mention of a suicide hotline could be perceived as a moral judgement. Not as help, but as a smackdown for having such drastic thoughts.
I am sorry that I took issue with this, but I did. It struck me as .... wow. It struck me as minimizing the real suffering that people bring here. It struck me as a conversation killer. It struck me as the wrong topic at the wrong place at the wrong time. It is so hard to talk to our loved ones about our upcoming death. They can't hear it. They don't want to hear it. When we can't have the truth of our death heard and witnessed, it can alienate us. It makes us feel like we have to take our dirty little dying from this nasty little cancer and shuffle off to a corner and keep it to ourselves where no one has to be bothered by the enormity and finality we face. SO WE TALK HERE.
Mods, I apologize because I know you would like me to shut up on this topic. While Prehistoric may not have intended harm, I feel it happened anyway. Perhaps I need to learn to be a bit more gracious. Fair enough. In that exact same vein Prehistoric might need to learn to read the temperature of the room a bit more clearly. There is a time and place..this wasn't it. I have said my piece, got my thoughts out. I will now shuffle off to practice playing nice in the sandbox. Obviously I need LOTS of practice!
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Beesie, she didn't even leave a space/blank line.
"100% support people's right to choose a death w/dignity. Just in case, posting suicide prevention hotline: 800-273-8255 or text HOME to 741741"
I'm also getting some kind of text box pop up on my screen sometimes when I hover over the number. Annoying.
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Reading further back into the thread, I have come to agree with runor and the others. What people are talking about is NOT suicide, they are talking about having the ability to pass away on their own terms. Some of us will face that sooner as opposed to later. It is better to have a plan in place and they should not have to suffer. A suicide hotline number is inapproriate given the discussion and that is what people are saying.
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IF the hotline number had been inserted into a conversation in the Stage IV only threads, that would be in questionable taste. This particular conversation is open to any member, at any stage, with any mental/emotional outlook. There is nothing in the "Steam room for anger" title that says "everyone here must think in lockstep with certain frequent posters." Especially when some of those posters who are NOT Stage IV specialize in stirring up drama.
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I think our society just avoids talking about death. Sex politics religion, ok but not death. Something that is completely normal. I too am inspired by many brave women on here. I lost a friend to cancer this year and fortunately she was in Canada. There seems also to be confusion about what is normal and what is depression. So many elderly are put on antidepressants for normal feelings. I recognize they have their place.
So I too am a little passionate, I felt when our elderly dog died we were kinder to him than humans. Yet I too have mixed feelings. Appreciate the honest discussion!
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I've been reading this forum for several weeks and it is so helpful especially the talk of dying with dignity. I'm 73, out from cancer 10 years ago, and everything seems ok for now although that could change tomorrow. I love that you all blast off too. Thank you for being here.
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Suicide by definition is choosing to end your life. No one has the right to judge whether or not it is dignified or timely. Depression is as serious an illness as cancer and having had both, I would far rather die from cancer. A suicide help line, with trained staff, would respond completely differently to an individual in end stage cancer as to a teen in crisis. But both are planning suicide. I hope no one ever views a suicide help line as a judgement on their decision. Also, to be very clear, discussing suicide never plants a seed. The more discussions, the fewer tragic suicides. What we all want is for everyone to be aware of all the resources, treatment options and facts, before making a decision. Once that decision is made, unless it is a child or mentally compromised adult, they should be supported in their decision. Judgement needs to be replaced with respect. Any end of life decisions need to be given the compassion, respect and urgency that these decisions demand and deserve
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TB90, with all respect you cannot compare your experience with early stage cancer to how those of us with metastatic cancer are going to die,and say that you would rather die from cancer than from depression. At least if you die from depression, it will be over quickly. Those of us who are metastatic will likely have a long, drawn-out, and painful death (unless our heart stops first from cardiotoxic treatments). When every second of every day is excruciating physical pain that has you screaming out loud but they can't give you more morphine because more will stop your breathing, when you no longer have control of your bladder and bowels, when you can't get out of bed because the cancer has destroyed your bones, when every breath is painful because the cancer has destroyed your lungs, when you can no longer keep food down and your loves ones are considering a feeding tube unless you have an Advance Directive in place making sure they don't, not to mention the depression that goes along with all of it as things just get worse and worse every day... you might have some different feelings about preferring to die from cancer. Add on top of that the pain and anguish it causes loved ones to see you like that every day and not be able to do anything about it.. I already had a small taste of it when I came close to death a while back, and I can tell you that knowing I'm going to go through it again one day scares the hell out of me.
The cancer IS going to kill us, we are not deciding to end our lives, we are deciding how bad to let things get before we ease our pain and the pain of our loved ones. I'm very grateful that I live in a state with a Right To Die law.
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Again to be clear, choosing how you pass away from a terminal illness is NOT suicide as has been said many times. It is choosing not to suffer in agony and die a painful death. Choosing to pass away peacefully is the compassionate end to a horrible disease. NOT SUICIDE. Even early stage cancer patients should recognize that. Depression is not the primary motivator for cancer patients to end, we do not and should not have to suffer when there are peaceful ways to go.
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Choosing to die is suicide. Why is this word so offensive. Do you really believe that those who choose to die due to depression are suffering less than you. How can you compare. Suicide is planning your death. It is not a sin or an offence, even though many feel it should be. Judgement is the issue here. I am so offended that you feel your dx trumps my experience. I would never judge another’s decision based on my personal experience. Glad I am the one answering the phones. I would never, ever, judge based on someone’s personal experience. Or dx. Our bc dx are only a part of our lives. Your experience never trumps mine. And I never judge others based on my experience either.
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Perhaps that is why mental health issues are currently being debated in the states. Because they are not being respected and given the resources needed. Perhaps mass shootings are the result. I am a strong advocate to support all persons and their issues. Not just about mine.
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As with every thread here, we truly value and appreciate everyone’s thoughts, opinions, and passion. We know how much this community means to everyone, and it’s never our intention to quash anyone, or make them feel as though they’re not free to express themselves.
In a thread like this one, there are going to be MANY opinions, discussions, and yes, rants. Some you may agree with, others not so much. But everyone should be welcome to share here, even if you disagree with what is being said. The point and purpose of Prehistoricmom’s post has been clarified and explained, and at this point, we urge everyone to move forward.
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Please clarify what moving forward means. Not discussing this issue that is so important. Suicide causes more deaths than breast cancer. I cannot ignore the messages in this post. But pm me if you want me to bury my head in the sand and ignore this critical issue. It if I in any way inappropriate here, please be public about accusing me.
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TB90, technically you are correct. Choosing to end one's life, under any conditions, is suicide. But there is a world of difference between choosing to end one's life on one's own terms before dying from a terminal disease, versus choosing to die when you have decades of life ahead of you. As I said in an earlier post, to me, they are at opposite ends of the spectrum.
The first person is going to die shortly anyway, and is looking to make the process of death easier and less painful for themselves and their loved ones. This person needs assistance. We want this person to be able to fulfill their desire to die on their own terms.
The second person is not facing death except from suicide. This person needs help from a mental health professional. We hope that this person comes out of their pain and chooses to live.
Both individuals of course need compassion and support and understanding.
We use the same word to describe these two very different situations, but maybe we shouldn't. Maybe if we had different words, more descriptive/explanatory words, we would deal better with both situations.
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Beesie; I agree. But perhaps we should take the stigma out of the word suicide.
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Alice~My dear. I am stage four. I actually find your last sentence quite offensive considering you have no right to decide what people do or do not post either. Read the post or don’t. But don’t resort to insulting people for sharing honest feelings, just like you did.
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Last thing I'll contribute to the subject is the link to an interesting read about the terminology of assisted dying that we are talking about. https://www.deathwithdignity.org/terminology/ Worth a read and clarifies things well.
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This topic is very divisive indeed. Truth is, I don't consider it suicide because the patient is not choosing to die. In fact terminally ill people would rather be able to live. The physician assisted dying is part of death with dignity as it is known more correctly. The patient is choosing not to die a long drawn out death that will happen anyway.
As said above, suicide is different as the person is not imminently dying but chooses to take their life for various reasons, depressions traumas etc. Both are tragic but are not the same thing. There are better names for what it is and we should all have the right to it. I won't speak further on this topic as I have said all I need to but I do feel strongly that we should differentiate the terminology.
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Oh, and by the way, being Stage 4 will give a person a different perspective and focus than early stage cancer since Stage 4 is incurable and ultimately terminal. Our focus is on quality of life and in some cases quality of death without extra suffering. We spend the rest of our lives in treatment that does not end until we ultimately pass away. We deal with side effects of drugs that keep us alive but sometimes do not work and leave some us so completely sick that it becomes important to have the right to pass away without pain and suffering. It is not suicide, we are going to die of this disease anyway. That is why I take umbrage at the use of the word suicide or the assumption that if I want help to pass away easily without pain it is because I am depressed. That really is not correct.
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I see the advantage of having the suicide number posted. Not everyone with cancer really wants to die. I know some stage 4 that are in bad shape that don't. Ultimately it's up to you. Calling the suicide line allows people who want to talk to someone to do so. Not everyone has someone to talk to. Ultimately it's bouncing off your feelings and thoughts about your situation. I didn't get the backlash of this being posted. I've called that line before when I was in a bad way before cancer. I had nobody. And if I need someone to talk to healthy or not, that is an option. OP wasn't trying to say no or imply it's wrong to feel that way, just for peeps who don't know resources are there should you want to use it. Let's chill.
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The definition of suicide is knowingly doing something to yourself to expedite your passing. There's nothing wrong with that imo healthy or not. I can distinguish between those who should seek mental health tx and those who are ill and want to check out. Not everyone is mentally rehabitible and if the mental pain is too much, that should be up to the person instead of being in mental and the physical pain it causes in misery in and out of psych wards. So I for one am not hung up on the term because that is the definition. There are circumstances that people should understand why the person wants to end their life/commit suicide.
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Differentiate the terminology because those “choosing” to die are different. Having worked in this field for 35 years and experienced the loss of those dying due to mental health issues and working with their families and communities, dying from depression is equally painful. No one dies quickly and painlessly from depression. Most die after years of pain, homelessness, poverty, isolation, incarceration, rejection, disease, abuse, and humiliation. Disease and health are not even identified. Many dying of suicide may not even be aware of disease within their bodies. Breast cancer is horrific, but so are so many afflictions. Depression is one of the most common and terminal illnesses in third world countries. But the stigma prevents persons from asking for help and treatment. Suggestion in that depressed individuals have options for treatment is a myth. The stigma here only exemplifies the issue. Depression is a terminal illness due to stigma and serious lack of resources. Lets all advocate for health for all. Not just for our health issues.
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Micmel, I stand by what I said because some people were piling on a new poster who was trying to be helpful, and acting like she had committed a faux pas in trying to crash a private high school club. If my calling out their rudeness is also rudeness, so be it. When I post on a topic like this where emotions run high, I always specify that I do not speak for Stage IV patients because they have their own circumstances that I could not begin to understand. Other early-stage posters seem to feel differently about doing that. BTW, I have another health issue that will make me someday face the same decision that this conversation is addressing, and I was in no way offended by the suicide prevention number being posted. I lost a friend who had a planned passing, and all who knew her understood that it was the disease she endured that was her real cause of death. But not everyone has that conviction to end things on their own terms, or understands the difference between a final plan at X point in time versus trying to get through a temporary setback. Those people might very well benefit from talking anonymously to a trained support person.
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as I said opinions are opinions. I breathe on one lung, can’t feel one Arm, the other has lymphadeama! I know health issues. I just witnessed my father’s passing on May 11 in front of my eyes. I know about death. I’m staring down the barrel. I had no problem with any number posting. It’s when the insulting starts, knowing it’s an already hot topic makes me scratch my head a little and wonder what purpose that could possibly solve
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I’ll start today’s rant for myself! I AM OUT OF COFFEE! omg now that’s a crisis! Love to all
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That really is a crisis.
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