STEAM ROOM FOR ANGER
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TB90, I understand your earlier comment re depression vs cancer.
My oldest friend suffers from awful treatment-resistant depression. She is a loving, intelligent, generous and overall WONDERFUL person, but can't manage to feel wonderful about herself. She suffers intense emotional pain, feelings of despair, worthlessness, hopelessness, etc.
When I was in the midst of getting chemo, she also went through a down period... and when we were catching up on the phone she said "I am just so *ashamed*-- I feel guilty even talking about it with you-- I mean, for God's sake, it's not like I have cancer!"
My reply was, "Honestly, I'd rather have cancer than depression." And she burst into tears on the phone... because she was so grateful that I understood how bad her depression was.
Re end of life, I am not stage 4, but I reserve the right to have a less-ugly exit, at the time of my choosing, if I get there. Or if there's some other non-cancer illness that ruins my QOL. And I am the least suicidal person I know.
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I don't believe that dignified death equals suicide, just as I don't believe that applying euthanasia to a beloved pet is the same as killing it...
Since my diagnosis I thought about "thousand ways to die"... I don't deny it. That is suicide. I won't do it, but I don't believe in stigmatizing suicide. In fact, there are philosophies such as Buddhism, Sufism and others that they practice "conscious death", go into deep meditation and breathe slower and slower until they die ... That is suicide too. They simply feel that they have already fulfilled their mission in life and commit suicide "consciously" They are different points of view.
I may be wrong, but I believe that our souls are the ones who choose when and how we die ... although at our human eyes it seems cruel, unfair, tremendous. Although it seems accidental, although it seems that we were murdered, etc. It's my belief, I just share it, I don't try to impose it on anyone
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Santabarbarian: Thanks for your ability to understand what your friend was going through. We all need a friend like you. But we all have so much more in common than we realize. Whether it is suicide or end of life planning, I believe that death is not the goal. Instead it is ending the pain. Lets all support one another in as many pain free days as we can. This we all have in common.
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TB90,
Well said. Yes, let's all support one another in as many pain free days as we can. Especially wishing pain free days to dear Lita who is such an inspiration.
De
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Yndorian - I like the way you think. Euthanasia translated is "good death". My husband is a veterinarian and this is what he practices in his work, a good, painless, comfortable end. I also believe that suffering of any kind human or animalneeds to be alleviated.
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Yndorian, I totally agree with you about that. Had not thought about euthanasia for our pets either as not killing them. Thank you.
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I don't often post or visit the site as frequently as I did at one time. I've been a member of the boards since 2003 when initially diagnosed the first time (2003, again in 2011). I post under a pseudonym as THIS was my place to be among those who “get it" to rant, to ask questions, to give support and be supported.
At one time it was questioned why people didn't list a diagnosis and their specifics- my answer was because I didn't want to. They don't define me. My profile is private just as my life is. You want to list your specifics- your choice.
Each one of us has had to endure a brush with cancer- our own or that of a loved one. Each one of us had a unique diagnosis, treatment plan and life experience prior to cancer and changed forever due to cancer. I'm not the person I once was, and I'm older, less likely to tolerate certain situations and often try to give people benefit of the doubt because I don't know them and they don't know me.
In that light, I understand how passionate each of us may be about different aspects of life, cancer and treatment. After my first diagnosis I was all let's wear pink and raise money to find a cure! After my second diagnosis I was more- ya know there is not one kind of breast cancer and may never be a cure- we just have to make the best decisions we can based on what we know for ourselves.
I wear pink by choice at times because I like it and I am no one's poster child for anything, especially breast cancer. I hesitate to use the word (or be called a) survivor, and I pause when people call me brave or strong. I don't see myself that way. I did what I had to, not because I wanted to at all.
I'm not ranting today. I'm feeling pretty good actually. Reflecting on recent posts in this thread and knowing how my point of view has changed over the years because of my experiences.
I have no reference point on suicide or a comfortable passing. I know what I was taught in Sunday school. I know mental health issues are complex and my heart aches for anyone who doesn't feel they have a path or help. I just don't know how I would respond, as I haven't had to consider the issue for myself- yet.
A wise man once said “opinions are like a$$holes-everybody's got one." So to clarify- I am NOT calling anyone an a$hole. Cancer is just shitty- we all deal with it in our own way. Your own opinions are valid- just don't force yours on me thinking it's got to be the best one. I've got my own shit to deal with and you have yours- which are entirely different.
To each his/her own.
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I do have to say I feel bad for piling on prehistoric mom and the others who posted an opposite opinion about terminology of end of life. I would never want people to feel they could not post their opinions freely. I may not agree but I don't need to bully others which is what I feel I did. I know my own values, beliefs and I don't need to keep saying the same thing over and over.
Opinions are just that, opinions and are subjective. I need to rise above feeling the need to prove I am right about something. I have always done that throughout my life. Now that I am in the twilight of my life here, I need to stop doing things like that.
I am only speaking for myself, NOT ANYONE ELSE. My opinions expressed in this post are my own, not reflective of what others may have said. I would not want prehistoricmom to feel badly about getting support at this site or posting her opinions. Again, I am sorry to the others I may have offended as well with vigorously defending something I don't need to defend.
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I take my hat off to you mara51506, not many can calmly rethink something and regret posting.
I feel for 'newbie' prehistoricmom who I feel had no idea of the hornets nest she was igniting with her post...
I have hovered a long time over the submit button here and want to apologise in advance to anyone who doesn't like or disagrees with my posting this.......
GP
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Disagreement isn't piling on though.
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It it wasn't simply disagreement..
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I do feel it is wrong to say that someone who commits suicide has a good life before them and shouldn't have done it. There is no way we can get inside their minds and know the agony and hell those with mental health suffer nor those who are so consumed by life's pressures are feeling that they can no longer cope. They may or may not have seeked counseling, and some may have for years, but still see suicide as their only choice. We need more empathy towards those who have committed suicide. I do believe in death with dignity even though I am Catholic. Where I live only two doctors signed up to participate and only one hospital allows their doctors to do it and none of their doctors signed up. I think it odd as a society we have no problem with euthanasia for our pets but cannot fathom it for ourselves when the end is very near.
I think the best thing we can do about the suicide/death with dignity discussion is to - Agree to Disagree
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Artista928 I see it otherwise. I see a real tendency with us women to get really uncomfortable when there's disagreement and then words like bullying and piling on get thrown around like bad confetti. I wish we'd stop that and be OK that we have different perspectives and reasons why we have those positions.
One of the best ever courses I took had us consider why a reasonable rational human being would have that opinion (whatever it was that was in the middle of the disagreement). That reframing helps ensure assuming positive intentions and leads to open discussion about the differences. I use that all the time at work and in my personal life, it's been transformative for me. So when I'm asking questions about a position you or someone else holds, that's what I'm doing--asking to learn more about where you're coming from.
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I thought this presented an awesome opportunity to discuss suicide and end of life planning. I take every opportunity I can to destigmatize mental health issues. And I completely support choosing how to live and die. There are as many opinions as there are people and situations, so the only best practice is respect. And the ability to put yourself in the other persons shoes. When our own fears deprive others of choice and dignity, then we have crossed the line. We have the right to our opinions and the responsibility to not take away the rights of others. Disagreeing is an opportunity to learn and gain insight from others. I have something to offer, not due to my stage of bc, but due to my experiences helping parents take their young children down from a hanging. I do identify with these young victims and their families and cannot view suicide as anything less than a heart wrenching tragedy. Not as a choice or an option. I am honoured to do the work I do. And will continue to advocate for the rights of all. I just felt suicide was being depicted inaccurately
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That is why I was speaking for only myself, not recriminating other people. The piling on was my own, not referring to others. She is a new member and I felt my behaviour was less than gracious. That is all I meant above.
Again, not accusing or saying other people are wrong to have a differing opinion than others. I feel like I could have shared my opinion and been kinder about it is all.
Different opinions are needed because we cannot learn other perspectives without them, but I should have been kinder than I feel I was. Not saying everyone else was wrong, only referring to me. If I could have PM'ed her I would have done so. I would not have posted here otherwise.
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bottom line is text can be taken different ways. So when disagreeing with someone we should remember even if someone isn't a "newbie" that to post making it clear it's your opinion only, especially on hot topics. Fact is OP felt bad and that is wrong.
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Edj, I do agree we should ask questions to gain a better perspective of someone else and why they feel the way the way they do. I just felt I personally made someone feel bad, and I felt badly. I cannot apologize personally to her so I posted here.
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Two issues are muddied here. One is of semantics, the definition we assign words. Is ending your life when a horrible death is inevitable, suicide? Or is it death with dignity? Either way that is not at all what concerned me in the least. That is a long and difficult conversation that no one, including government bodies and lawmakers have been able to clearly hash out.
The problem I had was that in the middle of a conversation about perhaps having to plan your own death to avoid a horrible and gruesome end, struggling with some of the most intense feelings humans can have, facing their own end, was not the best place to put suicide help line.
Was it helpful to post a suicide hotline in that moment on that thread? The poster says that was the intent, to be helpful. Whatever her motives were or were not, she felt that it was something she should do. So she did.
I felt it was a discussion stopping and derailing thing to do at that particular moment in time on that particular thread. I have no objection to the content, but to the timing and placement. I felt saying so was something I had to do. So I did.
It has ZERO to do with the newness or otherwise of the poster. It is regrettable that she felt bad over how everything went down. Also regrettable are the people who felt choked out by the introduction of what could be perceived as judgement about their thoughts. LOTS of toes were stepped on yesterday. There is no sole victim. Several black eyes and bloody noses were acquired in the scuffle. We are all big girls. We shall carry on.
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As a bystander reading this discussion regarding end of life options...this thread is for anger and rants and whatever else we don’t want to spew on our families...this is not a Stage IV Only thread. Adding the suicide hotline number was a benign event. It was meant to be helpful because there are BC sisters reading this discussion group at various stages in their treatment. Many of us with BC experience depression and those that are not receiving treatment for it could be at the end of their rope. The suicide hotline would have been inappropriate if it was posted in the Stage IV Only discussion groups, where by the way this would have had a better outcome.
There is no one right or wrong here. I do believe there was some “group think” going on. I didn’t agree with any of you because I am a follower of Christ and God determines when I go to my heavenly home, not me, even if it means I endure suffering.
BC sisters...life is too short to get our panties in a wad over differing ideas and opinions. Take a deep breath and extend grace to one another. Let go of hurt feelings, let go of pride. In the big picture of living with a cancer diagnosis...this nitpicking and pointing fingers..it’s wasted time and energy.
We are all going to die...we don’t get out of this earthly life without physical death and when and how that occurs for each of us is unknown.
I care deeply for all of you. Please don’t create a chasm in this group.
(((Hugs)))
Bella 2013
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This will all blow over and we will not allow a chasm to build in this thread for ALL stages. We need this for the stress of life and things we don't want to spew on our families (that is the exact wording I use when describing my rants to my MO) for sure. We need this place, ALL of us.
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I agree bella. The suicide number may help someone where cancer isn't the concern right now.
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If that is the case, why isn't it posted all over the place in random threads? Why was it included right there? When I was trying to get the facts straight about medical aid in dying?
And here is a rant: I can't stand it when people post on a discussion where it is obvious they haven't read the previous posts or maybe haven't understood them. I'm not mentioning any names, but there are a lot of empty words in this discussion. This was NOT about the meaning of the word suicide or whether anyone agrees with the concept of death with dignity.
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why ask why. Come on, chill. I'm sure she's noted to never do that again, sadly. For those of you who no 0 about mental illness like clinical depression like I suffer from, not the OP, I am angry at the attacks! You know nothing about people on here, what they may be suffering from. Stupid to assume you do and question why something was posted here and not there. Knock it off!
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I am also dealing with depressive symptoms caused by grief over losing my mother in January. Her last wishes for her passing were followed and she was kept comfortable. I plan to go out the same way I hope when hospice time comes.
I do not think any malice was meant by posting the suicide number. That number could help others who are not dealing with cancer but could possibly be caregivers who are under an extreme stress.
Yes, the topic was exploring assisted dying and what is available to us.
Also, there can be more than one conversation at the same time on the same thread which is why it always helps to use names to who you are responding to.
Think I will stop posting here until this all blows over.
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I am currently reading a book called, “A Beginner’s Guide to the End.” Some of you may be interested in looking at it for information. It covers everything from clearing out your stuff to grieving and everything in between. Lots of practical advice about how to do everything that needs to be done, wills, burial, hospice, etc. Explains the terminology and gives examples. Over and over they stress talking things out with those who matter and give different points of view on many of the situations they write about. One of the authors is a hospice and palliative medicine doctor who himself had a near death experience. It’s a recent book and I’m not finished yet but I’m a practical person and it gives me things to think about that I haven’t even begun to think of.
My current rant is my soon-to-be-ex daughter-in-law is moving 45 minutes away so I will no longer see my granddaughters every weekday after school. They have lived ere or nearby since the youngest was 6 months and she just turned 7! If I didn’t have cancer I’d be fighting for them to come live with me! She is such a flake and I worry about their future!
Janet, I want to be your neighbor.
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THIS IS TERRIBLE! You know what is so terrible? That we are all so cowed and controlled, so scared of stepping on a toe, so scared of speaking our truth, that we are all dancing around the subject. Saying it but not saying it. Hinting lest we look bad, feel bad or worse be edited and banned for being bad.
Artista, (or anyone else) if you want to NAME me and point a finger at me, please, do it. If this place is not a place we can be REAL and BARE then it has NO VALUE. If we must all speak in hushed tones and politically correct suggestions, this site has NO VALUE. So if you want to say, "Runor is a big fat pain in the ass", then say it. Scream it! Print it in BOLD LETTERS. Make a paper doll of me and light it on fire. Crumple it and stomp it then post how good it made you feel, how it helped you LET OF STEAM. Because at the end of the day repression, being polite when you want to tell someone to drop dead, smiling when you want to spit, MAKES US INSANE! So Artista, HERE, of all the places, be your bad self and SAY IT! Own it! Proclaim it. And you will feel better. But quit beating around the bush.
I felt free to call out Prehistoric on what I saw as extremely bad form. So I did. Anyone who wants to call me out (yes, Mods, I know you can and did) claim back your voice and your Steam Room and do it. The Steam Room is for steaming - not smoothing the water. No boil, no steam. Get hot!
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yes runor, I'm appalled. I know you were asked to edit a post in mel's thread as was I, mods said so. Knock it off. Respect that not everyone is as perfect so to speak and leave the OP alone. Time to change the subject!
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Wanderingneedle, so sorry to hear about the granddaughter moving away. That would be very hard to deal with indeed.
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Artista~really! You also were asked to remove a comment from my thread as well. In full disclosure of course. Let’s be fully honest here now. No one side bear poking please. Don’t bring me into your issues. You’ve insulted the stage four women enough in my mind, so I’d like my name not to appear in anymore of your posts please. Or do I need to really even repeat what you had to remove ?
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