A place to talk death and dying issues
Comments
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I deeply regret upsetting anyone. This was not my intention and I apologise for causing offense. Having worked in the death-care industry for years, I realize that I am sometimes too... blunt... where this issue is concerned and I forget that it can upset people.
I'm sorry.
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Hey Selena
Don't worry. The beginning of the topic spells it out pretty clearly I'd say! I think we can take it
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Few of us like upsetting people but you sure didn't upset me or most others. Your info was relevant and helpful, and thanks for posting it. My 12 yo foster child's grandma ( her primary parent before placement out of the home) died last year of lung cancer. She was in hospice the last few weeks and had known for over a year that it would be fatal. Still, she refused to talk about her wants and plans for her funeral/ burial with her husband other than buying the cemetery plot. They didnt even discuss things like who to notify when it was time for goodbyes or how often to let their granddaughter (my fo child) to visit in the final months.She believed and told me her husband would never restrict visits when in fact he did, even tho grandma and fo child were both desperate to see each other as much as possible and I was willing to bring her. After grandma died, her husband refused to hold a funeral or burial service even tho at least 2 of his 3 kids and other relatives wanted it, and stated they knew their mom had expected to have one. Without advance planning or having a clear discussion, it didn't occur. This was a huge loss for the family, especially my 12 yo, with no formal way to say goodbye. I got a great suggestion from a friend and, with grandpa's permission ( tho he refused to come) about 3 weeks after the death, held our own tiny graveside service. This was so meaningful for 12yo and her uncle who came and had also needed a way to say goodbye. All that said, talking with our relatives and planning ahead is so much better than ignoring reality and burying our heads in the sand.
So thanks again for the info and ideas, Selena and others! I hope to be years and years from my own end since I'm new to this party and bone only with mets. Even so, I want to take care of the end prep issues well in advance.0 -
Ma,
What does it mean? I truly don't know and don't understand why Selena was criticized.
Caryn0 -
To all,
I am sorry for my post. Selena Wolf 's post was on topic and had an abundent amount of information. I have no excuses that matter. I was out of line and I apologise
Silentbell
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Ty silent. Moving on.... Apple I'd live to see a pic of your shelf. I'm certain that a piano made of a durable substance would be "allowed". You bet Liberace or Elton would have it if desired.
Good discussion. We are Unitarian and many members ask the minister not to refer to god, which she only does in hypothetical ways anyway. I've asked her to avoid her usual "it was time for her to go, her world had gotten so small...." type of statement. I asked her to say I was.ready because I was fulfilled. That's what.I'm.doing with all this time, getting ready!
Anyway, I love this thread which is respectful to all our individual dreams and fears.0 -
Silentbell, thanks for the apology. That's mighty big of you.
Selenawolf, As stated before, you are welcome and it seems as most liked the detailed info. Reading what this thread is for, it is appropriate.
Exbrngrl, somebodies feelings were hurt and now things are fine.
Apple, It seems as if you can get a small plain urn and have a piano decorated around it.
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(((hugs))) to Silentbell. Is it possible that you are "afraid" to have this discussion with your wife? My DH is the "don't talk about that" kind of guy. But I have gently finally got him to agree to go to the funeral home this week and get it all outlined. I told him that once this is done, I can stop worrying and move on with living. I guess this is kind of a "lemon sour drop" for him, but I think it will give us both a little peace.
Apple, want to see a picture of the "shelf" also. Is it temporary? I am leaning to a urn nitch, will find out pricing this week. I do know that I absolutely do not want the thousands of dollars funeral thing. I would rather wipe out all our savings before then to keep my DH from doing that.0 -
Selena, you need not apologize. This post is for us to discuss death and dying and making plans in relation to that is something overwhelming at the best of times, so thank you for your advice. SilentBell, I understand that you may be upset and angry that your wife is ill but those of us that are stage IV and think about death often need a safe place to discuss this. I can't talk to my family as I'm 40 and they don't want to hear it. They suggest I've lost hope or given up my fight - I haven't! I just know that I have stage IV metastatic cancer and that unless I become a miracle, I won't be here for as long as we'd hoped and I'd like to talk about my fears, as well as try to plan in order to make things less horrid for my friends and family. SB, please respect those of us who need the information provided by Selena and who also need to discuss our fears, etc. about death. Unfortunately, it is reality. We DON'T WANT to die or have cancer, but that's not something we can control.
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Thanks to whoever bumped this. I was at a conference once and the workshop was called dealing with the dying process and preparations, or something like that. I thought it would be like this, instead it was a complete discussion on exactly what a caregiver should expect at each step as the person is actively dying. I did not want to listen to how my organs will shut down and what things to watch for, this is the info I was looking for!
I think this is a scary topic that no one wants to address even in the cancer industry. Maybe if it is brushed under the rug enough we won't die from our diseases???? I wish things like this would be discussed more, helps give others ideas on things to leave behind as well as burial planning.
I have not even done my advance directives yet. I'm just afraid it will jinx me. My husband passed in 1999 and it is just me and my 4 children for the most part. I am estranged from my family, they look at me as the black sheep (long story but they just don't live in a real world). Anyway, I try to bring up my burial to the kids and they hate discussing it but I was really considering cremation to make things cheaper but they did want me somewhere so they could go there for their own time. I didn't know you could just bury the ashes and put a marker on the grave. That is an awesome idea and I really am going to consider that. My oldest son said he refuses to carry me around with him all his life because he will constantly be looking over his shoulder wondering what I am thinking about what he is doing! LOL I got a kick out of that!
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LuAnn, my family doesn't want to discuss this either but I have made it clear since before I was ever sick that I must be cremated. I don't want to be buried. I mentioned it recently but, of course, was emotional at the time and crying, so it didn't help. I think I'll do a directives form. I also hope to return to the office at the beginning of May and once I have more money coming in, I will be looking into pre-planning and pre-paying in order to do what I can to save my parents the pain of dealing with this when the time comes. I like to hope I'll live for another 30 or 40 years, but we have to be realistic. I have stage IV metastatic cancer and I will be lucky to have any time I can. Unlike those who die suddenly in an accident, we have the benefit of being able to make decisions now and make a difficult time far easier for our families, or at least deal with details so that they can deal with their loss.
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I always wondered why funerals are never on Saturday or Sunday it makes it hard to go to a funeral during the week when I have to work, but it has to do with cost. Well now I know, and I wish I would've asked my sister how she would've wanted her ashes handled, but I never asked her. I might wait until I die and have them mixed and spread somewhere with her ashes. I kind of like the idea of a smaller grave for ashes. Thank you Selena for helpful common sense information.
Amy Lynn0 -
Jewish funerals are never on Saturday, but can be on Sunday if the person died before the begginging of the Sabbath (sunset Friday night). We don't embalm so funerals are held as soon as possible.
Caryn0 -
Both of my parents wanted their services on Saturday so they could have the choir (mostly made up of people who worked during the week) sing specific music they had chosen. We did have to pay extra for the cemetary workers, but it did not matter because this was what they both wanted. We had a private graveside service for them first (backwards, I know, but they were private people) and then a memorial at the church afterward, with a reception after the service. They lived in California and my Dad passed first from stage IV lung CA. He wanted to be buried. When we went to make the arrangements for him they asked my Mom what arrangements she wanted. She wanted cremation but wanted to be buried with my Dad. In California if you re-open a grave all arrangements must be made when the first person is buried. This was a blessing in disguise, as this forced my Mom to make her own arrangements right then. It was much easier when she passed 4 years later because everything was already done. She was cremated, we picked out a beautiful small box, and she was put in on top of my Dad. She thought this was funny because she got to be "on top" and in charge. It always makes me smile when I think about that. My Mom also picked out the readings and hymns for my Dad, so I used the same ones for her because I figured she liked them. The only difference was the organist and choir sang "Waltzing Matilda" for the recessional for my Dad because he was an Australian ex-pat, and we had bagpipers for my Mom because she was Scottish, born in England and raised in Canada. I also customized the flowers with eucalyptus for my Dad, and maple leaves for my Mom. My brother was diagnosed with stage IV bile duct CA two years later, passed 60 days after diagnosis, and was cremated. His service was non-denominational at the chapel at the cemetary, they had a slide-show and his surfboards and pictures of him with his family. He is in the same cemetary but is up high in a columbarium wall, in an urn. There is room there for my SIL later. She took a small amount of his ashes to Hawaii, asked some local surfers to take her out with them, and scattered the ashes out in the ocean.
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Selenawolf, Thank you for the info. It was very helpful. Dawn
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Since I retired in June I've done a lot of thinking on this topic. DH anad I did advanced directives several years ago. Watching how much $ is spent on funerals made me realize that I would rather our savings be spent in other ways. There is a company here in MD that will pick up your body, use it for medical purposes, cremate it when they are finished, and return the ashes to your family. That's my plan. I've already let my family know as I don't want anyone thinking ill of my DH when he follows through with my request. I already have the paperwork but haven't completed it yet. Whenever they get the ashes back I've asked that 1/2 be spread in our family cemetary in Kentucky and the other 1/2 in the Atlantic Ocean! There will be a memorial service at my church (and yes, I've chosen my favorite songs and scripture) but no body so no funeral home involved, so no cost other than a gift to our minister. Hopefully my family and friends will gather somewhere to party afterwards .... The tears have all been shed .... spend the money on food & drinks, not boxes and hearses!! That's just me .... always ready for a party.
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K-Lo... Thank you for bumping this! And thank you 3jays for re-bumping it!!
Ma,
This was and is such an important, liberating post... My plans were made in haste when I was terrified and thought it was curtains for me. Now that I'm doing well, my friends and family don't want to talk about these issues anymore. And even I have developed a detachment from the whole thing... sometimes it seems too surreal to contemplate. But the more I read and re-read these posts, the stronger and more comfortable I get. It gives us back some control, talking about our wishes and plans for this transition. Thank you again for starting the dialogue...
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Bon - I think Selena is Canadian - so the military piece may be different. On that note though, I just attended a funeral for a old friend who was a military spouse like myself, and veteran in her own right, a former USAF nurse, and fellow BC sister. I was surprised at the wait to be buried at Arlington National Cemetary. She passed the first week of March, but cannot be interred at Arlington until June 2nd. I doubt a wait this long is the case at all national cemetaries, but there are delays that are unlike commercial cemetaries, especially if one wants full military honors. They will not dig when the ground is frozen, WWII/Korea/Vietnam vets are aging and passing in larger numbers, and also the casualties from Iraq and Afganistan are causing a backlog. I feel badly for her family to have this long of a delay, it has to be hard on them.
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Steelrose, thank you for the compliment.
I feel strongly that getting these things done helps us feel better. I don't want what little money I have wasted. I chose one day of viewing, cremation and burial so my daughter has a place to visit. A place to visit is very important to my daughter.
As far as some of the forms, My palliative care doctor and I filled out the Pennsylvania Options for Advance Directives together. She said that is what is the legal form for Pennsylvania. It is hanging on my refrigerator. She also took a lot of notes that can be seen by anyone that can access the computer, even at a different location.
I guess what I am saying is to ask your doctor or nurse what kind of paper work they use in their area. Previously I had a typed paper that was witnessed and notarized and that was not good enough because a doctor was not involved.
I did change one thing while talking with my doctor in regards to antibiotics. She gave me the scenario of having a bladder infection and her not being allowed to give me antibiotics, yes I want that fixed.
When doing these forms, keep in mind that they only take effect if we cannot speak for our selves.
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perhaps we need to be just a little less sensitive.
I am somewhat jaded i guess. I play the organ at funerals for a living. It is unusual, sometimes very pathetic and mundane, sometimes awesome, sometimes glorious and sometimes horrificly sad. (i do not charge for military and our town comes out it full force);
just for a bit of levity i will share this very short funeral story i wrote after a particularly odd one.
A funeral in Kansas
Here in Kansas, a brother of a friend of mine, a fireman with a gambling and drinking problem, committed suicide in jail after being picked up for driving under the influence.
He lived in on the northwestern side of the metro where the houses are pink, grey and crumbled, surrounded by wild dogs, and sometimes have Chief's logos painted full size on the side of the house that has NO windows. Tattoo and dancing parlors abut homemade churches of questionable denomination and the roads have no curbs or drainage conduits.
William was a bagpiper. After the funeral, which was well attended by sturdy legged firemen whose pants were all too tight, who sported handlebar mustaches and shaved heads and probably had Harley-Davidson wannabees in their detached sheds,Twenty five firefighters gathered in the vestibule with 8 fully dressed bagpipers. A fireman said "We will sound the final alarm for our brother William" They had brought at least 8 big brass bells (the kind that used to ring in firehouses to call the firefighters and dangle above the front of the trucks). The 8 bells started clanging in the reverberating church of stucco and tile, the bagpipers started playing, and the huge old church bell started peeling. For at least 3 minutes this unbelievably loud cacophony sounded. The congregation was clusted at the back of the church by the firemen and bagpipers. After about a minute of this wonderful noise, everyone broke into the most unfettered sobbing I have ever witnessed. Not a person was spared from the sobs of utter sorrow.
When the clamor died, one of the firefighters, I guess to lighten the mood, said "Dang it - Bill owed me ten bucks". The very elderly mother of William opened her purse and gave the firefighter a ten dollar bill which he stuck in his pocket to the dismay of all the other firefighters.
Life is very short.0 -
Here in Canada, we do have a Department of Veterans', as well as "Last Post". If someone has served in the military and was discharged honourably, then - once the military papers are forwarded to Last Post - the agency arranges- and pays for everything concerning the funeral and burial in a veterans section of the cemetery. They will even pay for- and erect a Veteran's headstone. The only problem is... only veterans can access this service/cemetery section. If you are the wife/husband of a veteran and you did not serve in the military, then you cannot be buried with them if they chose to go this route. At least in our cemetery. Other's may have different rules...
Also, here, there are Social Services benefts that can be accessed for funeral services/burials if you qualify; the major qualification is income level. If you do qualify, then Social Services will pay for everything; funeral service, grave, burial, headstone/foot marker.
There's, also, a death benefit that comes from the government, but it's not nearly enough to even begin to cover funeral/burial costs and people are working to pass legislation to make it bigger.0 -
apple - wow! What a story, you are a talented writer!
selena - the Canadian government is more generous with the benefits. In the U.S. everyone who has paid into social security gets a death benefit but it is only a couple of hundred dollars. If an active duty military member dies the costs for preparation of the body and burial in a national cemetary are picked up, but if it is a veteran only the cemetary/military honors part is gratis. Use of chapel facilities on a military base are not charged. A spouse or family member can be buried in a national cemetary, in the same gravesite, even if they predecease the military member, but their information is noted on the back of the marker, and it will state "his/her spouse", or "his/her child".
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I've had some really unexpected thoughts today. First, while wondering about all the new physical symptoms I've been having lately (shortness of breath, night sweats, sleepiness, painful mets) it occurred to me that a part of me would rather just get this over with and die sooner rather than later since things will only get worse. I kind of surprised myself with this thought because my greatest wish is to be here to help my children grow up. So, I guess it's the "selfish" part of me just being honest. Then, later, my husband comes home and starts telling me about how much he hates his job (which he rarely voices to me). So, we talk about some different scenarios, but there's really nothing that can be done at this time. Then, I realize that if I were to die soon, my life insurance would allow him to leave his job and start over. It feels like a gift I can give my family. Is it bazaar to think that? Yes, I realize that my kids would rather have their mommy, but they're going to lose me anyway so why drag out the process? Especially, since the longer I live, the larger the debt I will leave them.
Please tell me I'm not the only person to have these thoughts. And, I'm not depressed, I just feel as if I'm coming to terms with the inevitable instead of living in denial.
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just wanted to thank everyone for making me welcome here.. i wanted to ask .. what are the five Questions?? i've missed t, i gues.. thought i had everything down...
no viewing for me, just a memorial service at a clubhouse my DH and i go to, like the vets club..
no expenses, either, that way.. out to the winds, for me.. or the ocean, where my dad went...
I too, have those bizarre thoughts , bc im the cost in our family.. have brought us to the brink of destruction, and it still continues.. over /above ins!!!
i have a few days of my family would be better off, and its not going to be easy the way im suppossed to go...
than, my GS meets me at the door to tell me how much he's missed me, or, my DH Mur, will sheild his eyes, when he knows I'm down, and i decide it can be better, at least for now..
so, i think we all have those days. i thnk (hope) my body will know when its time to think seriously about it...3jays
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Cynthia,
You are not the only one to have thoughts like that. My 18 year old daughter is putting her life on hold until I die. She told me yesterday that next semester she will only take 1 or 2 courses so that she can spend more time with me. If I die now, she would be full time next semester and the money would be there for her college and to pay off her car. It's hard on our familys, so why not go now? That's not being shelffish at all.
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skream i am glad to hear y'all did something so that little girl had some closure.
My dad just past last month and he was lucky enough to have been in the hospital for a few weeks so he pondered about his life and his final wishes. we stuck to them. Although at first they thought he had another six months, but it only turned into another 2 weeks.....
FOR THE SAKE OF OUR FAMILIES THIS STUFF NEEDS TO BE PLANNED WETHER WE ARE DYING TONIGHT OR DYING IN 10 YEARS. WE ALL DIE SO ITS SMART TO PLAN THIS OUT!!!!!!!
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Just came back from the pre-planning appointment. The total cost for everything is less than $2500! Well, sort of. The funeral home and the cemetery does allow a "home made" coffin which is going to save a ton of money! We went through everything including cost of certified death certificates to help DH get all the legalities taken care of. I want to use the local city cemetery, which surprisingly is only $500 for the gravesite, $100 for opening and closing of it, and $200 to place the marker. And the cost includes picking me up, and then putting me away. Awesome, lot less than I thought it was going to be.
Would highly advise doing this. It has definitely put both my mind and my DH's feelings at ease.0 -
To lighten the mood when talking with my sister and cousins, I threatened them with hauntings if they didn't do what I told them. The hardest thing for them is I am one of the babies of the 1st cousins, and at the same time I am planning mine so was my 15 year old 2nd Cousin who had ALS. She wrote some parting words, picked the music when she wanted it played and what she wanted to wear the Twillight Dress her grandma got for what she didn't know at the time she would wear to her Suprise Sweet 16 Twillight Party, that myself and her Aunt had been deviously planning for months. Best $1500 I ever spent, she made it to her goal her 16th and going to high school even though it was only for 2 weeks before having to leave.
Me on the other hand no funeral and no funeral home, cremation, and a big Keg party in the field that we had many adventures in as children. I plan on having a funny review commentary of our childhood with pics and music. I told them they then had to go on vacation to Hawaii and spread my ashes in the Pacific Ocean. I am still working on the details but me sister has the jest, and actually come up with one thing I didn't think of she is going to get a four foot statue of my college mascot which also happens to where I work and place it in front of my mom's grave in our yard which happens to be in front of the family cementary which is on the land we own.
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On the subject of planning ahead for our funerals, has anyone heard of Memorial Societies? There is one near me and it's only $25 to join. They contract with a local funeral home so you save a lot of money and you plan your service in advance. Here is a link to info about the Funeral Consumers Alliance and their affiliates. It sounds like a good idea to me so I'm going to check it out.0
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There is a great pamphlet (FIVE WISHES) dealing with medical directives and what your wishes are with respect to end of life isues. It's very specific and just filling it out helps give some clarity. (To order you can call 1-888-594-7437). I got mine for free from a friend, but there may be a small charge. Five Wishes is a trademark of Aging with Dignity (www.agingwithdignity.org)
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