A place to talk death and dying issues
Comments
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Bonnie,
"... Love me or hate me or just plain ignore me, we all have a place to be..." Yes we do! What a lovely post and I'm happy you're back!
xo
Rose.0 -
Bonnie, Thank you for writing the whole history. There are some people that get off on making other people miserable. Why? I personally think they are pathologic. What other term can adequately describe the meaness.
But your feelings about me in asking you to come back, you have mentioned them several times. I knew there was more to the story b/c your small and large thanks, told me that. So, I am glad it all came together. AND that everyone is accepting of each others thoughts. If someone isn't, just refer them to the header and quote. MA kept it simple "IF YOU CAN'T HANDLE IT GO TO A DIFFERENT POST" clear, consise, delivers the intended message.
Bonnie, you are doing a great job and have so much to offer, don't let any bugger get you down. But remember words can get us into trouble or keep us out of trouble. So when what you really want to say "is take a flying leap you twit". Use Ma's statement. LOL
If I'm not back before thurs. Everyone have a beautiful Thanksgiving. Another year of holding close to those that we care about L&H&P's Namaste sheila
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ruthrub- I transferred the prayer to the prayer archives, it will be easy to find in the future just put it in your favs, I brought the link hear, so it's easy to travel too. It's at the bottom of the page below the novena
http://community.breastcancer.org/forum/38/topic/760274?page=5#post_3303594
L&H&P's sheila
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Thank Sheila, I think it is beautiful and meaningful enough to share around (I read it at my dad's prayer service also).
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There is a book by Elizabeth Kubler Ross, one of several she wrote on the subject, "On death and dying" Which would probably be beneficial for patients and family / loved ones.
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In the mid 90s, my parents passed away within 9 months of each other. It was devastating to me, even tho I was almost 40 at the time. I remember reading a book or two by Elizabeth Kuble Ross that explained those five stages of grief. Her books were okay, but I read another book called "Life After Loss" that helped me the most. Several points it made:
Give yourself time to grieve...three years to go through much of the emotional ups and downs. Of course, you continue with your life, but you allow for the grief.
Also, everyone goes through the stages of grief their own way and in their own time.
The better relationship you have with a loved one who passes, the more effective your grieving will be. (I think that's because you don't have as many regrets).
Grief is an expression of love you have for the one who has passed. I take that to mean that you are honoring them with your grief.
Another thing I knew, without reading the book, was that my relationship with my parents would continue. Sounds odd, but it's true. Now here's the funny part: years later, I read the book "Tuesdays With Morey" and the author said basically the same thing. And I thought to myself, damn, I shoulda wrote a book about that before him and "I" could have had a best seller!
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Hello everyone, Sunday nite after the long turkey weekend. Great time, Great visits.
Kiethw EKR concepts were very significant when she first published, she definitely set the stage for all the exploration of the concepts after. Did you know that from her research on the stages of grief, she became interested in Near death experiences. When she published her first article or book on the subject it was torn apart by many. But she also set the stage for research in this area too.
Divine thanks for the thoughts. Particularly, on the length of grieving. I wondered if mine was unusual, therefore, abnormal. Glad to find out it's not. It's hard enough going through these things without thinking your abnormal along with it, if that makes sense?
There was a movie about "Tuesdays with Morey". Whomever were the leads, I know it was critically very well received, but never had a chance to see it. Reading has been difficult since the surgery year--Oh well----Will see if I can get the movie:)
Bon
, Ruth-your welcome L&H&P's to all sheila
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Bon, I think a lot people are confused about the time it takes to grieve. I remember a friend who suffered the loss of a loved one. Two weeks later, her cruel husband, tired of her sadness, said "Aren't you over that yet?" There are many people like that who just don't get it. I know when I read the book, it allowed me to feel like I didn't have to rush to the next phase of my life. That I would gradually grow into it, but that I needed a reasonable amount of time to process my loss and give myself time to heal. I was easier on myself.
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In this conversation about the grieving process i am reminded of these words from our own Zoh. I copied this from one of her posts to another member. I read it from time to time and have passed the message along a couple of times, always giving Zoh the credit. She had a way with words!!
From Zoh:
There is no way for you to escape the pain you feel now. Much as you might want it to at times, it wont kill you. You will laugh again with great joy, but no time soon. You will eat and sleep like a normal person again, but probably not now. In all of your desperate agony - know that you are safe. You HAD to be in her life at the end time. You can see that - Yes?
For now - breathe in and breathe out. Eat sometimes - shower sometimes - stay where you feel most comforted. Don't push your recovery. How we live through death and grief is a Mystery. You don't have to understand. You don't have to be good at it. You were there for her. You loved her and she knew it and that made her special and safe in a way that nothing else ever could as cancer came and she went. I hope that she was able to receive the gift of your presence, commitment and love during her illness with the same grace that you offered it. Be easy darling friend. We are holding you so close in our hearts.0 -
whoa Glenna, that is powerful. thanks for printing it here
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Zoh's golden thread continues to touch us.
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@ Divine and Scuttlers, I cried when I first read zoh's words and I still cry today when I read them. It is zoh's unselfishness, reaching out to someone else in pain when she was suffering so herself, that made her so special.
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Glenna--Hmm wow. Thanks for bringing it back to us, sassy
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We get the daily local newspaper, and reading the obituaries is something we've always done. Usually they give you the basics: when the person passed, who their parents were as well as spouse and children, brothers, sisters. They'll mention where the person may have worked, if they served in the Armed Forces, and then give you the funeral arrangements.
What do you think of those 'flowery' obituaries? Every once in awhile, some dearly departed soul's obit will include a long extended description of their life. For example, a recent one told of a 70 year old woman's passing, then gave great detail on how she got her college degree, began her career at such and such a place, got married to 'the love of her life'...yes, that's how it was worded...started a family, listed the organizations she and her hubby volunteered for, how they loved their social life. It discussed her love of travel and favorite places to visit, and then told about several of her hobbies.
The whole thing took up two columns in the paper. I don't care for these kinds of obits. For some reason, I find them a little weird. Maybe because most of them are sort of matter-of-fact and that's what I'm used to.
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In our newspapers the standard ones are free, the flowery ones you pay big money for. I know this because it was really important to my brother to have the whole novelette for both of my parents (he is a writer, so maybe that explains it). It meant a lot to him, and he took care of it, so I didn't say anything, but if you have flowery family members, and don't want that sort of thing, you (I) should add that wish in the instructions, "Just the facts."
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ruth, I can certainly understand your brother wanting to detail his parents' lives as he was a writer. I know some people apparently like those extended obituaries. I don't want to sound as tho I'm judging them, it's just not my preference.
I think to have just a regular obit printed in our local newspaper costs...$150!!!!!!! I keep realizing dying in big business!
There was another obituary some time back that described the woman's grade school years, how she gave her life to the Lord at a young age, went on the explain all the missionary work she did, the wonderful children she taught, ect., ect., ect.
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In my pre-planning meeting with the funeral home, part of the questionnaire was my choices for my obit. I want it simple. Name (with maiden and marriages), date of birth and where, date of death and where, and what killed me. (i.e. Died from Inflammatory Breast Cancer after a 25 year struggle.) LOL, just had to put in the 25 years here.
It is expensive to put in the long obits. I guess they would be interesting to decendents decades done the road when they are researching ancestry. What bothers me is when a "younger" person dies, a long obit is written, and it says "died of natural causes at XYZ hospital or at home". Yeah, right. Natural causes my ass.
I also do not like the little "brochures" they give out at the funeral home. What on earth are we supposed to do with them after the funeral? Keep a scrapbook? They are also very expensive.
My tombstone will have the same wording. Name (with maiden and marriages), date of birth and where, date of death and where, and what killed me.0 -
Some people write their own obits, others leave it up to family. I guess obits are a bit like fashion. Everyone has their own style. I also read the obits daily. A slightly weird habit that I have passed on to my younger dd. My only request has been to use a recent photo. No photos of me in my 20's!
Caryn0 -
Hope I am not out of place here.
I was caretaker for my father: first a year of fighting esophogeal cancer (chemo/radiation and a million doctor visits and treatments) - then his caretaker in Hospice after he had a seizure and they found a stage 4 brain tumor.
I was honored to help him say his goodbyes and I participated fulling in his last living and his leaving. My sister and I shared the responsibility of his funeral/life celebration -- and then helping my mother cope with her new widow-hood and financial changes after 61 years of marriage to the best man I had ever known.
In May I was diagnosed with my own cancer (BC - had a dbl mastectomy and immediate recon Nov 6).
I am realizing now how my experience with Dad's cancer and death was an incredible blessing -- I learned so much -- and wanted to share a couple of ideas with you wonderful women who are facing Stage 4.
It wasn't easy or convienent to be a caretaker for over a year. But it was a phenomenal opportuinty to love my father, honor my parents, experience life with an intensity that no one who hasn't lived with death can comprehend. For those of you who may fear you are over-taxing your loved ones... please know that you are also providing them with a wonderful blessing, a vital experience -- and helping them prepare for what lies ahead after you are gone.
Every single one of us will die. No one escapes it.
Hospice was a Godsend. Dad's Hospice was in Kansas City, but they are everywhere -- and for anyone who may not have reasearched yet -- Hospice is FREE and provides incredible and compassionate care in an extremely supportive (non-hospital-like) setting. Dad's was like a very comfortable upscale hotel -- we were there a month, with the best of care - morphine as needed, and a lovely room which included a sleeping couch and comfortable fold-out cot for family. Meals and a million cookies/cupcakes were available for the families 24/7, as well as grief therapists and clergy.
My Dad taught Boy Scouts for over 50 years. Every day we spent in the (very nice) garden at Hospice, sitting with nature. When it seemed Death was imminent -- one of the nurses suggested they could roll Dad's bed outside into the garden, so he could die surrounded by natural beauty. It was perfect -- for 4 days and 3 nights, Dad and I camped in the garden and never came back inside. We watched the leaves turn red and yellow. We watched the contellations pass over, and talked by the light of the moon. We shared the sun rises and sun sets. He died under the stars... and I will forever be thankful for our last shared experience -- I likened it to his base camp, supported by family and friends, while he waited to make his final ascent.
Another (potentially helpful) thing I would like to share is about the practicality of what happens after death. I see many of you are making practical preparations, so perhaps a few words from someone who did this last year would be helpful. We chose cremation, because it allowed us more time to prepare the service (we wrote the service ourselves) and a breather-space for Mom to adjust before having to see all their friends at the funeral. Cremation allowed us to wait 2 weeks to have the service. It also was incredibly cheaper - we saved thousands over a casket/etc -- and provided our own urn (I was a potter for years, and so we used my Dad's favorite cookie jar, which I had made).
We also created a 3-sided poster board in Hospice, while Dad was still with us... and covered it with photos of Dad with family and friends. It was a wonderful opportunity to reminice about good times we all shared, and marvel at how young and beautiful we all (and especially my Dad) once were... pre-cancer, pre-old-age. We then used that at the funeral service, and my mother loves looking at it still.
Lastly, I would like to share how fortunate I feel to have had deep conversations about Death and the Afterlife with my Dad during that last month. Even though we were very very close, we had never discussed those things. And I would like to reassure you that (at least for me) what I thought would be a tragic and debilitating loss -- was instead a huge opening of Spirit and Love.
I now see my father in every stunning mountain vista. I see him in every glorious sunset and sunrise. And more than that -- I feel his presence, every time I think of him -- which is often. There are no boundaries now. In my perception of the afterlife -- he can be anywhere at anytime. He is here. He is everywhere. I feel him here as I write this now... and it feels good.
Helping Dad through his cancer and death changed me forever and continues to bring me gratitude and a much-deeper appreciation for this beautiful life here on earth. Helping him prepared me for my own BC experience -- because from the first diagnosis, I KNEW that just as there was beauty and epiphany in my sharing of Dad's death -- my own cancer experience will also bring me unknown blessings. Already it has caused me to let down my vain facade, and exposed me as fully human - both frail and strong -- to my lover. It has allowed him to show me the incredible kind of man he is -- and I know we are experiencing a MUCH deeper connection because of the cancer now in our life.
Lastly -- I would like to tell you about a conversation Dad and I had about a week before he died.
I was (at the time) 56 years old. My entire life I have had a pretty miserable track record with men.
I jokingly told Dad that once he was in heaven -- if he found himself with some spare time... I would be very receptive to his 'meddling' -- Could he help send me a great man?
He chuckled and told me he would.
I was corresponding with several men through E-Harmony at the time -- via my laptop every night as I lay in Dad's room at Hospice. I often couldn't sleep, because Dad would awake with a start - disoriented, attempting to leap out of bed to "go clean the garage" -- but he was too weak to stand -- so it was important that I be ready to reassure him and keep him in bed. Anyway, after that conversation with Dad -- one wonderful man on E-Harmony began to quickly emerge as the total 'keeper'. He was a wildlife biologist, who lives on an incredibly beautiful ranch in the mountains. My father (the old Boy Scout) would have loved this place. He would have loved the conversations about elk, deer, land management. He would have loved this kind, gentle angel of a man with whom I now live -- and it comforts me to see Dad's hand in sending him to me. No one could have done a better job, and no one but Dad could have known how perfectly we would connect.
I urge you to consider having these sorts of conversations with your own loved ones. Whether you can follow through from the other side or not -- it will bring your families MUCH joy to see your "meddling' in their happiness, even after you are gone. And who knows -- maybe you can actually pull some strings.
We are all made of energy. The first law of thermodynamics is that energy can't be created or destroyed -- it can only change form and move from place to place.
So it must be with life energy, too. Somehow -- our energy goes on. We simply change form, and move to another place.
Love and Light to you all -- You may not know it -- but you are a gift -- and you are unknowingly bestowing blessings to all around you.
Linda
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I like the detailed obituaries. And it serves as a piece of recorded history for future genealogy buffs.
I always imagine, they are also the people who send out Christmas letters
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Linda,
Thankyou for telling us of your experience with your father with hospice. It seems he had the best of care. I've read a lot of books letting us know that living on earth is only a temporary existence. I wish everyone would have the same experience when it came their time to go.
Terri
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Yes, Linda, I appreciated your taking the time to post of your Dad's passing, the experience you had.
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Thank you Linda. You've made it a little easier to accept, what my family might have to deal with.
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Bedside care for the dying
The following are more loving care suggestions (continued from May's newsletter):
·Use nice smelling creams, oils and lotions for generous foot/leg and hand/arm massages.
As a person nears imminent death, many people decide not to change positions so frequently. But there is another reason (besides skin protection) to change positions regularly—to help with the noisy congestion that can accumulate in the back of the throat. Changing positions will help with drainage.
Have a cool mist humidifier to increase the humidity in the room. It will help with the dryness of their skin, mouth, eyes, and nose.
Don’t ask questions of the dying. Tell stories. Encourage the family to tell them how their day was, memories, etc.(They can’t respond and can get agitated trying to answer questions)
Check their skin. Make sure that their skin is not irritated by oxygen tubing: check nose, cheeks, ears and jaw line. You can pad the tubing to prevent skin irritation. Also make sure ears are laying flat against their head on the side where the head is laying against the pillow. Make sure their skin is not bunched up or being stretched on the side they are laying on along the rest of their body.
Have soft lighting in the room with the person. Use candles or if you are in the hospital or somewhere where candles aren’t allowed or wanted, get the artificial ones.
What are their favorite sounds? Music? Have their familiar sounds present. Harp music has been shown to be therapeutic with the dying. See if there is an organization in your city that will come play music.
Put some of their favorite things in eye view of where they can see it if they should open their eyes (pictures, memorabilia).
Most people’s feet are cold, have warm socks on their feet. Have their favorite blanket on them.
Get a book of visualizations and/or meditations and read to them. Or create them yourself personal to the dying person. Consider having some beautiful music playing in the background while you do.
Sit at the bedside with the dying, hold their hand if it’s soothing for them, with intention of a peaceful passing, prayers for their soul and reassurance. Explain to the family about this. Encourage them to do it.
Take dirty briefs/pads to the outside trash immediately. Launder dirty sheets immediately to not have smells trapped in the room/house.
What are their favorite smells? Have a pot pourri burner or essential oil burner in the room to maintain beautiful aromas.
“Carve your name on hearts, not tombstones. A legacy is etched into the minds of others and the stories they share about you.”
~ Shannon L. Alder
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I like these suggestions. I think I'll print them out for my family. K0 -
Printing these. May add a few of my own, to make it more specific. Thanks.
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My mom was a great, great reader. When she was dying (and seemingly unconsious), I grabbed the book she had been reading from her house, brought it to the hospital and read all day and all night without stopping until we got to the last page. I knew she would not want to go with an unfinished plot still dangling! I don't know if she was at all aware, but it made me feel better anyway.
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Ruth,
How wonderful! You made me smile. And I do believe she heard your voice...
Love to you,
Rose.0 -
Divine, in Re: to the long obits. I think in some way it's away for a loved one to say good bye. Also, the feeling that they want the person's life remembered as being consequential. We all have done something in our life that we were quite proud of, yet, few remember. The obit is away to put it all together in one last hurrah. Then there is the situation where a local paper has an assigned reporter to "pick" someone that has a "history of note" and do the reporting and the family or loved one is only involved as a source of info. :)sheila/sassy
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this is a website in which you can write your own, which I did...
http://www.obitnow.com/index.html
Sandy
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Ruth
, we all as readers so understand what you did, sure your Mom was appreciative OBNX So So practical, yet not known. Thanks!
Linda-R--beautifully written. The Humanity of encouraging you to take Dad to the garden. There is a thread that needs your words right now. Any objection if I cut and paste? I'll send you a Pm with the this request.
Bon
HugsL&H&P's to all, Namaste. May all of many beliefs, find solace this season. sheila /sassy
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