Treating estrogen responsive cancer naturally
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ChiSandy-- I agree with everything you wrote in your last post, just wondering what your background is in? You seem very knowledgeable and I was wondering if this was self taught or part of your profession?
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I am a cardiologist’s wife, mostly-retired attorney (did some personal injury & med-mal work) and lifelong card-carrying hypochondriac. Had always wanted to be a doctor, but when I walked into the freshman pre-med orientation meeting and saw “statistics” and “calculus” on the blackboard, I turned on my heel and walked out. “English, political science…those would be nice majors,” I thought.
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ChiSandy, completely agree, especially on the gluten. For most people, gluten is absolutely not a problem. A diet high in refined starches IS a problem. It affects insulin metabolism, and not in a good way. It may also negatively affect gut flora, which is getting more and more attention lately as a possible factor in many illnesses, and it contributes to inflammation. Liquid sugar, whether juice or sodas, is another thing that nobody needs as a regular thing.
I have found that when I eat a diet high in veggies, focus on starches that are high in fibre, like beans, chickpeas, bulgur, whole grains etc. and augment with modest amounts of animal protein of some kind as well as some nuts, my weight is stable and I feel well. The main fat in my diet is olive oil. It is really rare that I eat anything processed/ready-made from the supermarket and I have stopped relying on pasta dishes as a quick go-to meal long ago. If I really crave pasta, which happens once in a blue moon, I add a modest amount of pasta to a large portion of some sort of veggie sauce.
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Fat rats show why breast cancer may be more aggressive in patients with obesity
Published August 9, 201
Women with obesity are more likely to get breast cancer, and a number of studies have provided a reasonable explanation why: after menopause, fat tissue manufactures estrogen, and the estrogen then promotes tumorgrowth. But why, then, do women with obesity continue to have more aggressive tumors even after anti-estrogen treatment? Once the tumor's source of estrogen is removed, obesity should have no effect on prognosis, but it does.
A University of Colorado Cancer Center study published in the journal Hormones & Cancer offers a possible explanation: In an animal model of obesity and breast cancer (affectionately referred to as the "fat rat"), tumor cells in obese animals, but not lean animals, had especially sensitive androgen receptors, allowing these cells to magnify growth signals from the hormone testosterone. Similar to the way in which many breast cancers drive their growth with estrogen receptors, these tumors in obese rats drove their growth with androgen receptors.
"Our original goal was to make a model of obesity and breast cancer that would reflect the condition in women. At first, we were disappointed to discover that rats don't make much estrogen in fat tissue like humans do. But we then realized that this aspect of the model gave us an excellent opportunity to study cancer progression after anti-estrogen treatment. Because fat cells in these rats don't make estrogen, they are like human breast cancer patients treated to remove estrogen. This allowed us to ask what is responsible for obesity-associated tumor progression in conditions of low estrogen availability," says Elizabeth Wellberg, PhD, the paper's first author, who works with Steven Anderson, PhD and Paul MacLean, PhD. Dr. Anderson is the vice chair for research at CU Cancer Center and James C. Todd Professor of Experimental Pathology in the CU School of Medicine. Dr. MacLean is a professor in the Division of Endocrinology, Metabolism, & Diabetes, also in the CU SOM. Together, these investigators and their team have identified an important role for obesity in changing how breast tumors respond to hormones.
About 40 percent of American women have obesity; about 75 percent of breast cancers are estrogen-receptor positive, most of which will go on to be treated with anti-estrogen therapies. This combination means that thousands of women every year could benefit from treatments aimed at the aspects of obesity that promote breast cancer in low- or non-estrogen environments.
Androgen receptors and their hormone partner, testosterone, have long been known as drivers of prostate cancer and work at CU Cancer Center and elsewhere is implicating androgen as a driver in many breast cancers. When Wellberg and colleagues treated their obese rats with the anti-androgen drug enzalutamide, existing tumors shrank and new tumors failed to form. But this brought up another question: If overactive androgen receptors create poor prognosis in obese breast cancer patients, what is creating these overactive androgen receptors? It wasn't that they were simply responding to more testosterone - it was that these receptors had been somehow tuned to be more sensitive to existing levels of testosterone.
"When you talk about what's different between lean and obese individuals there are a lot of things - resistance to insulin, high sugar, and an elevated inflammatory response, what we call chronic low-grade inflammation, to name a few. In a lot of ways, you can walk through these differences looking for what may be causing this androgen receptor sensitivity," says Anderson.
The group had previously shown that a component of inflammation, namely levels of a cytokine known as interleukin 6 (IL-6), is higher in the circulation of obese compared to lean rats. In the current paper, the group shows that administering IL-6 to breast cancer cells amplifies the activity of androgen receptors. In all, the storyline of this paper suggests the following:
- Obesity leads to inflammation
- Inflammation is associated with higher levels of IL-6
- IL-6 sensitizes androgen receptors
- Sensitized androgen receptors amplify growth signals that drive breast cancer even in an environment of low estrogen availability.
The current paper and others in this line of study lay the groundwork for considering obesity as a variable in the clinic.
"Down the line, we can imagine a day in which the BMI or metabolic state of breast cancer patients would be considered when choosing a treatment. These patients may benefit significantly from a more personalized therapeutic strategy, based on what obesity is doing to the tumor environment," Wellberg says.
Article: The Androgen Receptor Supports Tumor Progression After the Loss of Ovarian Function in a Preclinical Model of Obesity and Breast Cancer, Elizabeth Wellberg et al., Hormones & Cancer, doi: 10.1007/s12672-017-0302-9, published online 24 July 2017.
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I was looking into il-6 after reading this article. Il-6 is both pro- and anti-inflammatory. Anti when it is released by muscles after exercise and pro when released by immune cells. With my history of allergies and autoimmune disease, even at a normal bmi, il-6 probably is a factor in my health. But exercise does make my allergies a lot better and has gotten me into remission from autoimmune episodes in the past (without meds). Keeping pro-inflammatory il-6 low seems to make sense to prevent sensitizing androgen receptors in a low-estrogen environment even for non-fat rats. My onc checks CRP (c-reactive protein) which is increased by il-6 and has remained low. Not sure if this is a reliable proxy though so will ask about measuring il-6 next time I see him.
There are il-6 inhibitors used for rheumatoid arthritis but there are natural ways to lower il-6:
Positive emotions (especially awe, wonder, and amazement), calorie restriction, meditation, catching up on sleep, veggies, legumes, nuts, oats, olive oil, Mediterranean diet, cashew, spirulina, garlic, raspberries, to name a few.
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I want to thank all you ladies for the intelligent and constructive content of your posts! I believe diet is key to our health. My husband is a chronic pain patient. We have been working on his leaky gut for several years. I also found that he has severe sensitivity to all nightshade foods( tomatoes, potatoes, peppers, eggplant). We have removed nearly all processed food from our home. I wish more people knew about the dangers of processed food, evils of sugar, and the myth that fat is bad for them.
I'm not ready to give up my aromitase inhibitor, but I do love reading your research.
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I am enjoying the reading on this board. So many ideas to consider and perhaps incorporate in my lifestyle. I was offered Tamoxifen, but I refused. I was Dx January 2017, lumpectomy 1/2017, 1/23 lymphnodes, Estrogen positive, Stage IIa,
I am following some of the advice of Elyn Jacobs. This is where I learned about DIM and flaxseed.
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Hi, just found this topic today and really enjoy it. I am trying to avoid Hormone therapy, so doing some research on what I can do to help prevent recurrence. What surprises me is that I have seen no mention of Chaga anywhere. Is anyone taking Chaga tea or tincture?
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https://community.breastcancer.org/forum/136/topics/844633?page=2#idx_41
Maulwurf1
Research provided for your topic; Chaga mushroom
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Hi My Sisters on this Journey,
I'm going to order this Cell Stop supplement. I think It looks great for helping those of us who wish to try it!
Hugs,
Hippie Girl 0 -
Groundbreaking Study Shows Fasting Can Slow Aging, Rebuild Immune System |
http://tapnewswire.com/2017/08/groundbreaking-stud...0 -
I would like to know what the specific balance is
"The fasting mimicking diet cuts a person's daily caloric intake over the fasting period down to 34 to 54 percent of their daily average, with a specific balance of micronutrients, fats, carbohydrates, and proteins."
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I guess it's not all out yet, 70 people in a trial. Here's a good you tube One Meal a day
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Hello everybody,
I am very bad time, I`m really struggling to get this right because it is so important in my life. I need help. I am no able to decide if take or no take tamoxifen. I am 45 years old, and I didn't need chemotherapy, just surgery and radiation. But thinking in taking tamoxifen for 5 years is killing me. I will be grateful for testimony of someone who despite being advised to take tamoxifen didn't do. I would like to know if you don't take tamoxifen you don't have any chance to be free of BC. Someone of you do have overcome a BC (low risk, 12mm) without taking tamoxifen?
Please, and looking for testimonies of person who didn't take tamoxifen, not for opinions about this topic, because I have a lot information about this drogue and i so confused.
Somebody can help me explaining her experience?
Thank you everybody in advance
Medea
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Medea, everyone responds differently to tamoxifen. My advice would be to try it and see how your body responds, then decide if you want to continue taking it or not. If you have few side effects, I think it's worth taking it!! But only you can decide.
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Medea, it's a tough thing to decide because we are all so different. Someone may come along and say me! but then someone else with similar #s won't. It's always best to really talk with your oncologist about risk vs benefits. As for me, se's are pretty much none thankfully. I have on and off abdominal discomfort but it's so very manageable for me. Yet there are people who are sidelined with it. Same with AI's. They left me completely debilitated so while AI would be better for me to be on in terms of possible additional benefit, I can't do it. Too many harsh se's. As said above, you can always try it. If it's too much you can stop it. Discuss with your onc because she/he knows you best with your profile and whatever stuff you may have going on, and we are all so very different in how we respond to any med.
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I loved finding this forum and finding so many of you that share in my passion for complimentary and alternative (CAM) methods to treating BC. I feel like my brain is spinning with all the information I have gathered. Every time I find another topic, I research and research, and find myself down the path of a completely different topic! By the end of the night I have over a dozen tabs open on my iPad!
I too agree with so many of you about the importance of exercise and maintaining a healthy weight. My demon is stress, and I am spending more time in prayer and after I recover from my BMX surgery which is this coming Tuesday, I will add yoga back into my exercise routine.
As for supplemental/vitamins, I was wondering if any of you have researched or taken B-17/Laetrile or Beta-Glucan-- or exotic mushroom extracts. I have been taking a broccoli sprout supplement because of its effect on estrogen methylation-- ridding the body of excess estrogen.... def worth you all looking into too. How about essential oils-- anyone using frankincense or myrrh oil?
I look forward to hearing from you all, and consider it a blessing to be a part of this conversation!
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MamaFelice, I read quite a bit about Laetrile at one point. What gave me pause was this:
"The side effects of laetrile are like the symptoms of cyanide poisoning (see Question 7)." https://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/treatment/cam/patient/laetrile-pdq
I agree that the piles of info out there can make your head spin. Especially when you then try to figure out what is credible info and what is not.
The nice thing with exercise, healthy diet/weight and yoga/meditation/prayer is that all those things are likely to help, likely to contribute to QOL, and unlikely to cause you any harm. Once you get into supplements, it gets far more murky and difficult to navigate.
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About the “fat rat” study: it’s useful to younger women of normal weight, but is a cruel and futile slap in the face to those of us who had been obese for quite a while before developing breast cancer. Why? Because it’s the fat cells, not the fat in them, that produce the androgens whose conversion aromatase converts to estrogen. And while it is always possible to burn fat, the only way to get rid of the cells themselves is to remove them surgically (excision or liposuction). Freezing them (Cool Sculpting) kills too few to be meaningful, and Kybella only works on facial & neck fat cells, which aren’t metabolically active the way breast & abdominal fat cells are. And to make matters worse, when regaining lost weight, women can actually make more fat cells (hyperplastic obesity) rather than just refilling existing cells (hypertrophic obesity).
Those of us who are willing to foreclose the future possibility of DIEP flap reconstruction ought to be offered the option of breast reduction and abdominal liposuction to alter body composition and increase the percentage of brown fat cells (hips, thighs, buttocks—which stimulate burning of both fat and the muscles’ glycogen stores) relative to white fat cells (breast and abdomen, which can cause insulin resistance and synthesize estrogen from androgens).
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MamaFelice
Yes B17 - Apricot kernels to the uninitiated - do indeed share some things with Cyanide, but the trick with taking them is to take some every few hours. I don't take them anymore as I am sick and tired of running around like a rattling bottle full of supps, especially now as my tumours have been taken away and I gave into orthodox medicine and had the works.
I remember something along the lines that one should take no more than 9 at any given time and ideally about 32 in a day. So you just spread out the doses to three and a bit doses a day.
Who knows if it does any good? I managed to keep away from the knife for over 5 years. Sadly there is no way of knowing how much my CAM supps helped. I am sure, a lot, but there is no way of knowing or measuring.
Good luck.
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Dear ChiSandy
Thin women get BC too! Have you any idea how galling that is? Being fit, active and slim and I still got BC?
You seem to know a lot about different types of fat in the body. I also know that fatter people don't necessarily have more fat cells, they just have bigger fat cells.
If one has BC one has to look to one's diet. No excuses. It is more difficult for some women to lose weight than others, of course, but we all have our demons, and we have to deal with them. I have kept myself to an incredibly strict diet for 6 years and now have reduced the rigour as I have had all the orthodox treatment now and I decided that sticking to a very tight diet is just more stress. Basically avoid sugar and milk as definites. The rest is common sense. Not easy, but surely we all know the basics of what a good diet should be by now in 2017?
Good luck.
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Ladybird, having searched high and low, I have not seen any actual evidence that dairy is a no-no in BC or generally a terrible thing. I have seen some correlations suggesting that we should stay away from high-fat dairy, i.e. cheese (sigh!), but not dairy in general.
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I had breast cancer in 1982. At that time there was really no after-treatment except for annual blood work. In 2010 I had cancer in the other breast. Was told to get radiation and to take an AI. I turned both down. I eat healthy foods, do lots of exercise and so far so good.
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Great to hear dogsandjogs. Thanks.
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There is no consensus as to whether dietary fat, dairy (rather than any additives that found its way into it), or sugar is the primary driver of bc. As to obesity, research is increasingly tilting, if not to consensus then to preponderance of opinion, that sugar & other refined carbs and NOT dietary fat causes obesity. And as to fat, even naturally saturated fats are no longer the villains. One thing all nutritionists agree, though, is that foods that cause inflammation in a given person need to be minimized or avoided (inflammatory cytokines—>free radicals—>oxidative stress—>cell damage)…except during rads & chemo, when cell damage is the goal. And what causes inflammation can vary from person to person—intolerances, sensitivities, increased levels of stress hormones (cortisol) in response to eating something to which one has an aversion, or even allergies (which are the archetypal inflammatory response).
The advice to stay away from high-fat dairy is outmoded—as both my PCP and MO concur that organic, full-fat dairy is fine if tolerated and doesn’t displace necessary foods or increase caloric intake enough to cause weight gain or impede weight loss. Organic (from grass-fed cows foraging on untreated pastures) to minimize any exposure to growth hormones, pesticide residue or antibiotics (cattle never evolved to eat grain w/o drastic distress, and feedlot cattle wallow in waste and require abx to treat them before slaughter). Low-fat and especially non-fat dairy is high in sugars (lactose & galactose) even if plain, no sugars added & unflavored; and often sugars and other refined-carb products are added to reproduce the mouthfeel & texture lost when fat is removed.
The start of the obesity epidemic can be traced directly to the onset of advice to follow low-fat diets. Snackwells, sorbets & nonfat Yoplait have proven more dangerous than ice cream & gelato, not just because of the added sugars but the psychological subtext for most people that because they’re non-fat it’s okay to eat more of them—whereas portion control comes with the territory when it comes to conventional desserts.
Unfortunately, you will not be hearing this yet from most registered dieticians & nutritionists, nor even older physicians. (Nutrition was almost as much of an afterthought as is lymphedema in the med school curriculum). Dieticians are still following USDA guidelines developed beginning in 1977—which put whole grains just above produce at the base (i.e., eat more of them) of the "food pyramid” and fats & oils up top. The advice of Ancel Keys (now becoming discredited) that only polyunsaturated fats (liquid vegetable oils) are desirable and that dietary fat raises blood lipid levels is also increasingly debunked—especially with the discovery that most seed & nut oils are high in inflammatory Omega-6s rather than beneficial Omega-3s. It is no coincidence that USDA guidelines were heavily influenced by agribusiness (mostly grain & soy lobbies, major campaign contributors). And the sugar, soda, and processed food lobbies are still heavy legislative influencers (note the industry campaigns against sweetened-drink taxes, which are disingenuously couched as discrimination against the poor & minorities whose diets are disproportionately high in cheap sugary foods & drinks).
The only valid reasons to be vegetarian or vegan are religious, environmental or ethical. Otherwise, Michael Pollan’s (In Defense of Food, The Omnivore’s Dilemma) advice still holds: “Eat food*. Mostly plants. Not too much.”
*real unprocessed food
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mamafelice~
I take several different kinds of mushrooms; Turkey Tail, Reishi, chaga. I also take AHCC, which is a mushroom complex. All have a good amount of beta glucans.
I also take a couple of products from New Chapter, they grow and ferment their supplements which produces a decent amount of beta glucans as well.
I keep frankincense essential oil on hand and use on my breasts and sometimes the bottoms of my feet.
love this thread... thanks
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Hello everyone,
It's pretty early in my BC journey and am researching my options for treatment. I had a lumpectomy for a radial scar and a 6mm stage 1, grade 2 IDC was found within it. 2 weeks later I had a node dissection, which was negative. In a week I leave for brachytherapy treatment to the tumor area. It's all been a bit of a blur since my father has had 5 surgeries, bilateral amputations and sepsis since Memorial day. Hard to tell which end is up some days.
Since the first of the year I've been following a ketogenic diet and have lost 50 lbs. (All before diagnosis). Since this has been an extremely stressful summer in my life, I'm not eating as many leafy greens and berries as I should and have ordered a greens powder to help with my antioxidants. I already take 2000 D with A and K2, Magnesium, Nordic Natural fish oil and an occasional probiotic.
Once I get back from radiation in AZ, I'll meet with a MO and see what he/she recommends, which I've heard will be tamoxifen since I am 54 but still have monthly cycles.
Thanks for sharing the research and articles on the alternatives out there. It will help with my decisions to come.
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Hi BosumBlues, I ordered Primal Greens Superfood Powder off of Amazon. Haven't started it yet, but am hoping it will fill in some of the gaps until I can have time to shop and prep a better diet.
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dogsandjogs...you are a great example of how recurrence is a crap shoot no matter what the treatment or lack of it! Continued good health.
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Yes-- crap shoot. I was celebrating 24 years cancer free from my Hodgkin's Lymphoma when I learned of my BC.....which is result of the radiation treatments I received 24 years ago. We all do what we can each day. Cannot let worry overtake our spirits! I find when I am focused on different things that i can control for my health that it empowers me and helps me mentally (and hopefully to some extent physically too), to know I am fighting this disease every day. As I mentioned in an earlier post, stress is my demon that I need to get better control over. I overwhelm myself with wanting to be super mom, super wife, super friend, daughter, sister, boss, community leader, etc. Need to take a back step and realize that I need to be super me for a while.
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