Catholics
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Good evening sisters,
It's been a busy day. I was given permission to work from home and was busier here than I usually am at work!
Sheila: Wonderful news about your tests!!!! What a relief! I'm sorry your son is moving 2.5 hours away, but that's not toooo bad. Are you both ok about driving and visiting each other? DH and I drive that amount or more every day between our two commutes! :-)
Wonderful advice from Sheila and Traci today!! Paula is well armed. I'm sorry you have to suffer with that place.
Janet: I'm glad you're seeing at PT... mine took my measurements too for a baseline. My surgery was on my right side and I'm right handed, so naturally, that side is a little bigger than my left. I do not have any swelling and hope it stays that way. I've been trying to break in my sleeve before our fight on the 20th. That's a long time to wear that tight thing.
Ok, I was going to post some research on the St. Michael the Archangel prayer and St. Leo XIII. It's a lot, so please bear with me. There are varying stories about how St. Leo received the vision but they're all similar. I was very interested to read that there was a longer version of the prayer originally. The little church were we attend Mass in tidewater Virginia always says the St. Michael prayer at the end of Mass. So, here comes the story.
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St. Michael
Saint Michael is an Archangel, a powerful angel who serves God, a warrior who often spars with the terrors of Hell, and an example of sanctity for the souls of man. Christian tradition names to him the following four charges: to fight against Satan; to rescue the souls of the faithful from the Devil, especially at the hour of death; to attend the dying and accompany them to judgment; and, to be the champion of God's people and the Patron Saint and Protector of the Church. Devotion to St. Michael has been present in the lives of the Catholic faithful from the earliest centuries of the Church.Pope Leo XIII Vision
In the vision of Pope Leo XIII, St. Michael appears at the last instant before Satan completes his plan of the total conquest of man, and he drives satan and his demons back into the pits of hell to be bound for all eternity. According to the Pope, the prayer of St. Michael is man's invocation for that intercession.In 1884, Pope Leo XIII collapsed into what is allegedly a mystical ecstasy. He witnessed a confrontation between Jesus and Satan, and saw evil demons being released from hell. To protect the Church and all families, he wrote a Leonine Exorcism which he mandated to be said after each Mass from that point forth.
In 1934, however, Pope Leo's intercessory prayer was changed without explanation. It is believed that it was suppressed due to its startling content. It was replaced by an abbreviated Prayer to St. Michael, which still is powerful but not as compelling as the original.
The original prayer to St. Michael was a very powerful intercessory prayer. The Catholic Catechism lists five kinds of prayers for Christians: Prayers of Blessing, Petition, Thanksgiving, Praise, and Intercession. An intercessory prayer is when one prays to the Father for help, to bless, comfort, and especially to intervene on behalf of aid and assistance for special intentions.
The Original Prayer to St. Michael the Archangel
The original prayer to St. Michael was 594 words long. Here is a shortened version: "O Glorious Archangel St. Michael, Prince of the heavenly host, be our defense in the terrible warfare which we carry on against principalities and Powers, against the rulers of this world of darkness, spirits of evil. Come to the aid of man, whom God created immortal, made in his own image and likeness, and redeemed at a great price from the tyranny of the devil. Fight this day the battle of the Lord, together with the holy angels, as already thou hast fought the leader of the proud angels, Lucifer, and his apostate host, who were powerless to resist thee, nor was there place for them any longer in Heaven...."The New Prayer to St. Michael
The new prayer, which was written in 1934, is only 59 words long. It reads, "St. Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle, be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil; may God rebuke him, we humbly pray; and do thou, O Prince of the heavenly host, by the power of God, thrust into hell Satan and all evil spirits who wander through the world for the ruin of souls. Amen."In 1934, Pope Leo's incredible prayer was changed without explanation. The Pope also saw to it that the Saint Michael prayer was recited after every low Mass throughout the world, and this (and even the new modified prayer to St. Michael) was discontinued in 1970 by Vatican II, again without explanation. This prayer is not said at Mass today, and there remains some controversy in the Catholic Church as to the events and reasons for these changes.
Sites:
The above from:
http://www.suite101.com/content/the-original-prayer-to-st-michael-the-archangel-a94667http://www.traditioninaction.org/religious/b009rpMichael.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prayer_to_Saint_Michael
http://the-american-catholic.com/2010/01/24/pope-leo-and-saint-michael-the-archangel/0 -
The Shortened version of the Prayer to St. Michael is posted on our Catholic Prayers thread.
Original - Prayer to St. Michael
"O Glorious Prince of the heavenly host, St. Michael the Archangel, defend us in the battle and in the terrible warfare that we are waging against the principalities and powers, against the rulers of this world of darkness, against the evil spirits. Come to the aid of man, whom Almighty God created immortal, made in His own image and likeness, and redeemed at a great price from the tyranny of Satan.
"Fight this day the battle of the Lord, together with the holy angels, as already thou hast fought the leader of the proud angels, Lucifer, and his apostate host, who were powerless to resist thee, nor was there place for them any longer in Heaven. That cruel, ancient serpent, who is called the devil or Satan who seduces the whole world, was cast into the abyss with his angels. Behold, this primeval enemy and slayer of men has taken courage. Transformed into an angel of light, he wanders about with all the multitude of wicked spirits, invading the earth in order to blot out the name of God and of His Christ, to seize upon, slay and cast into eternal perdition souls destined for the crown of eternal glory. This wicked dragon pours out, as a most impure flood, the venom of his malice on men of depraved mind and corrupt heart, the spirit of lying, of impiety, of blasphemy, and the pestilent breath of impurity, and of every vice and iniquity."These most crafty enemies have filled and inebriated with gall and bitterness the Church, the spouse of the immaculate Lamb, and have laid impious hands on her most sacred possessions. In the Holy Place itself, where the See of Holy Peter and the Chair of Truth has been set up as the light of the world, they have raised the throne of their abominable impiety, with the iniquitous design that when the Pastor has been struck, the sheep may be.
"Arise then, O invincible Prince, bring help against the attacks of the lost spirits to the people of God, and give them the victory. They venerate thee as their protector and patron; in thee holy Church glories as her defense against the malicious power of hell; to thee has God entrusted the souls of men to be established in heavenly beatitude. Oh, pray to the God of peace that He may put Satan under our feet, so far conquered that he may no longer be able to hold men in captivity and harm the Church. Offer our prayers in the sight of the Most High, so that they may quickly find mercy in the sight of the Lord; and vanquishing the dragon, the ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, do thou again make him captive in the abyss, that he may no longer seduce the nations. Amen.
V. Behold the Cross of the Lord; be scattered ye hostile powers.
R. The Lion of the tribe of Judah has conquered the root of David.
V. Let Thy mercies be upon us, O Lord.
R. As we have hoped in Thee.
V. O Lord, hear my prayer.
R. And let my cry come unto Thee.Let us pray.
O God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, we call upon Thy holy Name, and as supplicants, we implore Thy clemency, that by the intercession of Mary, ever Virgin Immaculate and our Mother, and of the glorious St. Michael the Archangel, Thou wouldst deign to help us against Satan and all the other unclean spirits who wander about the world for the injury of the human race and the ruin of souls. Amen."0 -
Wow Theresa - that's pretty powerful! Maybe they should bring the original prayer back! The papacy & Vatican has always intrigued me. Something very evil must have gone on for the pope to react that way & for that prayer. I wish I was a better scholar. Didn't Pope Benedict recently intimate that the entire priest abuse situation from the beginning was the work of the devil to destroy God's house (ie Vatican)? Afterall, the popes are the unbroken chain of succession since Jesus named St. Peter as the first leader of the church.
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Theresa,
Very interesting! Too bad there isn't more known about the reasons behind this decision. What's the words, transparency? Without being too political here, did Pope Benedict reference the destruction of the souls of those victimized vs. God's house? I in no way am looking to offend, I just feel like the victims have been largely overlooked, and we cannot forget them. I Pray ALL get the help they need, and that there is transparency from here on out in all of our Sacred Houses and Institutions.
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Hi girls!
I am feeling 90 % better... wow, a bad back is horrid!
I hope this finds you well!
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Luara,
Yes a bad back is horrid. I am so glad you are at 90%! Are you going to try a little PT? I am going to re-start when I can, as my core is quite week. I hope this never happens again to you....can you attribute it to anything? Lifting? old injury?
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So, Theresa what is your analysis of the change? Two periods one during preWW2 and then Vatican 2. Both odd timing and very divergent in complexity. Since you have studied it, have you any conclusions. Don't deny your estimations. There a famous statement in that regard, but I can't remember it. Basically it said , your studied estimation was as good as any experts. It was either simpler or more complex in words. Might have been Mark Twain/Samuel Adams???
The Church in so many regards has been it's own worst enemy historically.
But all religions have wrought problems that were never meant to be, by the original person. In christianity It is Jesus, How many wars were fought and people killed using his name . Now we have the other major wars throughout the world using their leaders name which I won't say because people all over the world have been killed and executed because they stated such.
We here are trying to seek the benevolence of our beliefs.
When we had an earlier discussion of evil and you gave your very good explanation that it wasn't up to us to judge evil, that could only occur by God at judgement, well teach me again why not. I am not challenging your insight into what you taught me before. It brought great understanding to me for my anger at a single individual that I saw do great harm to others.
But now you have presented a different situation where the church in two situations again very divergent, changed their approach/position/perhaps belief?? What are we to make of that??
How are we supposed to comprehend the churches change when no explanation is given?
What I found oddest about your post was the Vatican 2 change, of 1970, but Vatican 2 occured a decade earlier. Did Pope John the 23rd have anything to do with it?
With the learning that you are going through with your Franciscan training is that is what is bringing to your attention these things or is it individual learning? the importance of that question to me, is what is it we are not being taught through regular church teaching -----does that seem like a reasonable question?
Thank you so much for all the work you have done on the prayer thread. It is unmeasurable, over time what people, women and men, will gain from that thread by reading what they choose as a prayer that they may not have had access to. It will continue for years and years and years. Imagine that. The impact that you have had. You are blessed, and as a result we all are because we cared enough to believe , we could change something.
And we have a thread that we can refer to each time we want to remind ourselves or add people to our prayers.
So what do we change next---
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Traci - indeed the church has done a lot of soul seaching and taken big steps.. And, I'm no expert so anyone correct me if I'm wrong. Logistically, just about every law has been changed (for example US Conf. of Bishops) - screening of applicants to priesthood, curriculum in seminaries, psychological testing, and zero tolerance, etc. To be even a substitute teacher in a Catholic school now requires police background check, fingerprinting and mandatory day-long training. Compensation for victims (whether result of lawsuit or not), victim counseling, etc etc. None of that can change what happened and the grief it has caused (victims, the church, the fallen priests, and Catholics all over the world) but it should prevent it in the future. I think what the pope meant was referencing (and not in isolation of all the other actions taken) the real existence of evil that preys on the weaknesses of humans to try to destroy souls and God (and the church). The church, afterall, is God's people on earth. My own belief is that evil has a bullseye on the Vatican and every other religion for that matter. The prayer to St. Michael is a reminder of that.
Let us pray, dear Lord, to protect your people from every force of evil. Amen.
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Janet,
Yes, this has been devastating for so many, and this should not take away from the good works of those who have devoted their lives to the Priesthood, the Sisters or anyone in the Church. What is not spoken about enough is the cycle of abuse. That's the lesson for me to remember, is that victims of abuse often grow up to be offenders. So the healing needs to be deep. We can't be blind to human fallacies, evil, ill intent etc...all institutions have been affected.
It's interesting, the more prayer I bring into my life, and that means worship with my Sisters here, the greater my desire to edit my words, monitor what I see and hear. I don't live under a rock, and see life in it's fullness, as I honestly feel I have to for my job. I cannot fully know someone else's experience, but I need to hear each person's testimony. But I feel a stronger drive to pull up towards the light. Does that make sense?
There was an excellent post in the thread I come to the garden...Meece started it. I often pop over to look at the pictures, and someone shared an article written by Ben Stein, and it was such an eye opener. I am going to find it, and hope we can share it here, or go there to read it. The gist of his essay is related to the chaos in today's world, and how we are chastised if we bring God up in topics, the pulling of Religion out of schools and the impact. I am pretty liberal in many things, but this was spot on, and I learned a lot. I'll get the page # to let you know where it is.
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Wow, lots of questions! I'm no scholar by ANY means. I just root around and try to find meaning out of things that appear crazy to me. Some things I'll never understand and I have to accept it. Skip originally sent me that story on the St. Michael Prayer b/c he knew that I prayed it, if not every day, then about every day, and the first time he heard it was in our little church in tidewater VA. There is a very traditional priest there.
The Catholic church has always been a bulls eye, as Janet put it, from the beginning with Peter to present day Benedict. Evil does get into it by way of human beings doing bad things, like the recent abuses by priests. That does not make the church evil, though... Jesus promised us that it would continue as the apple of His eye until his second coming. So even if we have bad priests, bishops, cardinals, popes, the church will live on with its solid doctrine. That brings me GREAT comfort. Some will say, "How can you go to church when you know there is a bad priest there, how can he consecrate the Eucharist?" Again, it's not the priest's church; it's Christ's church and Christ is consecrating the Eucharist for us. I once went to a church for years when my kids were younger and the pastor of the church was just not a nice guy. My son was an altar boy and didn't like serving when this priest said Mass, but did it out of obediance. The associate pastor was really the wonderful priest who took the boys on outings and made them happy to be altar boys. Anyway, this not nice priest gave the BEST homilies!!! We never could understand it. But somehow, either he didn't write his own homilies or when he did, the Spirit helped him. So he was able to reach many of us. But years later, I read that he was arrested for downloading child porn. Like I said, not a nice guy. But any church or any organization will have people in it doing bad things... look at the boy scouts and their adult abuses to the boys.
Back to Pope Leo, St. Michael and Pope Benedict... the stories differ a bit about how/when Leo had the vision, but the common theme was that he saw something horrible... like a conversation between Jesus and Satan and St. Michael defeating Satan (you've probably seen the famous statues and pictures of St. Michael crushing the head of Satan under his foot, with his mighty sword raised). His vision, they say, is similar to the readings in the Book of Revelation:
Revelation 12:7-12
7 Then war broke out in heaven; Michael and his angels battled against the dragon. The dragon and its angels fought back,
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but they did not prevail and there was no longer any place for them in heaven.
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The huge dragon, the ancient serpent, who is called the Devil and Satan, who deceived the whole world, was thrown down to earth, and its angels were thrown down with it.
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Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: "Now have salvation and power come, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Anointed. For the accuser of our brothers is cast out, who accuses them before our God day and night.
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They conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; love for life did not deter them from death.
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Therefore, rejoice, you heavens, and you who dwell in them. But woe to you, earth and sea, for the Devil has come down to you in great fury, for he knows he has but a short time."So, we have Satan wandering the world seeking the ruin of souls, as the prayer says and we know. I'll have to look that up, Janet, about Pope Benedict saying the priestly scandal is the work of Satan trying to destroy the church. Whenever there is an attack on God's people, it is certainly not the work of God but the work of Satan, in my opinion. It is said that the attacks on the church will come more violent and more frequent the closer it is to the Second Coming, because Satan wants to destroy those who love Christ, but the Catholic church has had much worse attacks in its history. Think about the persecution of the Catholics in England beginning with Henry VIII!!! But why Leo at that time, and look at how close that was to the Fatima apparitions. I think those visions were warnings, real dangers, and a wake up call. World Wars happened.
Why did they change the prayer the first time, to make it shorter without explaning or why did they stop saying it after Vatican II? Again, it's my guess because there was no real reason given. I know back in the day, the church made decisions without really feeling the need to give explanations. Our generation of believers are a lot more educated and we are more "demanding" of explanations, so if that change happened today, I'm sure there would be this LONG explanation. But since believers were more simple, less educated, they probably wanted to shorten the prayer so that they could remember it and not have to read it. The original prayer is way too long to memorize, so they took the essence of the prayer and made it so that a factory worker or farmer could learn it and say it at any time and with the congregation at the end of Mass. (Again, my guess)
Why did they stop saying it after Vatican II? Again, I don't know, but I can guess. Many things happened after Vatican II that took a hold like wildfire and probably was not meant to happen. For instance, before Vatican II we used to abstain from eating meat on Fridays, all year, not just during Lent. Why? It was a form of penance and sacrifice, visible, concrete. What most people don't know is that the obligation to do penance/sacrifice on Friday is still there! You don't have to abstain from meat, but you are obligated to do some form of penance or sacrifice. Another example is that during Mass you bend/bow during the Nicene Creed when you say "by the power of the Holy Spirit, He was born of the Virgin Mary , and became man." How many people do that? Many many gestures are no longer done, but we are still obligated to do them. So, I think that's what happened to the St. Michael Prayer. When the priest gives the final blessing and we say "Thanks be to God", the music starts, the people file out before the priest leaves and St. Michael is forgotten. I'm hoping Benedict will reign in some of our irreverence so that we are more mindful of where we are and why we are there. I mean honestly, if people REALLY believed that Christ was up there in the tabernacle, they'd be a lot more reverent. But I digress!!
After reading about the St. Michael Prayer, I think I will pause at the end of Mass and say it if it's not said by the priest.
Sheila, I think a lot of my "studying" has to do with my Franciscan leaning. I want to know Christ, like Francis, and I get to do that by reading Scripture, because like Fr Sam taught us, the Bible is God's love letters to us. So, when I read scripture, my mind gets to thinking, then I have to look things up and that leads to other searches. Sometimes I get answers and sometimes I don't. God leaves many things to mystery and I have to accept that. So I don't want anyone here thinking I'm an authority on anything!! Please ask your pastor or Google or read scripture that I point out.
Judging evil... yes, that's God's job. We often perceive things and say "oh that's evil" but really we shouldn't say things like that about people. That's why it's so bad to say G-- D--- It, because we shouldn't damn anything or ask God to do it. A person's soul is precious to God and He wants nothing more than that soul to be His and He waits until the person takes his/her last breath before making judgment.
2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive recompense, according to what he did in the body, whether good or evil.1 Corinthians 4:5
Therefore, do not make any judgment before the appointed time, until the Lord comes, for he will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will manifest the motives of our hearts, and then everyone will receive praise from God.0 -
I Come to the Garden...
October 27th, 10:55 AM, page 37, posters name is Barb.
and now I am going to sit back and take in your post Theresa
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Yes - I read that and it's excellent.
Where is everyone today? Been awful quiet. I think I'm going to stop seeing doctors! I figured I should get all the appointments in before end of the year since I've met my deductible. Went to opthamologist because I haven't gone in couple years and think I need a new prescription for my glasses. Told me I'm borderline for glaucoma! My blood pressure is fine but I guess that doesn't have anything to do with it. Good grief.
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Such a heavy topic! Phew! We *are* saying prayers tonight??
How about something uplifting from my Quaker book?
"I expect to pass through this world but once; any good thing therefore that I can do, or any kindness that I can show to any fellow creatures, let me do it now; let me not defer or neglect it, for I shall not pass this way again." - Stephen Grellet, 1800
I've been weaning off Effexor, so I've been a bit "spicy" today, as my DD would say. :-) I figured I would have crashed by now. Skip and I are going to the tidewater this weekend, and yes, going to the church where the traditional priest says the St. Michael Prayer. I like going to him for confession too, because he not only gives a penance but says helpful things to correct weaknesses. A good confessor will do that, and you come out feeling refreshed and new.
Laura - so happy you're doing better.
I guess I better go and ride my bike some to release some of this spicy energy.
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I would like to come together for prayers. I do know Sheila's son is moving, so she may be busy. I have not seen Michelle in what feels like too long. I hope she is alright? I really like that Prayer Theresa. I would like to spend some times with our Intentions list, which is usually part of the St. Peregrine prayer. I haven't had a chance to look at all of our Prayers that you all have worked so hard to archive. Would you all like to point to which prayers would resonate with you all tonight? I am going to take a look, and am hoping we can add a short mediation that incorporates God's beautiful Earth? Mountains, Lakes, Oceans...
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Praying here for all my bc sisters! Please dear Jesus, help me to be know how to serve You and do Your will.
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Father God,
I see you in the Mountains and hear your whispers in the Trees. I could stare into your Oceans and Lakes for eternity. We are now seeing your fireworks in the changing of the leaves, and know the magic of each individual snowflake. I Thank you God that I am living within your canvas. I Pray we Honor your gifts and pledge to protect your Creation. May we strive to preserve this Earth for our children, all of your gorgeous creatures and not squander the Mysteries of Nature.
Amen.
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I'll be back for prayers - something simple is fine with me. It's just nice to pray together.
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Sounds good! I agree.
So how about St. Peregrine Prayer with our Intentions, followed by 5-10 minutes of talking prayer ( I usually just chat, and allow myself to mourn loved ones, talk about the cancer, and the good stuff too! sort of a stream of consciousness, I also wrote a prayer for God's Nature if it resonates, then ending with Our Father, Hail Mary and Glory Be (in any order.)
We can aim for 10:05 start time?
Please add or change anything you would like!!!
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That's a very nice prayer, Traci. :-) I can post a nice little hymn at 10:00 to start things off... it goes with the nature theme.
Yeah, I wonder about Michelle too. I hope she's just busy with her new project and those active boys!
I wonder if Paula will join us.
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I meant to say Hi Ellen
and hopefully we will see Betty, Paula, Pat, Tori, Prayers, Sheila, Laura, Apple, tonight or this weekend. And I know I will have forgotten someone, and I hope I will be forgiven. I don't mean to...0 -
Hello sisters,
I have gotten a book : The Private Prayers of Pope John Paul II
I'd like to find something and type it up here so we can pray with, is that a good idea?
Xoxo
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Wonderful, Go for it! (nice to see you!!!)
and our Dear Jeannine, we pray for you Sister.
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Prayer: Let us see the signs of your presence
O God, our Father, we praise you and thank you.
You who love every man and guide all peoples, accompany the steps our our nation,
Which are often difficult but are full of hope.
Let us see the signs of your presence and feel the force of your love that never fails.
Lore Jesus, Son of God and Savior of the world,
made man in the womb of the Virgin Mary, we confess to you our faith.
May your Gospel be light and strength for our personal choices and those of society.
May your law of love lead our civil community to justice and solidarity,
To reconciliation and peace.Holy Spirit, love of the Father and of the Son,
confidently we invoke you.
You who are the inner teacher reveal to us the thoughts and ways of God.
Grant that we may look at human events with pure and penetrating eyes,
that we may preserve the just inheritance of sanctity and civility of our people,
that we may turn our hearts and minds to the renewal of our society.
Glory to you, O Son, who for love became our servant.
Glory to you, O Holy Spirit, who live and reign to the end of time. Amen!
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Hi sisters,
Traci/Theresa ~ I'm here. What prayers do you want to start first?
Can you list it out?
thanks
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I'm here!
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I'm here, what do we say first?
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Here is the Hymn... then we can follow with prayer...
We plough the fields, and scatter
the good seed on the land,
but it is fed and watered
by God's almighty hand;
he sends the snow in winter,
the warmth to swell the grain,
the breezes and the sunshine
and soft refreshing rain.Refrain:
All good gifts around us
Are sent from heaven above
then thank the Lord, O thank the Lord
for all his love.He only is the maker
of all things near and far;
he paints the wayside flower,
he lights the evening star;
the winds and waves obey him,
by him the birds are fed;
much more to us, his children,
he gives our daily bread.
Refrain
We thank thee then, O Father,
for all things bright and good,
the seed-time and the harvest,
our life, our health, our food.
Accept the gifts we offer
for all thy love imparts,
and what thou most desirest,
our humble, thankful hearts.
Refrain0 -
I'm here
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Traci ~ tell us when to start
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