How to forgive family/friends who disappeared during cancer....
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I showed EVERYONE at work today pics of my new car. DH wasn't even mad at me when he came in late from travel and I told him about my car. That will teach him to leave his phone off/uncharged.
I am reconnecting with my friend-havn't gotten together yet-we have opposite schedules. But it does feel good to be friends again. I'm even going to forgive the kid that stole my drugs last winter and tried to kill himself. Will forgive, not forgetting. drugs locked up now.
Okay Now I'm outta here
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I dont think anyone has been ganging up on Linda. Actually, I thought people have been relatively calm and cool considering the preaching. Subtle and not so subtle hints dont seem to work with Linda. Linda is clearly coming from a good place of trying to help but her approach and message is probably appropriate for <1% of the population. The other 99% just dont think that way. Im one of them! I dont need anyone telling me over and over again that my anger and/or annoyance with selfish people who didnt support me during my time of need actually need my support and that i will be better for it. I dont indulge selfish people. My approach in handling my situation is no better or worse than how Linda chooses to handle hers. That being said, Linda doesnt feel that way. Linda seems to want us all to adopt HER way. No thanks.
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So Im "exasperated" now?
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What a shame this was a great thread but I don't want to be judged or analysed on a board. What a difference from just 2 days ago, it was filled with love, understanding and support.
Fran- great new wheels!! Enjoy!
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It is what it is. It ain't about power. I can't control what other people do, but I can control whether I expose myself to that person. My life is too precious to let other people treat me like shit. Someone stomps on my foot several times, for whatever reason, I yell, then I move away and hang out with the people I like. Simple and easy.
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I came back to this thread because I am still grappling with the "what next" in my dealings with folks who walked away. My parents were here for a visit, and we got into a heated discussion on my feelings about my cousins, aunt and uncle. They not only weren't here for me, they visited my city and didn't call. Once they emailed, and it was a week of broken dates.
I'm not angry, but I sure will be if I have to see them again. I told my parents that I just couldn't see trying to pretend it was okay, for what? So they can feel better? What makes me feel better is to avoid.
Is that wrong? I feel like I'm hurting my parents.
I can really see what Day had to say, it was super-articulate.
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There is no such thing as 'wrong' -- only what will make you feel better.
It may disturb your parents if you avoid your aunt/uncle/cousins... but it sounds like it would disturb you more to have contact with them... so that could be what helps you make your choice.
If you were close to these relatives before (or if you will miss having them in your life) -- you could always just shoot them an email say something like "Hey -- I was disappointed that we couldn't get together when you were in town... next time, let's try to arrange things to make it happen." and then just let it go. Ball in their court. Out of your mind... no one feeling guilt or blame.
Is there some urgent need to make a permanent decision about cutting them off? They might even surprise you by returning your email and saying something about how they had less time than they had hoped, or their car broke down... or who knows... someone got sick and felt like crap and therefore visiting you that trip seemed like a bad idea... (?)
Anyway -- there is no right or wrong. Only what makes you feel the best. Probably the more important thing to do would be to have a better conversation with your parents. Sounds like that got left in a less-than-comfortable way... and my guess is that your parents are way more important to you than the cousins.
Best of luck,
Linda
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I think that is a good point about it not being "urgent". My shrink and I talked about this and I think what it comes down to is let some time pass. Things change in time. I have been feeling that I had to discuss things openly and honestly. My son said no. So it feels really disrespectful and phony and bad. But at least according to the shrink, i should sit on it, hold back and wait. If he brings it up at any time then I have my opening. The door is cracked open, I don't want to give him a reason to slam it shut. It would be different if the grandchildren weren't involved.
Ltothe, I totally get how you feel. I have been estranged from a couple of cousins for years and I really don't miss them. On the contrary, it's a relief. I think Linda is right in that the difficulty is really with your parents. But I think parents of grown kids really have to take a step back and let the "kids" do whatever they need to do. You know, you were the one who was hurt. It doesn't seem fair to me to put the burden on you, you have enough of a burden already! Honestly, at this point, I think we're entitle to be a little bit self indulgent, a little self protective. I've been warned about the danger of stress with this disease. You have to take care of yourself, no one else will.
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Wow, you guys are AMAZING. Thank you both for your thoughts! I really, really appreciate it.
My parents deserve some peace and harmony in their later years. I would like to give this to them and truthfully, if Christmas is better if I play nice, I can do that for them. As far as whether the cousins are worth it: I have given them all the benefit of the doubt. The cousin who contacted me via email is the same one who was posting on FB what a great time she had in my city while I was sitting in the chemo chair. The other wrote "hope you feel better!" on my FB wall in the middle of treatment. I mean, who needs this sad excuse for caring.
I have to decide if it is going to bring up too many issues to see them again after so much time has passed. I did "big girl pants" it and write Christmas cards. No reply (actually, gifts went to my mother, father and brother who they saw over the holiday, not us).
I guess the truth is, it's hard to come to terms with not being as important as we'd like to some people. I'm getting better with that in time, but I'm still struggling with the line between self-protection and being open and living without expectations.
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I have been thinking about the subject since I posted yesterday. My new thoughts are: during this treatment hell - at least thats how it feels to me - ive not had energy to be there as much as i wanted for either my kids, husband, family or friends. Ive only thought of people who were not there as unfriendly and unkind. To some it may be very hard to reach out for whatever reason - fear of saying something the wrong way, fear of losing us, fear of dealing with a subject that hurts. Ive not paid attention to the fact that some may be dealing with problems of their own ("because my problem is the only REAL problem").
Yesterday I talked with my husband about this. He has been very supportive, but sometimes in an "assistant" kind of way. Every practical thing is taken care of. However Ive felt so alone. Ive not felt his pain and although I know he's there for me - I had started to tell myself he doesn't love me... He said that couldn't be further from the truth. HE CRIED! Not that I love to see him in pain - well actually yes I do at this moment, because it was so reassuring. He explained how hard it was for him too. Something i've never thought of before. It's as if he has put on brave face and given more than he almost can. To the point where it's starting to wear him down.
Today I feel sorry for him. It's tremendously hard for both of us, not just me. He should have said something sooner but now that I know it's really a relief. Ive not lost him... And for the first time in 7 months I feel like Im not the only one who is weak. I really have a hard time being the "patient" or the "victim". I become stronger when I feel stronger.
I want to surprice him today - just don't know how yet.0 -
Can we please get back to being a sharing space ? part of my reason for being here is because I struggle with feeling like I have done this whole cancer thing wrong emotionally even though I did best I could and I am left with PTSD (diagnosed) so coming to a thread where there is loads of preaching about the "best" way to do it and heal etc just dispirits me - we all have our own ways and I don't experience any genuine respect for our own journeys from you Linda only a desire to help us to your route which worked for you and that is great but I need support and acceptance not a philosophical debate or nagging.
I feel sad at all the upset on this thread now0 -
Lily, you are right. The reason we are here is because we are not heard by the people in our lives! That is why we are HERE! So we have to listen. Being heard, sharing our pain eases it. It's really the best way we can help each other.
Acceptance, compassion, sympathy are worth a lot and it's the very thing that is missing in our lives.
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There are as many ways to deal with the pain, grief, and anger of abandonment as there are individuals. I don't think anyone intends to say "do this". I think anyone who comes here spending their time to help others has an honest desire to make change for all of us.
PTSD is a very real issue with BC treatment, and it isn't talked about enough. I have it, to such an extent that we called the ambulance one night. My triggers are mostly diagnostic procedures, but absolutely, so could the people who abandon us! They remind us that we can be left alone, that we might die alone, that we never can be sure of anything. These are the most fundamental fears of humanity. There could never be a simple way to address them.
Let's try to remind each other that we are here to help, not to harm or judge. This has been the nicest group of people I've ever been with in my time of need, and I'm so grateful. That goes for you, too, Linda!
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Lily -- in my view of the world -- there is no 'wrong'... I believe that every single human does the very best that they can in every single moment... given those exact circumstances and every past memory/choice they have made and their understanding of the world. Every single person, in every single moment -- we do the best that we can.
I am very sorry if anything I wrote made you feel judged in any way. I honestly only want to support people in feeling the very best that they can and to experience joy in their lives. I know that my 'tough-love' approach can be a little shocking to some people... but please feel the love in it. I am a solution-oriented person, searching for practical solutions to discomfort and pain.
The deal is (the way I see it) that if people are hurting doing something one particular way -- then change is necessary to stop hurting. Sometimes change is difficult -- but what a release when the hurting stops.
Therefore I encourage the change in thought that will allow the change in action and result... based on what has actually worked for me... and a lot of other people I know.If you would like to speak more personally to me -- I would welcome your PM, and promise to speak 'softly'.
I know you from other threads, Lily -- and this is the first time (that I know of) that I have upset you. Really sorry for that. You know Sas -- she has actually asks me occasionally to reach out to people who she thinks are hurting... because she sees my true heart, and has found my ideas to be supportive... Please try to read my words without looking for 'preaching' or 'judgment' -- and maybe they will be less grating. Once we decide someone is irritating, it can be hard to step out of that judgment. One thing about these boards is we have no idea who is reading. Anything we write can be misunderstood or judged in ways that we didn't intend... but sometimes what we say can actually help others, too. Several women/lurkers have PM'd me to tell me that my ideas ressonated for them... and have helped them move forward from hurt into relief. That makes me feel really wonderful.
Lilly -- please accept my olive branch -- and please -- if my posts continue to upset you -- please Just don't read them. I have no intention to hurt anyone.
I think everything happens for a reason -- including each of us being drawn together in this particular conversation. I will try to learn from the criticism here and be more gentle. I will also keep posting, and sharing my thoughts... because I have had (in the last 3-4 months of posting) many many communications from women who say my ideas have helped them. One beautiful woman who is stage IV said that my words (from another thread) "flowed over her like a warm bath".
If what we write here can bring that sort of peace to someone -- then we need to keep writing, don't we?
Someone up above said that my "approach and message is probably appropriate for <1% of the population". Maybe so. But imagine how lonely that 1% is -- and how badly those women may need to hear a friendly voice who speaks their language. Personally, I think that those who are willing to suspend negative judgments of ideas-different-than-their-own are much more likely to connect with or find what I write at least an 'interesting' outside-the-box approach that they can consider or discard as suits them.
Maybe an open discussion board is considered by some an 'inappropriate' place for serious discussion -- and those people feel that we 'should' stick to chattier/lighter conversation. Guess I am not very good at those... but there are lots of those sorts of threads here. I came to THIS thread because the title IS serious... and I feel I have something to offer... because I have had amazing success repairing my old 'previously wounded' relationships. In this instance, maybe my 'odd-ball' ideas are just the thing to do the trick... at least for some.
LtotheK -- How wonderful that your conversation with your husband brought you closer! It is so natural for us (anyone in crisis) to begin to see ourselves as the center of everything -- and forget how those closest to us are ALSO grieving our loss-of-'perfect'-health. For lots of us (women especially) this may be one of the first times in our adult lives that we have ever allowed ourselves to think of ourselves 'first'. Many of us have always taken care of everyone else and put our own hopes/dreams/needs last -- until now. There is absolutely nothing 'wrong' with our shift-- in fact our health depends on us taking the best care of ourselves possible, and letting extraneous chores/worries be handled by someone else for now! But it is easy to see that our change of attitude could be kind of a shock to the loved ones we used to be the care-takers for. They saw us as 'strong' and 'someone they could count on' -- and now, our fraility shows, and our attention is on our own health. For those out there reading "judgment" in that -- I don't believe that any of this is 'bad' -- it is just a change... and seeing/accepting that change -- actually discussing it with your husband the way you did -- is an opening to having a better/closer/more-honest/realistic relationship.
For Valentines I asked Les if he would like to play a 'love-game' with me... I offered to tell him 5 things that made me fall in love with him -- if he would tell me 5, too. It was SO easy for me to think of 5 -- in fact, I probably told him 10 at least. Then it was his turn. Les doesn't talk a lot. He is an outdoorsman who spends his days surrounded by wildlife. There was a long pause, and the first thing he said was, "I don't know if I can identify 5 specific things... because I see and love you as a whole. But I can tell you the first time I knew how MUCH I loved you, and that are 'the one for me'... it was in Miller's office, when he told us after your mastectomy that he had gotten every bit of the cancer out of you. I almost burst into tears in front of the doctor."
So -- now I am teary-eyed writing this. I had no idea how worried he must have been. He is such a rock for me... a patient and capable 'nurse'... a wonderful 'driver'... and of course a great friend/lover -- and I have known for more than a year that he was 'the one' for me. But hearing his fear and his relief -- and that that was the moment he 'knew' exactly how strongly he felt for me... was really powerful. I didn't think I could love him more, but I keep getting surprised by being able to!
To anyone who thinks this was in some way 'preachy' -- I guess I don't know how to be otherwise. Please get whatever positive that you can from it and discard the rest. We all are here to deal with our breast cancer and what it brings us. Me included.
Please have a heart and focus your attention elsewhere if you find reading my stuff painful.
Linda
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Well, this is the first time I read this post as I write a breast cancer blog and I get MANY inquiries from all kinds of cancer patients, not just breast, who are abandoned by family and friends during treatment. Forgiveness is a process.
The best article I found to help explain why people do this, was in the New York Times that people are terrified to be around your trauma. They are afraid they will have trauma in their own lives so they run for the hills. And the people who run usually have always ran from difficult things.
Here's the article I wrote about it, but trust me, I am still dealing with some anger issues on my own with friends who ran. Oh shoot, it won't let me paste the link. Go to my Blog at http://denise4health.wordpress.com and search on When Friends Disappear.
check out my BC blog http://denise4health.wordpress.com/
Dx 10/10/2011, IDC, 6cm+, Stage IIIa, Grade 2, 9/14 nodes, ER+/PR+, HER2+Surgery 11/23/2011 Mastectomy (Left); Lymph Node Removal: Axillary Lymph Node Dissection (Left)Chemotherapy 12/27/2011 Adriamycin, Cytoxan, TaxolTargeted Therapy 02/28/2012 HerceptinRadiation Therapy 06/06/2012 External0 -
THank you Denise - its a great blog.......
Linda - thank you, I am nnot having a good day today and feel really rough so am not going to say more except that it did not come across before that you believe we all do our best at any moment, and I feel disappointed in myself that I have been so distressed by my BC journey so far and how horrible and messy my own feelings have been apart ferom any relationships with anyone, i am disappointed in my relationship with myself and in tears as I write this
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Lily, try as best you can not to be so hard on yourself. My friends sometimes tell me to stop being so harsh, stop having expectations, "let it go". I try to listen. But honey, only we know what it's like to be in this situation. It is not fair, it is scary as heck, and that is why we try to help each other out. I often think how hard it's going to be for all these "traumaphobes" when they get sick (and yes, it's WHEN, not IF, my dear lost friends) per the last post! Man, you need a will of iron to get through what we've done. Own it.
I feel like an idiot dwelling on lost friends and family, and wish I had managed a lot of things differently (like not even telling a lot of people). Hindsight is 20/20. You do not live in the past, it's easy to say, but it's true. It doesn't exist.
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OMG, gang, I'm calling in an abandonment 911! I can't believe it: I came home to a phone message from a very close friend who stopped being in touch while I was doing my treatment. I haven't heard from her in more than 2 years. The message said, "Surprise, it's 'x friend', call me back."
I have no idea what to do. Call back and chit chat? Forget she called? I'm leaning on calling her and facing this down so I can let it go, but what a pit in the stomach!!
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Linda,
Let me tell you what happens when you try to "change" someone. There are several outcomes. All not very pleasant for the one who is trying to change people.
For one, why would people change for you? If they didn't care about you when you had cancer, what makes you think they will really change because... what? You are going to beg them? shower them with gifts? Play the guilt trip on them? Try and discuss the philosophy of relationships with them?
Most of the time people disappear from your life NOT because they don't know how to react. They disappear because they are self-centered, don't really care much about others, do not want to be stuck and waste their time with someone they don't really care about. If you REALLY think you are going to change that kind of person, your are delusional. People like this make the abuser in an abusive relationship -not talking about physical abuse here. They are takers, not givers. You might actually even find yourself in a distorted version of an abusive relationship.
Or they might have already too much on their plate and they can't afford emotionally to respond to you. Do not try to measure how others respond to stressful situations, because we are all different. For example, probably the amount of stress that would throw you out of whack, for me would be something I wouldn't even notice. For other people it might be different. Dealing with a difficult marriage might be more than they can deal with and they are emotionally incapable to take even more on their plate in dealing with you. What are you going to do to those people? Give them the guilt trip? Like they don't have enough to worry about? Remember, you usually know about people what they tell you and what they show you. Our private lives are just that, private and you don't know what happens really in a person's life.
The way you chose to deal with this situation is just that: your own way. It doesn't mean that others have to do the same. It doesn't even mean that others are interested in your reasoning why you want to act that way.
I am sorry, but sometimes you remind me of an episode of the Golden Girls - when Rose was very upset that a guy at work didn't like her- her, who was liked by everybody - so she was practically harassing the poor guy, bringing him St. Olaf cakes, when his dog died she brought him a cat that killed his parakeet, etc. In the end, the guy asked her "friends do whatever their friends ask them to, right? Ok, from this moment I am your friend; and as a friend I ask you to leave me alone"
Think on it if you can.
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If you read what I wrote... I said that most 'hurt' people want their loved ones to change... and that isn't going to happen.
I said the only person you can change is yourself.
And I haven't guilt tripped anyone about anything... totally off the target there.
These are open boards.
Those who take it upon themselves to tell others what to say and when to shut up... well, it reminds me of snooty fourth grade girls ganging up on someone because she is different. One 'popular' girl starts with the snarky put downs... and the other wanna be's jump in. Attacking new or 'odd' ideas can be a great way to 'make friends' with other close-minded people.
I'm different. Fine.
But I am just about the lone voice here attempting to answer the quesrion in a positive way.
Day, you say to cut people out of your life. Fine, but that does not help people who want to continue the relationship. So how do they move on and stop hurting?
I offer practical suggestions that have worked for me... and somehow I am off-base and 'too'.... what? Too hopeful? Too positive? Too 'helpful'?
I have no desire to change anyone. Or judge anyone.
And I sure don't come here to BE judged. If you don't like what someone posts... just don't read it.
it is truly amazing how when people decide to be offended... how easily they can collect 'evidence' to 'prove' whatever supports their own agenda.
Open boards. Many many threads. No need to judge anyone. There is room here for all sorts of ideas. All sorts of conversations.
Certainly no need to make personal attacks or tell people they are ridiculous. It makes you (to me) look like a bully, and I wonder how many women more fragile than I am have been chastised and berated in this fashion... and at what price.
I am sorry for the complications you have suffered with your treatment. Therefore when you last told me on another thread that you thought I was so much less than you... I backed off. But really... enough is enough. These boards are open to all women with bc... and whether you like what I say or not ... I have every right to be here and say what is important to me... and what at least quite a few women have told me helped them.0 -
Hi All:
When I got sick I ended up separating everyone into three categories:
1) The ones who swoop in like vultures and want to take charge even if they haven't been there for you for years because they want to be a part of the drama and/or to have the inside scoop so they can get loads of sympathy from others for all they have done for you. They tend to send flowers and call a lot at first;
2) The ones who head for the tall timber because they don't know what to say or do and/or don't want to offer to help because they don't want to actually do anything even if you have helped them for years; and
3) The genuine people who treat you like the person they have always known, and don't have a problem if you ask for a bit of their time when you actually need it. They are the Keepers who will sit with you during chemotherapy on their day off or take your trash bins in or out. They'll ask how you are.
I got very angry with the people in Categories 1 and 2. The Ones were Drama Queens looking for sympathy themselves, and the Twos were a bad investment if they could not step up to the plate for a minute after asking for help for years. Category 3 people are Keepers for a Lifetime. They were there. Checked in regularly. Talked about what was going on, how it felt. If the trash bins were covered this week. If I needed a hand with anything. They are still around years later. As I am for them.
What is surprising is what Category particular people fall into. It may be family that surprise you the most. I don't think it has as much to do with the length of the relationship as the character of the person.
My advice to all of you is to find your Catagory 3 people and treasure them always.
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LtotheK... if she was a close friend who brought something worthwhile into your life... why not call and see what she has to say? You have nothing to lose... and you might be surprised by her explanation of what happened... at least the mystery would be solved.
But the main thing is ypur own peace of mind. If it feels too stressful, then don't press yourself too much.
At this point in our lives our own health has to be our first priority.
You will figure it out... and do what is best for you. (Me... I would be quite curious what she has to say
'Night all
Linda0 -
"why would people change for you? If they didn't care about you when you had cancer, what makes you think they will really change because... what? You are going to beg them? shower them with gifts? Play the guilt trip on them? Try and discuss the philosophy of relationships with them?"
And unfortunately, let's not forget one of the unpleasant realities of a situation like this...they "change" and are around again sometimes because you're no longer sick. You don't look sick, you are not going to chemo every week or so, you're not housebound etc. They're fair weather friends, it's not that they've "changed" necessarily.
@LtotheK, I wonder sometimes why we give old friends so much more leeway than we'd give an old boyfriend/girlfriend. If they ditched us and we didn't hear from them for years and then suddenly popped up, well I wouldn't be scrambling for the phone. If I were considering talking to them, they wouldn't be getting off that easily. Not game playing, just i'm sorry, you don't get off that easily.
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Yes one of the things many people said to me was I looked great............the fact I was cringing inside at being out in the world in my mutilated state and feeling like a freak at that stage meant nothing as it was not visible. I could not expect them to understand adn I think there is a myth that people with cancer all look ill when many don´t - even those sitting waiting for rads after chemo did not look sick yet I knew they were............
I chose not to tell many people and it has its drawbacks but it did what I wanted it to do which was keep some areas of my life free from people asking "how are you" in that special way reserved for cancer patients! I think it has helped me continue denial of how sick I am and that I have cancer too though as I still get winded at times when I remember........
This is such a confusing path for us and I think must be for those who care for us but of course that does not help`us when we feel so isolated and different to the non cancer world.....
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Day, you are awesome. Thank you so much! Your vase analogy was so important to me.
I actually am not sure what I'm going to do, but I am my mother's child and have spent too much time already at my own expense worrying about what everyone would think. I am giving myself time to focus on me right now, and I'll think about it when I have time. Which isn't for at least two weeks: I am in the middle of graduate admissions and then a colleague is staying with me.
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Not only was she a close friend, she is/was my godmother. Day's analogy of the vase really resonated with me. On the other hand, I want to keep it in a nice tone, and calling may actually help me release her. She haunts me every day. Whatever it takes to come to terms with that is what's best.
I'm my mother's child, I'm a giver. You all are givers, and I thank you all so much for helping me through this difficult night. It brought up a lot for me, including flashbacks of my treatment and tears.
xoxo
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yellowdoglady - so true.
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YDL - an excellent summary, thank you - it is not always about us, more often it is about THEM and their stuff and maybe we just need to remind ourselves of that and our right to choose who we keep in our lives now
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Well, as long as we're venting... ;-)
I really expected nothing from anyone and got much more than I expected (except for my son). But has anyone had the experience of 'advice" from people who know nothing? I actually had to separate myself for a time from certain well meaning but dumb people who told me what to do. Don't take chemo, for example. All's good now, I just didn't want anyone influencing my decision a the time, a decision that was life or death for me.
Well, the other day i went out to coffee with some friends. This one woman, a therapist, noticed that I was in some pain. I explained to her that i was on aromasin and pain was one of the side effects. She wanted to "help" me so she advised me to go off of it!!!!! I kid you not. She really thought she was helping, must be a hold over from being a therapist. She lectured me about how "quality of life" was important too, that the odds were that the cancer would not return, yada yada yada. I took it in the way she meant it, to help. but later it hit me how ridiculous she was.
One of my friends is a nurse and she answered her "she would like to be around for a while and this was prescribed to her." Another friend said "didn't you go to Sloan?" So I recited all of the drs I'd seen, the books I'd read, etc. I said "I'm a bit of an expert on this at this point." So the therapist shut up. When I saw her again, a week later, she apologized, in a way. She said "I hope you know I will respect whatever decision you make." It was such an odd moment. I barely know this person.
I guess what I'm saying is that, yes, it's definitely about "them" not us. It's just hard to see that when you truly love someone and they are not there when you need them most. It also makes me want to stop seeing my shrink!
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