How to forgive family/friends who disappeared during cancer....
Comments
-
Bobo - you just won the Oscar!!!
Linda Ranching - yes there is evidence to support everything you say BUT what do those of us who are on Als to do? I have tried anti deps, valium, take loads of natural stuff, try to help myself (but sometimes fall off the wagon) and generally DO feel empowered, I would not have refused chemo despite strong pressure to accept it if not BUT you speak as though the others in your life were also all up for healing relationships whereas it seems some of us here have NO relationship or contact with family members we miss and wish were closer.......no man is an island and all that, surely it takes two to tango?
In my case accepting how it is means accepting nothing and that is what I do.....I did not have a specific or limiting agenda, I just wanted to feel cared for and to know that people cared about me and the fact I am dealing with cancer, its really not a big ask to want a few minutes phone call after a hosp visit......or even once in a while, instead of nothing?
Of course we can change a lot of things ourselves but surely we do still need to do the foundations - grieve old life, grieve for parts we are now missing, grieve for body image and disfigurement etc too?
0 -
*banging head on desk*
0 -
Im gonna plead the 5th on this one.
0 -
ROFL Mardibra!
0 -
mardibra, bobogirl, granny -- why make fun of other people's conversation? What positive input is there in "banging head on desk" or "pleading the fifth"? Truly -- I don't get it. If my conversation is irritating -- it may be because there is something in it that you don't want to hear. Maybe something else. If you can explain what you want from me -- please do. I am being as honest as I can... and I believe everything I have written. If it is amusing to you that I have found my own path to happiness and non-painful relationships with family and friends.. or somehow silly/irritating that I think this might be worth sharing to those who are feeling pain -- then Okey doke -- get your grins where you can.
Lily --
The others in my life were not all open to healing the relationships.
My ex (of 20 years) would not answer my first call. So, I left him a very brief phone message, and then I wrote him an email -- telling him that I was sorry for the things I may have done that hurt him. I told him that I can see (in retrospect) that given who we were at that time, given the limitations of my understanding back then -- I can now see that I was extremely judgmental of him, and that I criticized him both to his face, and to others.
That I have come to look at the larger picture, and very much value some of the things we shared. That I am sure that many of the things we accomplished together I would never have been brave enough to attempt alone. I praised his fearlessness, and his determination to make our business a success. I praised his creativity. I told him that I now see that even his leaving me was an extreme act of bravery on his part, and that it was (considering how unhappy we both were at the time) perhaps the best -- and maybe even the only thing to do. I told him that I hold no grudges, and hope he can forgive me for the petty details of our hurting-of-each-other back then. That (back then) I blamed 'his' drinking for nearly everything I judged 'wrong' in our lives, and that now I realize that I played a much-more-active role in creating our problems that I had once thought... but given the understanding of life I had back then... I was (just as he was) simply doing the best I could with the tools that I had (back then).
My OLD story -- was that he was an alcoholic whose disease progressed until he was outrageously inappropriate both in our business and in our personal life. That he "drove away our customers' "drank and smoked away all our profits' and then 'left me' to have an affair with an old girlfriend. That he stole money from my half of the business. That he promised he would love me forever, and didn't keep that promise. That he had attempted to ruin my reputation with our business associates. And the list went on and on and on.
My guess is that his list of MY faults was just as long... or even longer.
But by admitting my own fault, and then telling him why I had loved him, and what I had appreciated about him... and STILL admire about who he was back then -- I opened the door for him to eventually show up as that new person I created him to be -- the one who was valuable -- not the one who was rotten-to-the-core.
A year after I sent him the email (with no more contact between us, and my never knowing if he had even read the email) my father died. I included my ex on a bulk email to family and old friends, telling of my last days with Dad, and when/where the funeral would be.
My ex responded with a concillatory email... which lead to more sporadic email contact, each one more healing. We still have never spoken on the phone or met in person... he is not interested in that -- at least so far. I would welcome it, and have told him so.
My 'story' now is that we were sent into each other's lives to learn certain lessons about self-worth, and 'establishing healthy boundaries' and 'not being co-dependent'.
I used to tell it as a tragic story of my 20 years of living with a "verbally-abusive alcoholic". And because I told it that way -- it became my life... my history. I was trapped in that. Telling it that way -- there was absolutely no space for my ex to show up any other way than abusive and alcoholic. My mind was closed to all the good things he brought into my life, and the strength I gained through that relationship.
Do I want to be 'back with him'? No. But I no longer despise him or think he intentionally hurt me. I think we both did the best that we could at that time -- considering our understanding of the world back then. For me -- it is now (finally) resolved. I no longer list (to myself and to others) the 'wrongs' or the 'hurts'. I only mention them here in this conversation as the example of how I used to feel about my experience of 20 years of my life... and how it trapped me to live out that complaint. In continuing to persist in that disappointment "He left me" "He was abusive" "He was a drunkard" -- I gave HIM all the power over my expereince of life... even long after he was no longer physically in my world.
It was once I began to own my own participation -- my own choices -- that my healing began.
What about MY choice to stay with him? What was my own responsibility to my happiness -- and even to his? Obviously we both were (at the end) miserable. But clinging to the relationship was what I 'knew' back then. It was a lesson I had to learn. Now I can see him as "brave" to leave me. I can see that I held on way too long to something that wasn't working. I don't blame myself and I don't blame him. We both were just doing the best we could at the time.
And, Yes. There are absolutely times we grieve. It is a part of our process. But I grieved that lost marriage for nearly 10 years... while continuing to say (to myself and anyone else who would listen) that I had been a victim of his alcoholism and abuse. But the reality is that I CHOSE HIM. He was drinking on the very first night we met. And still I chose him. And I could have chosen to leave him at any point in that 20 years... yet I didn't. I chose to stay with him -- cling to him -- 'build my life' on that faulty foundation. It isn't 'his fault' that it was a house of cards. It wasn't my 'fault' either.
I learned some incredibly valuable lessons... and because I learned them -- I no longer have similar obstacles in my life anymore... although ... for as long as I told those stories that vilified him -- guess what sort of man kept showing up in my life? The sort of man who would 'prove' my view of the world of relationships. More heavy drinkers. More 'wounded/misunderstood' bad boys -- instead of men of integrity.
It wasn't until I could see my own part in things... and how my own choices led me to my unhappiness... that my ex (and every other person in my life) has the right to 'be' absolutely any way he/they choose to... that I only have the power (and responsibilty) to change myself... and make different choices... that great men started showing up in my life. Holding onto my old complaints kept me mired in an old (negative) way of thinking that kept me in 'misery'. And the more I told the story of how bad it was, the more 'victim' became my way of being. The more I lamented that I didn't understand 'how he could have done the things he did' -- left me confused in MANY parts of my life. I felt powerless. I had given HIM the power over my happiness.
The lesson I learned -- through 20 years of trying and 10 more years of grieving -- is that "when a relationship isn't working to both our satisfaction -- I now know that I am strong enough to move on." I don't need all the drama of continuing (and continuing and continuing) to attempt to shove that round peg into the square hole. I have the power (and responsibility) to choose to live my life in happiness.
When my father died -- he was the closest person to me on earth. I loved him SO much. And yet -- I don't grieve him... because he is still very much with me. I see/feel him in every beautiful sunset and the starry night sky. I still 'talk' to him in my thoughts. He still is here with me.
And, at least so far, this is also my experience of breast cancer. I counted my blessings when I had the lumpectomy that it wasn't as painful or as disfiguring as I had feared. I counted my blessings when they told me that the lumpectomy pathology said that I needed BMX -- I stayed in gratitude that 'that at least we knew" and that 'the surgery was the right thing to do'. I counted my blessings that I am now in a great relationship with a wonderful man who is willing to help me through this -- (and BTW -- we were not 'all-that-serious' when I was dx'd -- it was the bc that allowed him to step up to the plate and show me the sort of truly wonderful man that he is. I continue to count my blessings that my axillary cording seems to be improving... that I don't have full-blown lymph-edema... that I was eligible for immediate recon.
Do I physcially look/feel the way I did just only one year ago?
Nope. But it is OK. I am here, and happy, and as healthy as I can possibly be in this moment. I don't know what bc may still have in store... but I don't live in fear, and I know that whatever comes, I will find the beauty and increase my humanity through it.
My happiness is within me.
And that is REALLY powerful.
Linda
0 -
Initially I felt linda's posts to be informative and I was really happy for her to be happy with her life.
But linda- After reading your posts on this thread to date, it seems like you are almost trying to hammer a square peg in a round hole.
Its good you have moved on, but not all of us are ready to be nice, forgiving, forgetting or ready to see all the beauty you do.
We HURT for many reasons.
Your persistence on suggesting that we should just turn the other cheek and give it all up and smile implies we're living the cancer experience "wrong."
An older relative once said, opinions are like rectums, everybody has one. Let each of us have our own rectum!!!
You have shared your view but not everyone has to have the same opinion as you. Hence the banging head, pleading the fifth replies. We are all grown ups here and can choose to feel any way we want- happy, sad, angry, joyous, grateful.... And not one of those things is wrong to feel.
We are all different people coping with different diagnosis, different family, different friends, different jobs.
Glad you're happy, some of us are working on getting there. Could you give us a break as we work on it? Many thanks.
0 -
Linda, I dont really get the impression that some people here are talking about repairing relationships that went south before the cancer diagnosis. In some cases, they're talking about relationships like the one you describe with your father, and then having that father turn around and disappear after diagnosis. And I don't mean to be hurtful towards you by saying that. But that is what some people are dealing with.
0 -
I have dealt with both, relationships that were already going south and relationships that seemed to be strong. Both family and friends.
What did I do? I completely removed them from my life. I told them "this was your chance to prove how much I mean to you. You failed it. If I don't mean anything to you, then you don't mean anything to me. Good-bye."
It was my choice. In this, I had a choice. I have to confess I wasn't too forgiving before either, but especially after this journey started, I became totally unforgiving. Why would I accept and try to build trust when it was already shattered? Why would I want in my life people that I despise for what they did?
I didn't speak to my sister in almost 2 years. When my Mother tries to tell me how she's doing, I interrupt her and tell her I am not interested. After the incident with my sister, my Mother tried to defend her, and I scratched my Mother too from the list for 6 months, until she called and apologized, crying. I did not hide from her - actually I told her very bluntly - that our relationship will never be the way it was, ever, and I am keeping contact with her just because she is my mother and she is old and needs financial help from time to time, and it wouldn't be fair for me not to help her. She said "you are breaking my heart". I answered "you should have thought about this when you broke mine."
No matter if you try and put together shards of a broken vase, you will see the cracks on it for the rest of your life. You might decide to throw it in the trash, or you might decide to still keep it in the house - but when you decide to keep it, it will be hidden in an unobtrusive spot, and you will never have joy from looking at it.
I decided to throw away all broken vases except one. And that one is behind a door, I take it out once a week, dust it and put it back.
0 -
Chemical, you hit the nail on the head. I think it's great that Linda has taken responsibility for her part in the failure of her marriage. It sounds as though she's been through a lot and has found a way of dealing with it which is great. But not every situation is the same. I too am glad to be alive and i could not care less that I had a mastectomy. There are many things that DON"T bother me! But if I had a toothache right now, I could not think it away. And having a son who is a heartache is the same way. Believe me, I have tried and tried and this saturday i will make him a birthday and pretend that things are ok. But that's NOT the same as having things really be ok. But that's life. In your way, you make sense Linda. We have to play with the hand we're dealt. What choice is there? But I really think you don't understand how you sound. How condescending and superior.
People find solace in lots of ways. Religions, even ones as goofy as Scientology, can, if believed in deeply, give people strength. But it's really arrogant to talk down to people, especially when they are suffering. Compassion, true compassion, cannot come with condescension. You don't have ALL the answers, even if you think you do! That's the part that grates. But I do think you are well meaning. Just tone deaf.
0 -
that was a brilliant analogy! A broken vase. Exactly.
I've eliminated a lot of broken vases in my life. I can't do that to my grandchildren.
0 -
Timbuktu
First off big ((hug)).. I hope that this Saturday you get out of it from him but you put into it, I know its pure 'love'. I will say a prayer for you. I know the hurt is real and you cannot just wish it away. WE feel for a reason, and how sad it would be for us to not feel emotion..I guess we wouldnt know as we wouldnt know to be sad.. sounds twisted eh?
Linda-Ranch- I dont think anyone is making fun of you. I think you mean well and what you share may help someone and you have every right to express yourself. For me I choose to feel what I feel, I take full responsibility for my actions everyday, others should do the same. As many have said a little love, a kind gesture isnt asking or expecting too much. I also respect MYSELF to much to put up with other people direspecting me, I simply wont have it. I can forgive if it is warranted, not just to forgive. And I do think some things are unforgiveable. You simply cant wish it all away, reality is reality.
0 -
Thank you lemon. You know, I have a degree in psychology and a master's in education and I've been studying the great books for 7 years. I've been through 46 years of up and down with my husband and raised 3 kids and have 5 grandchildren. But I don't have "the answer". Not for me or anyone else. I'm just pushing through the best way i know how. There is a lot of wisdom on this thread, from everyone. I think everyone has something worthwhile to contribute. Of all the "wisdom" in the world, compassion for one another is the highest form.
0 -
Hi Day...Its been a long time....and we are still on the same page.Nice to see you.
linda----I think its great that what you say in all your posts are workin just fine for you...
And lots of it does make a lot of sense but to keep tryin to shove it down our throats is unfair.
I have a hard time forgiving.i work on it but somehow i fail all the time....or maybe i just dont want to.I dont think of the people who hurt me all the time....i work on putting them to sleep.Just keep away from me...if you did it once damn you will do it again.
0 -
I'm sorry so many feel hurt because of this, myself included. It runs in circles - sometimes Im able to brush it off others it just makes me angry.
The way I look at it the most is; I've not lost anybody - I've just realised they've never been there for real. That's good. Who wants to live a lie. We should be happy they are out today rather than tomorrow, although the loss is hurtful.
I have written down the positive gestures, thoughts, notes and letters I have got - trying to dwell on what is meaningful and positive. The rest don't need more attention.0 -
It is interesting (good information for me) that my attempts to deal with the actual topic of this thread -- which is about 'forgiving' and 'moving forward' in the relationship that 'hurts' you... comes across as 'hammering' or as 'unfair' or 'condescending'.
I know that my way of thinking may sound simplistic or even unsettling to some.
I know that -- beacause I sure used to blow-off people who said stuff to me like this -- because I was rooted in the idea that 'life was hard', 'relationships were difficult', 'people were disappointing'. It was SO true in my world, that I thought anyone who talked like I do now -- was an idiot.
Day once said something on another thread about me being a unicorn shitting rainbows.
Which I found pretty amusing -- because if anyone here had known me 5 years ago -- that would be about the LAST description you would have had of me.
Certainly sorry if I came off as condescending -- not sure what exactly did that -- but 'condescending' is absolutely not my intention. My intention is to say YES -- IN EVERY SINGLE RELATIONSHIP YOU CAN FIND PEACE AND MOVE ON. I am not saying it is 'easy' -- but it sure is possible. For those of you who think it isn't -- my "message" is meant to be one of encouragement.
You might do it like Granny and Day do -- by shutting your heart to those who have not met your expectations. That works -- totally works -- for some people.
You might do it like I did, by choosing to believe that the people in my life who have behaved in ways that I don't understand-- have behaved that way for some good reason of their own -- and whether I understand it or not -- it is their choice (and their right) to behave that way. I just have to imagine that they have made these choices based on their own thoughts, past-experiences, health, time constraints, and other distractions. And then I have to trust them that they are doing the best they can... and then I have to actively choose to 'not take it personally' (no matter how 'personal' it may feel) that they are behaving that way. Their behavior is about THEM -- not about ME.
Chemical -- Yes, I do understand that people (like Timbuktu) are grieving the loss of someone truly truly beloved. If my dad had disappeared during my cancer -- I would have worried very much what was going on with him in his own life that he felt he couldn't be there for me... because throughout his life he had always been there for me before. To not be 'himself' with me anymore -- would (to me) mean that something really traumatic was happening inside him. Whether or not I could see what that thing was -- I would just have to trust that to him it made our old way of being together impossible -- for now. And yes -- I would grieve the loss of his close friendship. And I would want to talk to him as honestly and as compassionately as I was capable of -- to ask him what was up. But he might not want to have that conversation. And I would have to accept that -- for now.
But what I don't think I would do (now) is 'blame' him for 'abandoning' me... because that was SO not in his nature. So -- if he did actually act in that way -- I would show my trust in him by believing that there was some very important (to him) circumstance that was keeping him away and appearing to be non-supportive. Maybe 'something' I could do nothing about... except keep my heart open and let him know I always would love him and that I missed him and hoped someday his circumstances would change and we could be back in each other's lives. But what I would try not to do would be to 'make him wrong'... because then, no matter what the conversation was, the context I would be coming from is 'he is wrong'. And that would leave him no room to show up any other way for me.
This -- I guess is the point of all this writing. I hope you all understand that I am not a professional (like Timbuktu or Day) -- I am simply a 58-year-old-woman who has had some extremely 'difficult' times in my life that left me (until just a few years ago) mired in disappointment and sadness.
But in the last few years, I have found (at least for me) that every single 'difficulty' was actually a huge opportunity to find insight -- and even epiphany -- But only if I actively look for that instead of staying rooted in the hurt and disappointment.
Every conversation we have here (or anywhere else) that lists our complaints about another person... creates another cement block of 'truth' in our hearts and minds. These conversations where we tell others to 'feel their feelings' and encourage them to foster thier pain and disappointments -- only helps them to feel more justified in their (sometimes harsh) judgments of others -- and helps them make those walls stronger -- the walls that keep people apart. So if what someone wants is to (like Granny or Day) simply shut out the people who haven't lived up to our expectations -- then bolstering those hurts is a great way to do that.
But if people actually do want to 'forgive' and 'move forward' -- then (in my experience -- which has actually proven to work for me) then this conversation needs to change. (hence my continued writing).
Yes, there have been friends who haven't written or called since they heard my dx. But I am not angry with them... I just keep sending them my bulk-emails so the communication stays open -- and assume that eventually they will show back up in my life when they feel that they can. Each one of them is an interesting addition to my life. Right now (for whatever reason) they are 'ebbing'. Later they still may 'flow'. Eventually, they may no longer be of interest for me -- they may simply get filed as 'past friends'. But there is no hurt at all attached for me -- because I trust that no matter what they are doing (or not doing) around me and my current state of health (which they may not even be very aware of) they are doing the best that they can, given their current circumstances. They may choose to 'be closer' in the future. Maybe not. In the meantime, I have new projects to keep me busy, and I make new friends.
My sister is the only (really close) person who (during my treatments/surgeries) kept showing up oddly for me -- She was angry all the time. Angry at me for things from 20 years ago. Angry at me because my cancer created a situation where she didn't feel she could TELL me that she was angry at me -- and that made her more angry! She was angry at cancer. Angry that life was unfair. Angry about my father's death. Angry about everything.
So, rather than just being a target for her anger, I started asking her if she was happy in her life right now. I drove for 10 hours (each way) to visit HER. I tried getting the conversation to be about whatever was actually at the root of all that anger... which I don't actually think is 'me' at all. She is normally a very positive and supportive person. This angry behavior is not like her -- so this is sign to me that something is seriously hurting in her heart.
She is still grieving my dad. She is stuck in the idea that 'as my big sister' it is her job to 'protect' me and she is angry at herself that she 'failed' to protect me from cancer -- and angry at me for making what she considers to have been foolish mistakes in my past by choosing what she considered to be 'the wrong men' and 'wrong friends'. It doesn't make any difference that these things make sense to me or not. This is about HER feelings. HER confusion. HER pain.
Her anger/pain isn't really about ME. Those are the thoughts in her own head that are keeping her stuck in anger. I can't do much except keep telling her what a wonderful big sister she has been, and to actually list all the marvelous things she did (as a child and much more recently) to help create the me that I am today. I reassure her that I am happier than I have ever been before. That there is no need to be angry at cancer. That I love her and just want her to be happy.
So right now our relationship is a little lopsided. Instead of her 'supporting me' through my cancer, I have more had to 'support her' through my cancer. It isn't what I would have expected, and probably wasn't her expectation, either... but that is just the way it is -- for now. She is finally in therapy, because even she can see that her anger doesn't really make sense -- and certainly isn't making her life any easier.
But, if I had risen to the bait -- and been angry that she was being 'unreasonably' angry at me... I think we would just be in a stand-off -- and I would absolutely be hurting and missing her.
Maybe I just shouldn't post here anymore... but these sorts of conversations are the ones that intrigue me the most. And -- my goal (even if I don't seem to be achieving it) it to say that YES -- relationships can be resolved -- at least in your own mind -- so that you don't have to be 'hurting' about them anymore.
It takes being willing to change your expectations. It takes trying on a new point of view. It takes being willing to stop judging (which is so ingrained that it may be quite difficult to do at first, but once you get the hang of it -- releases SO much of your mind and heart from 'should-ing' others and yourself... that the happiness virtually floods into the new empty space.)
It starts by choosing to stop the 'old conversation' about listing the slights -- and changing to a new conversation that is about how much you love them and why.
It takes searching for your happiness within you and in the beauty around you -- where ever it shows itself.
Another long one -- I'm sure the length of these posts is a big part of the 'hammering' feeling. I just want very much to find the right phrasing that might actually help someone else find this peace that I have found. You never can tell which idea will be the one that pierces through.
Hey -- so -- I guess we are all in our own phase of 'healing' and 'dealing' with our cancer. It helps ME to think I am potentially planting a seed of thinking that might help someone else, who 'suffers' from their cancer more than I do.
Thanks for (when possible) having compassion for MY desire to help... even if it is long-winded.
Linda
0 -
Linda! I just had an epiphany!
I am not a professional but I can tell you that mental health professionals have their own problems. My son an dil are both psychiatrists! lol i kid you not! And they "believe" a LOT in cognitive behavioral therapy which sounds an awful lot like what you are saying. I just realized why it bothers me so much. My son believes that if he changes his attitude everything will be ok. Sooo, if he chooses to ignore the fact that his mother has a life threatening disease, if he believes i don't need him, if he believes it is my problem, not his, if he believes he has no obligation to me, he doesn't! Nothing is real to him, it's all in his head and the way he sees things. And yes, that frees him, doesn't it?
I know you are not that way because of the way you took care of your father. You are the exact opposite. But what you are saying sounds a lot like it. And while someone like my son can buy a bit of freedom and happiness, it's at a cost that he does not acknowledge. The consequences don't exist for him. They are mine. They are his father's. They are his sisters. And I think that's what is so frustrating!
When I went to the onco shrink she told me to have a meeting with him and ask him "Why did you abandon me in my illness". lol I'm laughing because this professional is so clueless. I could never speak that way to him. He is such a narcissist and anything that smacks the least bit as criticism would set him off. that word "abandon" is very loaded. it's a condemnation, but it is essentially true.
Anyway, i appreciate your helping me think this thing through. I suspect your father, like mine, was the kind of person who would never turn his back on you. Otherwise you would not have loved him as you did. That is why the loss is so huge, there aren't many in this world like that. And I do know what you are saying. When i had my c section my father came to visit. He saw me hooked up to so many tubes, turned white and turned around and fled.
I never for a moment doubted his love. I knew it was his love that made him flee and I felt for him.
Interestingly my father never got angry. He saw things in a similar way as you. I always admired that actually.
but at the end, when he was in real need...it was different. he asked his brother for money so that he could pay for my mother's health care aide and it came immediately. It makes me tear up thinking about it. My father was so proud and independent. But the fact that his brother sent the money...it meant a lot more than the money. It meant he wasn't alone. It meant someone cared. I could have done more and will live with that guilt for my whole life. I shoul dhave done more. That's what we're here for! And when I neighbor recently was forclosed on his house we put him up. Everyone told us not to, that it wasn't our responsibility, etc. But I know what it means now to "need'. I know what it means to "help". And I had to do my best or I could not live with myself. There is that grain of truth in what you are saying that draws me back here. That we should not judge. We can just love.
So, so hard!
But i feel something so different from my son. Maybe I am mistaken and I hope I am, but things like this have happened before. when a son marries, he often forgets his parents and siblings. As a mother, i expected that. But when it comes to life and death....
And i did write him a very heartfelt email about how hard it was to go through chemo knowing i would never see my grandchildren again. He wrote back, "it was not my intention." According to what he told my husband, his wife came home with a dog one day. He's totally innocent. But you're right, that's his problem. He's kind of pathetic.
So, I will try my best.
You know not everyone is alike. Some people take no responsibility for the things they do and some take responsibilty for everything. Some have no guilt and others lots.
Well, i'll see my shrink today and bring this up. I don't think he believes in cognitive behavioral therapy either.
You know, when i got the cancer my son actually said to me "oh come on...who do you know who ever dies of breast cancer anymore?" He told me it was 99% curable in my case. All lies. Strange for a dr. no? He's living in la-la land.
He used to be a rock of realistic and intelligent thinking.
0 -
This is what reading the great books is like. We're reading Adam Smith's Theory of Moral Sentiments.
So i finish posting on here and decide to get my reading done and this is what I read.
"in the eye of nature, it would seem, a child is a lively, as well as a much more universal sympathy. It ought to do so. Every thing may be expected, or at least hoped, from the child. In ordinary cases, very little can be either expected or hoped from the old man. The weakness of childhood interests the affections of the most brutal and hard hearted. It is only to the virtuous and humane, that the infirmities of old age are not the objects of contempt and aversion. In ordinary cases, an old man dies without being much regretted by anybody."
0 -
But -- we don't have to be 'ordinary' people.
When Dad died... the funeral was packed. More than 200 people showed up... and he had no living relatives other than Mom, my sister, and me.
But -- he had taught Boy Scouts for over 50 years... and the number of grown men in the funeral congregation who had been his Scouts was staggering. His last visit in Hospice -- from someone outside the family -- were two brothers in their late 20's who had been part of his last troop. One was off to Alaska to work at McKinley National Park... and the other was doing some sort of marine biology work in the Galapagos. Dad LOVED their visit... I couldn't help but think about all the things he could have done and wanted to do himself... like run off and explore the world like those two young men ... but what he DID do was stay home, be responsible, marry, have two daughters, be a stellar husband and father... and work (through Scouts) for the betterment of the community.
We all still have that same opportunity to make a difference. We still have art and love and music and intelligence in us -- we each have something left to contribute to the larger world. We can volunteer to help with Scouts or Big Brothers/Big Sisters, or tutor kids, or volunteer to play with and hold the babies at an orphanage. We can walk dogs at the animal shelter. We can volunteer to help with our church, the local museum, the neighborhood association, a homeless shelter, our favorite charity or political cause.
Finding whatever that gift is that we still have to share -- that piece of us which will make the world a better place ... sharing that is where our real happiness lies.
And when we turn our attention to what we can do for others, instead of what we feel that our friends and family are not doing for us... then what our friends and family do or don't do becomes pretty unimportant. Our minds -- and our whole WORLD becomes full with the excitement of LIFE.
Dang -- I hope I haven't done it again... (I think I just shat another rainbow). But what I honestly want for everyone here -- and everyone on earth... is to find those things that make them happy -- and to experience life in fulfillment and peace.
My best to you all
Linda
0 -
No, i think what you said was lovely. And what a wonderful legacy your father left. A life well lived.
Actually, i do volunteer and it's the light of my life. Nothing like it. I was just thinking that the happiness it brings me can be greater than the unhappiness my son brings me. But I want to turn it around with him...somehow.
Adam Smith, if anyone is interested is amazing. He dissects our feelings and our moral in such an interesting way.
I'm very wrapped up in it right now. The last part I just read was about "self command" ie your power position.
Have to work on that! Off to the therapist!
0 -
I am beginning to feel like I have fallen in to a born again convention run by evangelists................Linda please give us a break, and allow me, at least, the space to breathe on this thread and not be preached at. I know you are well meaning but I am overwhelmed by rainbows right now.............and you also assume none of us are doing any of the things you talk about whereas I am active in animal rescue work and dog rehabilitation voluntarily.....amongst other things.
0 -
Yikes.
I'm going to have to stop visiting this thread.. Linda, so many of us have begged you -- each in our own way -- or at least hinted -- for you to stop preaching at us. You are just in a totally different head space. We have all made ourselves so clear.
Catch up with all of you on many other threads! It's too exasperating for me -- even if I don't read Linda's posts -- to read as all of my friends beg her to stop it.
0 -
ditto
0 -
Bye Bye then, girls.
If what someone writes here doesn't ressonate for you, or even if it irritates you -- why not just skip reading that post -- why the need to put someone else down or shut them up?
This is a public forum. Each of us has the right to offer whatever we value to the conversation. No need to be snarky. I have received several PMs from women who said they won't post on this particular thread because people here are being so judgmental and negative.
I ask you to remember that we ALL here have breast cancer. Most of us are here to support each other and search for solutions to the dilemas that cancer presents.
If my writing style or what I have to say sounds 'preachy' then I am sorry for that. My goal is to communicate well -- because what we are talking about is important to me. People being happy and having successful relationships is what I am most interested in. So -- for the information that my 'style' doesn't work for at least some of you (more easily-irritated and less-generous) women... Thanks for the feedback.
But I honestly wonder if you (most irritated) could understand what I am saying, no matter how I presented it... because what I am saying is not what you want to hear. I am saying that it is not about you and your expectations. Successful loving relationships are about honoring other people... and allowing them to be different than you.
Timbuktu has certainly disagreed with some of the things I have said -- but my-saying-them peeled off a new layer for her about what is up with her feelings of hurt about her son. Being irritated at ME -- helped her identify a missing piece that may help lessen her disappointment and move forward more lightly. For me -- this is worth all the time I have spent writing here... and the rebukes.
With the title of this thread being about actually wanting to heal relationships and 'forgiving' ... doesn't it seem reasonable to discuss practical approaches to those exact things?
I took a course a couple of years ago called "Interpersonal Communication". It was fascinating -- and encouraged me to stay engaged even in conversations that are uncomfortable -- because without conversation... we stay mired in our own minds and limited by our own personal experiences. The most uncomfortable conversations are often the ones that challenge our perspectives and enrich/broaden our view.
I wonder -- Is it only in chatrooms and on discussion boards (where you remain anonymous) that it is OK to tell others to shut up and that their ideas are unwelcome -- or do you appear this dismissive of other people's contributions in the real world, as well?
Hmmm -- and you say you have had some disappointments in your personal relationships? Maybe something to look at here, after all.
0 -
Good God ladies, lets settle down here.
want to see pic of my new car? I'm having my midlife this week. isn't she pretty. laugh a little people
0 -
Sorry, Fredntan, but I've got one last thing (maybe, hopefully, helpful) for Linda before she goes.
Linda, what's objectionable, to me, is your tone. Preachy and condescending, as the others say. I'm new here but I've been reading all along and I've come to feel admiration and even affection for the good ladies (and gent) here. To 'hear' you talk down to them bothers me. I came out of lurkdom yesterday to give you a "Yikes" which I didn't intend to be anything but the verbal equivalent of a raised eyebrow in a face to face conversation....meaning "Girl, maybe you'd like to re-phrase that, 'cause you sound awfully smug."
I understand that you don't understand why anyone would perceive you as condescending. If you WANT to understand that, maybe an example would help. In a recent post (and I'm omitting names) you say "You might do it like "X" and "Y" do - by shutting your heart to those who have not met your expectations."
You don't come right out and SAY that shutting your heart is a bad thing, but you don't have to, because, really, who doesn't know that? It's a put-down, okay? You go on to imply that X's and Y's own too-high expectations might've been the reason for the problem in the first place...a little bit more of that "blaming the victim" insensitivity that shows up a lot in your writing. And finally, to top it off, you say "That works for some people", with the obvious implication that it certainly would not work for you, since you're smarter, better, whatever.
But the casual reader generally doesn't think at all about the way words and phrases are used to get the writer's point across. You the writer may not have really thought about it either. Still, the message is there, subliminally sent, subliminally received, and the message is that you believe X and Y are rather small-minded people who can't forgive and expect far too much of everyone else, and you, of course, aren't like that at all.
That's what 'condescending' is. It's not an explicit "I'm better than you," but that's the message that's put between the lines, consciously or not.
I don't know if you'll find this helpful, but I hope you'll think about it. Maybe you'll have an epiphany.
"X" and "Y": I sure hope you don't take offense at your names being used in the example! I've read a lot of your posts, especially yours, Granny, and you're anything BUT closed-hearted.
Beezle0 -
Forgot to add... Cute car!
Best to you all,
Beezle0 -
not cool ganging up on someone like this. I'm outta here.
0 -
I deleted the post, guess I'm outta here, too. I was trying to be helpful, not unkind.
0 -
Beezle -- I didn't mean anything like you thought.
I said exactly what I meant. I know Day and Granny from other threads. They are strong, out-spoken, self-confident women who say exactly what they mean. And they both very clearly said that they write people out of their lives if they fail them. I very seriously mean that that approach works great for some people -- and I am pretty sure that Granny and Day don't give a rat's pa-tooty if I would choose the same approach. I admire their strength. And I doubt they care that they have my admiration.
But most people aren't that strong. If you are -- then the write-them-out approach is a GREAT one for stopping the waste of hurting-over-something-that-isn't-going-to-change. A GREAT way to move on. There is absolutely no superior attitude or put-down in my words. I mean it... severing the bond works great -- if you can do it.
But this approach doesn't work for a lot of people because most people don't really want to write their loved ones off.
They want to change them.
And most of those loved ones will NOT change.
So where does that leave the women who are feeling hurt and disappointed?
Stuck.
The only people we can change is ourselves. We can let go of our expectations and accept others just as they are. It really is the only way to have relationships that last and are satisfying.
Apparently what you objected to -- the 'superior tone' that you 'heard' was only based (at least in this instance) on your not-believing that I wrote exactly what I meant to say. Your expectations of what you thought I would say got in the way of our communication. You read between the lines something that simply wasn't there.
Oh BTW -- I was saying 'Bye Bye' to Bobogirl and Sharkri -- both of whom are too "exasperated" to stay in the conversation.
I am still willing to speak to anyone here who has something real to say -- whether it is about 'forgiving family and friends' or about my failed writing style -- or whatever else you want to tell me about your perceptions of what I wrote, or actual new (hopefully positive and benificial) conversation.
This is the way we learn what works -- and what doesn't -- with other people.
We stay in conversation.
I appreciate your attempt to actually communicate and not just criticize.
And FRAN -- great new car! I'd love to go for a ride!
Linda
0 -
I showed EVERYONE at work today pics of my new car. DH wasn't even mad at me when he came in late from travel and I told him about my car. That will teach him to leave his phone off/uncharged.
I am reconnecting with my friend-havn't gotten together yet-we have opposite schedules. But it does feel good to be friends again. I'm even going to forgive the kid that stole my drugs last winter and tried to kill himself. Will forgive, not forgetting. drugs locked up now.
0
