STEAM ROOM FOR ANGER
Comments
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Runor, you are a phenomenal writer, and I appreciate you coming back to this conversation. It is because of your honesty of how you feel in the first place, I finally got the nerve to say how I felt. I appreciate you more than you know.
NotAsCalmAsILook, I want to apologize that your rant is getting lost in the middle of this conversation. I do hear your frustration and feel for you. Hugs from here.
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Bravo KBL and Runor and the other voices daring to speak up.
Bravo to my girl Aprilgirl for being the kind challenger.
Its frankly a shame to see the dog piling on this thread of late. The way KBL has been spoken to by the majority of responders for daring to say something about the one sided takeover of the steam room thread is appalling. There are plenty of political safe spaces devoid of challenging to take refuge in on bc.org. The mods interfered once already in this thread not far back to ask it be taken there. I'd ask they reiterate the point.
Bc.org is great I find if you stick to the treatment threads, but I find if you venture too far away it decends to this. Very unfortunate. If I wasn't bonded to a group of women on here and if I didn't have Stage IV I'd probably leave and not come back. This sort of thing is spreading in too many places on here and really needs to stop.
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Thank you, Rabbit. I am so appreciative of those who are stepping forward with me, whether here or in private. I would like nothing more than to stop talking about the shit show that is happening in our country right now and get back to what this thread was before, so people like NotAsCalmAsILook can be heard and not shoved into the background for what she feels about her cancer.
When people are considering leaving this forum because of these posts, it makes me so sad. I am here for support, and I truly believe I get so much support from the other threads. I really thought hard about coming off this thread, but I did feel I needed to speak up and be heard.0 -
KBL, my consideration was based on how people were speaking to you and how the majority seemed to have no problem with it and tried to justify it. You speaking up was a very good thing, don't apologize or doubt speaking up. I applaud you.
This thread needs to go back to its intention just as KBL said.
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Thank you, Rabbit. It means a lot.
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My home country does not have enough vaccines for everyone. There are many other countries around the world with the same problem. In the last couple of weeks, these are the sentences I have told over and over again "I am sorry for your loss", "I hope he/she (and in some cases they) gets better soon". People are traveling abroad to get the vaccine: the Astra Zeneca that we, the privileged people, consider to be inferior. The rich in the country, who can't travel for some reason, are paying up to a thousand Canadian dollars to get a shot of some smuggled Pfizer vaccine without knowing if the shot is really Pfizer or just water. Others? Just waiting hours in line to maybe get a Chinese or Russian shot. My uncle, an otherwise relatively healthy 60 something old, died of Covid a month ago. He was not fully vaccinated because his age group was not eligible yet.
Why did I write all of this? Because what angers me is that right now our accumulative efforts should have been toward providing vaccines to the rest of the world. This pandemic is not over until it is over everywhere. Instead? We are waisting valuable time and resources to convince anti vaxers (without valid medical reasons) to get the shot. Our resources are spent for those who are benefiting from the vaccine already: the fact that our health system is not at full capacity are vaccinated people and those who have complied with public health measures in the last couple of months. Being privileged and selfish is what angers me. Right now, our focus should have been pressuring the government to help the whole world getting vaccinated. Instead? Vaccines are getting expired in developed countries because officials are still hoping people will come to their senses. Unfortunately no.
And about health care system breaking down if the virus is not under control? This picture shows a glimpse into what having over capacity hospitals mean in a pandemic. Members of one family getting medication at home because the hospitals are over capacity with Covid patients right now.
Now because it is easier to think about what affects us personally, just think about a Covid variant that might not respond to the vaccine anymore, and it is more contagious and deadly than the current ones. This is what we will be dealing with unless if we go into complete lock down again.
Am I angry at those who are voluntarily not getting vaccinated? Hell yeah.
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You have a right to be angry, as do I. I’m so sorry for what your home country is dealing with. I agree, the vaccine should be made available worldwide for those who want it. I never said I think people shouldn’t get the vaccine or the opportunity to get it if they sodesire. We keep having the same argument, and, frankly, it’s going to be a no-win for either side, and sadly, there are sides. I wish it weren’t so.
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Aram - I'm so sorry. I can't imagine how you're feeling. We do need to vaccinate the world to end this pandemic. This shouldn't be political and hidden away.
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KIDI - Did your SIL have the same reaction to both doses? I only had a reaction to the first. Hope her third goes as well as possible.
runor - You state the variants are due to the vaxxed?
How did the Delta variant develop in India late in 2020 when India didn't begin to vaccinate until January 2021 and hardly anyone else in the world was vaccinated?
How come no new variants of concern are coming out now from highly-vaccinated areas?
I'd really like to know.
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SerenityStat, I’ve heard your stance loud and clear. I won’t be commenting anymore, unless I feel the need to. Unlike some, I think making my views known a few times is enough. No need to repeat. I am going to go enjoy my day.
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I found this interesting although not peer reviewed yet. Doing my best to remain neutral here because truth is with a novel virus it is going to take time to get the correct answers. Even with vaccines it seems we are still not quite there.
COVID SCIENCE-mRNA vaccines trigger backup immune response; some cancer drugs may help (msn.com)
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"Those who got vaccinated created the push for the virus to get worse"
Alpha, Delta, Beta and all the other lovely letters came before the first vaccine administered. Actually now that you mention it, I think there hasn't been any major variant since vaccination began.
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KBL - To be clear, I'm willing to hear you out, but you are going to ignore me. I've never asked you to be silent.
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"truth is with a novel virus it is going to take time to get the correct answers."
Very good point. Even scientists don't know it and change their views as new data emerges. But unfortunately it gives ammunition to anti-science/skeptical types to point and say see, even they don't know what they're talking about, while in reality this is exactly how science is supposed to work, science is not 2+2=4. That's math!
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SerenityStat, just to answer your question, I will not be ignoring you. I will continue to read, and I would even read a new thread. I just want it to be separate. This topic has consumed this thread, which isn’t fair to many.
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I will agree that an ongoing and contentious discussion should take place in another thread.
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Serenity - there is indeed a hypothesis, or train of thought, that vaccinating during a pandemic is the worst time to do so for the very reason that it pushes viruses to mutate. I said that this was a plausible possibility. Blaming variants on the unvaxxinated is a witch hunt. Blaming the continued pandemic on the unvaxxed is wrong and thoughtless. You assume that this virus could have ever been wiped out. That assumption is coming to light as more doubtful all the time and a stupid goal to boot. At the very start of this John Ioannidis said viruses do what they do and we know this from all the collected history of human viruses. He said, we can flatten curves but if we think we can save those who are going to die, we are mistaken. By spreading the deaths out over a longer period of time, by taking drastic measures we may congratulate ourselves on what looks like a lower death count, only we will spread it over a longer period of time. When the dust settles, those who were going to die will be dead. Fast, slow, with or without untold societal and economic damage inflicted by arrogant governments and panicked populations, virus is gonna virus. Because his view was not what the politicos wanted to hear or wanted the public to hear, he was removed from the scene. But he is turning out to be right. That lone voice of a small man in a weird suit. He called it. Do what you want, people are going to die, that is how life on this planet works, sorry to say. Have a world war or civil war over the measures you take, set friends into foes, relatives into strangers, the virus doesn't care, it's going to do what it's going to do.
I acknowledge that people here have better reasons than most to be vaccinated. Immune compromised is a huge factor in personal risk assessment. But most have lost sight of the truth that to the majority of people who get covid, it will be a non-event. We are acting like we are all going to get covid and all going to die from it. That is utterly not even close to being true. People here are at a higher risk. Get the vax. It makes sense. But for the love of god, having taken the shot that is supposed to save you, that you took to protect your own life, either live like you are protected , mask and distance if you want. But quit with the howling that you are entitled to feel safe and everyone else should abort the life they had in 2019 to provide you your fictional safety. No they should not. You are not, for any reason aside from the wholesale death of our kids, entitled to even believe you are justified in demanding that sacrifice from your neighbours. That entitlement is rooted in all sorts of false assumptions: we can stop this virus, we're all going to die, the world would be better if the unvaxxed would just catch covid and drop dead, as long as they do it in ditches and seedy hotels and don't go to the hospital where we treat only people who meet a virtue standard and have the social brownie points of caring about others. Blah.
Discussion is good. Grand. Imperative! But at this point, ALL of us from ALL perspectives could be wrong! Me included. I am willing to see if I am wrong, if I live that long. But at this point none of us know. A little humility would go a long way.0 -
Are any of you who are unvaccinated (besides for medical legitimate reasons) specialists in virology or epidemiology? Why don't you post links from reputable sources to back what you're saying? I'd be curious to see anything legitimate that contradicts all the information from the U.S. CDC and the international WHO and our state and county health departments and the major hospitals, which is where I get my information on which I based my decision to be fully vaccinated, and to continue to wear a mask. I do not care about opinions (nor have I from the beginning of this pandemic). I only trust FACTS FROM REPUTABLE SOURCES.
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viruses mutate only when there is transmission between hosts.
Remember viruses cannot replicate on their own (which means that depending on which biological definition of life you use, viruses may or may not be alive). They need to infiltrate a host and use the host's cell to insert their genetic material and only then they can replicate.
So the way to stop viruses mutating is to stop transmission - through masking, social distancing, staying home when sick and getting vaccinated.
(I think some people might be confusing antibiotic resistance in bacteria and how bacteria mutate to evade drugs .... bacteria and viruses are totally different and have different evolutionary mechanisms)
And yes, variants appeared before vaccination and will continue to appear as long as there is transmission
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From an earlier post re:pandemic of Covid - "This vaccine- or- not divide is no longer a medical issue. It is a moral / mental health issue." WRONG. This a medical issue, period. If people would stop characterizing it as politics, religion, cults, patriotism, ideology, intuition, whatever and focus on medical/clinical studies we could all get along....better, anyway. False narratives maybe be the Fourth Horseman.
BTW, vaccine or not has take over a place to rant about our cancer (so we can save relationships with friends and family and doctors). Can you take this to a vaccine forum, please?
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what I'm hearing is people saying 'life is risky, suck it up buttercup, some people are just gonna die, stop being so hysterical about it' and I find that immensely troubling
I *am* demanding safety and demanding that people who are not following safety rules do not go to public places. Fortunately BC is getting on board with the vaccine passport and the mask mandate and that will go a long way to reducing transmission and keeping people safer.
SerenitySTAT, I see what you mean about the numbers & trying to get the denominator. This is the closest I can get I think:
83.3% of BC'ers are partially vaccinated
75.1 % are fully vaccinated
So 24.9% are unvaccinated & constitute 70.2% of cases, & 77.7% of hospitalizations.
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I, too, agree with Alice (and Beesie, Serenity and many others).
I’ve been following this discussion and find it both interesting and frustrating. I’m guilty of many of the attitudes that seem to trouble runor so much but I have a GD who is too young to be vaccinated and too beloved to be put at risk unnecessarily (so it’s not all about my narcissism). While I’m not convinced that anyone’s opinion will be changed, it does seem that many on BCO appreciate having a place to rant and vent about this issue.How about a new thread - Fight Club: To vax or not to vax . Any volunteers???
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runor - Thanks for answering my question. The hypothesis that vaccinations push viruses to mutate (and create variants) is proven wrong when the COVID variants emerged before the vaccines. Since most of the world is inadequately vaccinated, it's possible for new variants to emerge, but none have emerged from highly-vaccinated areas. Am I missing something?
Sweden tried to build herd immunity without masks and lockdowns and have done worse than similar nations. Most other countries would have fared much worse than Sweden with its natural social distancing. I remember an interview with the Swedish epidemiologist. He admitted he didn't account for the deaths in his plan.
https://www.businessinsider.com/sweden-covid-no-lockdown-strategy-failed-higher-death-rate-2021-8
moth - That's the best way to calculate those rates. Using population statistics is not as accurate as bed counts, but the numbers are more informative. The bigger the population, the less absolute accuracy matters.
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I'll be happy if anyone wants to start a new thread, so we won't hijack this. We even have a Covid branch!
The good news is that countries around the world are doing it so differently so organically: shutting borders like NZ/AUS for years, letting it rip through population in many poor countries, no-lockdown like Sweden, High vaxx, low vaxx, etc. so we will eventually have data which one was the better approach and what actually helped.
One interesting example is Iceland. It's a small highly vaccinated country and they had a huge surge recently, but they haven't had a single death since May.
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Dear Members,
Due to the extreme contentious nature of the topic of vaccines, we are requesting that your conversation steer back to addressing members' other issues that also need attention. We appreciate your understanding and attention to this request.
The Mods
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PS Aram, I am so sorry that your family and friends are suffering so much. I hope that the US and other nations reach out to provide safe vaccines to all in need in the near future. We are truly facing an international pandemic and the only way it will be solved is by treating it as such.
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Okay. This topic will not go away, so please do as the moderators have asked twice now. Please, please start a new thread. I am not trying to silence anyone. It's going round and round and is just taking over this awesome thread to help others rant about something other than COVID. I have never once tried to change anyone's mind here. This is my last post about this, as I am going to respect the moderators. I AM NOT ANTI VAX. Stop labeling me. You do not know me.
What is so hard for you all to start a new thread?
Here is the perfect spot for it.Forum: All things COVID-19 or coronavirus
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NotAsCalmAsILook - yes - it is A LOT that we deal with as cancer patients. Although I have had years in between treatment from stage 1 to stage IV, it's surreal how this "new normal" has become routine for me...until I need to change treatment. I try to focus on now so I don't get too far on a "hamster wheel" of doom/what next. I am thankful for my current treatment working for the past 21/22 months. I type this with serious joint pain in my hands (from fulvestrant), and drinking my really good, hot morning coffee.
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We all need to be vaccinated unless exempt for medical reasons. It's the only way out of this mess. There's a long way to go before we have sufficient vaccines available for the entire world, rich and poor alike. The whole point is to achieve herd immunity. This is a difficult, maybe an impossible task, so why make it more difficult by refusing a vaccination when it's offered?
Am I selfish to expect others to get vaccinated to protect me? It's the way herd immunity works. It isn't selfish or wicked, it isn't my narcissistic sense of self worth talking here. I just want all of us to get out of this mess alive. Vaccination looks like the only way. I don't like it, but there it is.
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I won't create a new topic. I've created a few already. In case I decide to delete my account, I don't want another topic to disappear because of me.
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