Great saying about depression
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Oh Veggy good for you!! I am so glad you stood up for yourself and spoke up. You know I was having a chat with my PS and I told him about an argument I had with another doctor and that he was such an a$$ I fired him. My PS said that doctors really need to listen to patients because everything we say good or bad makes them a better doctor. I am glad you are giving her a second chance, now perhaps she will be more selective in the words she uses when talking with you. And you dont have to start all over with a new therapist.
Ok I worked out today did my first spinning class...45 minutes and a little over 8 miles. and this morning I ran with Charlie our daily 3 miles. I felt so good afterwards but fear my a$$ and legs will be killing me tomorrow. It is hard to push myself to do this but I know the end result will be a much happier me.
Hope everyone had a good Monday!
Diane
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Veggy...WOW!!! You GO girlfriend!!! How very brave of you to say all that to the therapist that NEEDED to hear it all!! I am in awe of you!! You did what you said you were going to do, even though there was a confrontational aspect to the words. I am blown away!!!! You gone good!
Diane, I can't even WALK 3 miles....I am in awe of THAT too!!
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You should have seen the body posture. I was sitting in the chair with my feet up on another chair. I looked like I was ready to ponce. I also had a very sassy attitude. I felt like you girls were behind me cheering me on. Thanks. I couldn't have done it without you!
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I'm so proud of you veggy - it's nice to hear good news. hoo-rah!
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i, too, am SO proud of you, veggy, and im glad she listened, and apologized.. i just left my therapist, and never went back when i got 'tude from him.. hmm... im having a tough time again, and im thinking of going back, but i don't think it'll be him... but, i can take your example, and start FRESH with someone else... something i'll be thinking about.. thanks.0
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My therapist had the gall to say that I seem to live from test to test. I said, yep, what's your point? That shut him up. I was half way through my appointment last week when he asked me what the bandage on my neck was. Oh, this old thing? just from a biopsy on my thyroid (IDIOT!!!).... He seems to get it one week, then seems surprised the next week when I'm still talking about it. I don't have an answer yet!! Of course the wait is killing me!!! I see the ENT this Friday. I called my PCP's office to tell them to send my results to him as I'll be seeing him Friday. I'm kind of hoping my doc doesn't call me with results....
I'm at a weird point. Someone, more than one person, knows the result of my biopsy. But I don't. I could just bury my head and never go in to get the result or I could go in to find out. It's a very empowering position to be in. The test is done, now, do I want the result or not?
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connie- Determined and DiDel already gave you some great advice. When you're feeling down just read it over again and realize that it's all part of the process. I think a lot of us feel we are defective or something because we're not bouncing back from all this quickly. But there are so many layers to having BC and each one has to be processed in its own way and time. 5 weeks is nothing in the grand scheme of things. I know it's probably depressing to think this is such a long process but just know we're all here for you as you go through it. (((hugs)))
Determined and Diane- So well said, both of you. If I was writing a book I'd get permission to quote you both!
veggy- Wow!!! I am in awe of you- YOU GO GIRL!!! You not only spoke up, you also helped the next cancer patient that comes along that this therapist might treat. I think it's great, too, that you're willing to give her another chance and that she admitted she was wrong. You are my hero!
barbe- If they have the test results now why don't you want to know? I don't think I could wait that long. I'd have to know so I can move forward either way. Hope it all works out.
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thank you for words of kindness, it means so much at this time..im going home for christmas in 2 weeks..all my family is back east..they know about everything from day 1..but they havent seen the changed me yet...you are all so very right , i have so many mixed feelings and thoughts..its like a dream..and trying to wake up..my husband dont understand, he thinks i should be beaming with happiness..dont get me wrong i am happy that my out come was good..but im so unhappy..i put my clothes on ,they are up on one side, down on the other..the fluffy just dont do nothin..i cant get fitted for another 6 weeks,cus im still tender and sore,,i spend more hours just crying over this..and i know i shouldnt..i know im new to this and im trying very hard to cope..but the anger is still all around me and so are the FITS that i have..2 years is a long time to except my body..but if thats how long it take ..well ill just have to live with that...i am sorry ladies.. for venting..
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connie don't apologize. This is a very big traumatic change in your life. It gets easier. And then it get's harder and then it get's easier. Of course you are glad the cancer is out but now you are learning how to live with this very permanent change. Even with good outcomes it takes time to accept. To learn how to be .......... Be gentle very gentle. Allow the emotions and then put one foot forward. I am almost two years out, not done with reconstruction and got some news last night about a recon issue that made me very angry and sad. Sometimes being able to say it outloud or in writing validates it for ourselves. the thing is I have expressed feeling the same emotion at different times over and over. Because that is how this disease hits us. In waves sometimes over and over. So saying it once won't be the end of it probably and that is ok. We are here.
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The hardest part for me is how much harder this whole process is than it needs to be. I just read an article that said that where ever there is a BS there should also be a PS on staff. I think it needs to go further than that. There should be a PS on staff who can advise you on all the pros and cons of each type of recon or no recon at all. There should be someone on staff who also checks in with your emotional health throughout the entire process. And also lets you know about the possible emotional stages even years out. I know when we had hospice come in when my Grandma was dying of cancer they counseled the family members on all the stages on grief they would likely go through. Why isn't this being done for cancer patients as well since we experience the same emotions? Shouldn't they have a formula for now for optimal treatment? It's not like this is a newly discovered disease.
Determined- Sorry about your news yesterday. I know it sometimes feels like two steps forward, one step back. Hopefully we are all moving forward- even if it's at a snail's pace.
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This is so true. When we are being strong, we use up neurotransmitters like serotonin and GABA much more quickly than usual. Eventually we become deficient in neurotransmitters and the result is depression.
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Jane interesting comment
Kate I get what you are saying but for me every day was a different problem...my journey was such a rollercoaster with good news...then bad...then worse news...then chemo/ I think if someone tried to explain what I would be going through esp if they had never gone through it I wouldve told them to kiss my a$$! Of course thats just me ... plus your mind is jello and cant retain anything. I had to have someone with me at every appt to take notes. I was in a state of shock right up until surgery. My cancer center/hospital is a facility where they have a tumor board which includes everyone in the cancer center...nurses..BS...PS...radiation onc...med onc they review each case together and they come up with multiple scenarios and rate which would be best. I believe in my case I couldve had multiple lumpectomy and rads or MX... obviously MX was top choice. I took three days to make my decision and then once I did I met with the PS but like I said previously since I was thin at the time of diagnosis and cancer was invasive and multifocal I didnt have options for recon BUT did meet with two PS's to feel good about the plan. NOW if they would have just said it was gonna be 2 1/2 year process ..that is what I wish I knew at the beginng. I was listening to Guiliana Rancics story and she is having a NSM in NYC. I think she had DCIS in one breast and IDC in the other but still very small and very early. She is lucky she has so many resources.
Barbe why the heck would you not want to know?? I would have been sitting on the steps of the docs office and bribed the nurses with cupcakes to get those results asap! You might actually get good news and rest peacefully tonight. I know its hard to think about one more thing going wrong and to be facing surgery again but you need to know.
I was talking to my BS about a friend who recently passed away from BC and he treated her..I asked why she died so quickly from the date of diagnosis. He said she had it all over her and that her nodes were hard rocks all up and down her sides.. she was late stage IV by the time she came in to see him. The shame of it is her and I were long time volunteers for the Childrens Cancer FOundation and Dr. Ben Carson and many other TOP oncologist from NIH and Hopkins sit on the board! She had access to the best docs in the country and ignored her pain and symptoms. Such a shame she was the funniest sweetest woman I loved being around her.
I know its hard to face the truth at times but things wont get better by denying them.
I hope everyone is having a better day.
Diane
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Barbe,
You have given me so much good advice, I thought I would mention something that an oncology nurse recently told me. The FASTEST way to get your results are to call the medical records department where you had the procedure/test done. They are required to give you a copy as soon as it is ready.
I had an MRI last friday, and marched to medical recordstoday to get a copy of my results. Of course, I made a mad dash to the car to read it, and thankfully all is well....BUT I still have not heard from my doctors office about the results even with leaving a message yesterday.
Lola
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This is a great quote! I am new to this discussion forum. I finished my treatment way back in May 2011, had a great recovery but now its seemed there's this wall in front of me - the wall of sadness and fears. Not sure if this is normal- since I started to do the things I was doing before...like back to work, picking up where I left off before my diagnosis..etc. I was doing well until recently-- on and off - I will fall back and be sad
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Welcome lisasmithy, jump in with your rants and raves whenever you want. We skip around quite a bit, so get ready for the ride of your life!
It's not that I don't WANT the results, It's just the timing. I had the biopsy last Wednesday. The doc said one week. That makes it tomorrow. If I drive up to the medical records and ask for a print-out, that's $50 plus $12 for parking. Or, I could wait 2 more days and hear it for free on Friday. I don't know if my doc is going to call me when he gets the results or just be reassured that I'm seeing the ENT surgeon on Friday anyway. I'd rather hear bad news with a plan, than just bad news up in the air. I know I'll have to get this removed either way. I had a HUGE substernal goiter removed 10 years ago and this could very well just be it, having grown back. So, I'm concerned but not worried. I'm just glad it's being looked at as it's affecting my breathing.
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lisasmithy- Everything you're describing is normal, not only for BC patients, but for all cancer patients. It's very similar to the grieving process. And it's sometimes hard when everyone around us thinks life is back to normal but you're nowhere near that point. There's no right or wrong time line for "getting over" having BC. The most important thing is you see yourself moving forward which it appears you are. We all have our down days and when you have yours just try to be kind to yourself and know it's all part of the process and it's not always going to be like this. Those days will come farther and fewer between. Maybe they'll never leave us completely, though I hope they do, but they also won't rule our lives the way they can in the beginning. But we're always hear to listen on those days.
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So I just found this article on the 7 Stages of Grief and found it eerily similar to what we all are/have gone through. If you substitute "loved one" for breast(s) it is spot on!
7 Stages of Grief...
1. SHOCK & DENIAL-
You will probably react to learning of the loss with numbed disbelief. You may deny the reality of the loss at some level, in order to avoid the pain. Shock provides emotional protection from being overwhelmed all at once. This may last for weeks.
2. PAIN & GUILT-
As the shock wears off, it is replaced with the suffering of unbelievable pain. Although excruciating and almost unbearable, it is important that you experience the pain fully, and not hide it, avoid it or escape from it with alcohol or drugs.You may have guilty feelings or remorse over things you did or didn't do with your loved one. Life feels chaotic and scary during this phase.
3. ANGER & BARGAINING-
Frustration gives way to anger, and you may lash out and lay unwarranted blame for the death on someone else. Please try to control this, as permanent damage to your relationships may result. This is a time for the release of bottled up emotion.You may rail against fate, questioning "Why me?" You may also try to bargain in vain with the powers that be for a way out of your despair ("I will never drink again if you just bring him back")
4. "DEPRESSION", REFLECTION, LONELINESS-
Just when your friends may think you should be getting on with your life, a long period of sad reflection will likely overtake you. This is a normal stage of grief, so do not be "talked out of it" by well-meaning outsiders. Encouragement from others is not helpful to you during this stage of grieving.During this time, you finally realize the true magnitude of your loss, and it depresses you. You may isolate yourself on purpose, reflect on things you did with your lost one, and focus on memories of the past. You may sense feelings of emptiness or despair.
7 Stages of Grief...
5. THE UPWARD TURN-
As you start to adjust to life without your dear one, your life becomes a little calmer and more organized. Your physical symptoms lessen, and your "depression" begins to lift slightly.
6. RECONSTRUCTION & WORKING THROUGH-
As you become more functional, your mind starts working again, and you will find yourself seeking realistic solutions to problems posed by life without your loved one. You will start to work on practical and financial problems and reconstructing yourself and your life without him or her.
7. ACCEPTANCE & HOPE-
During this, the last of the seven stages in this grief model, you learn to accept and deal with the reality of your situation. Acceptance does not necessarily mean instant happiness. Given the pain and turmoil you have experienced, you can never return to the carefree, untroubled YOU that existed before this tragedy. But you will find a way forward.7 stages of grief...You will start to look forward and actually plan things for the future. Eventually, you will be able to think about your lost loved one without pain; sadness, yes, but the wrenching pain will be gone. You will once again anticipate some good times to come, and yes, even find joy again in the experience of living.0 -
Sorry about all the font, font, fonts. Don't know why it did that!
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Kate, Thanks for posting the 7 stages of grief for us. I have read them before, but it has been a while. I seem to be stuck in stage 4...
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#7. "Acceptance does not necessarily mean instant happiness. Given the pain and turmoil you have experienced, you can never return to the carefree, untroubled YOU that existed before this tragedy. But you will find a way forward."
This is so true. This is where I have to find the now me and accept her. I'm looking for the way.
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am really in the dark hole that IS my life right now.. when MS, and breast cancer didn't put me in it, hypothyroidism HAS!!! but, depression is a side efect of them all; and i can't take the one med that was working for ther depression.. im hoping over holiday break, my DH and i can outsaide, and moving a little. that always helps.. right now, im afraid of falling, if going alone.. Barbe: it could be your thyroid acting up again, since they never gave you meds before. i understand not wanting to apend the money, time, and hassle, but it sure IS crazy making!!!
since my DH got hit, and the car was totalled, we had to spend all the extra $$$ we saved for his time off, on the car that we need to drive now.. no holiday "cheer" here, thats for aure.. oh well, it'll pass soon!!
Hang in there, you lovely ladies...
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Kate, I thought we've been talking about the stages of grief all along!! It's good to see them all in one place and I find it VERY interesting about #6 as it mentions RECONSTRUCTION!!! We all went through these stages just with the cancer diagnosis. It was a grief for our lost health and innocence. Thanks for posting them all at once.
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The thing is with the "stages of grief" -- you can keep cycling through them, it's not like you reach "stage 7" and that's it -- you might feel at peace and accepting one day , and then the next day be experiencing feelings described in "stage 3" like anger and bargaining. Given that so many of us don't just have treatment and then it's over but continue to experience a host of medical and emotional issues--that's even more understandable.
Kate 33 " I think it needs to go further than that. There should be a PS on staff who can advise you on all the pros and cons of each type of recon or no recon at all. There should be someone on staff who also checks in with your emotional health throughout the entire process. And also lets you know about the possible emotional stages even years out. "
That's very well stated and I so agree. It kind of floors me how few BC treatment centers have any kind of encompassing treatment plans---maybe the larger centers have more resources, but for me it's always been a piecemeal plan - surgeon concentrates on surgery, the onc on chemo, the radiologist on radiation, & then if you're having "trouble" coping, for insurance purposes you often have to be "diagnosed" with some kind of disorder like depression, something they can actually do medical coding for billing purposes, in order to see a psychiatrist for example, when really one's responses are not necessarily an emotional illness, but I'd say pretty normal reactions.
Barbe1958--keeping you in my thoughts, I hope you find out soon.
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Wish I could join in more-getting a cortisone shot a week from Friday.
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MBJ -- I feel for you!--, I hope the corisone shot gives you some relief.
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MBJ why do you have to wait!! If you need the shot, you should get it immediately!!! I feel so bad for you, with the weather getting damper and cooler, you'll only feel worse, probably. Uh oh, do you think you're this bad because of where you moved? If so, your body WILL get used to it, honest! I deal with horrid winters every year. I just learn what not to do.
My docs office phoned me this morning to tell me they don't have the results yet! She said she had just talked to Medical Records and it hadn't been filed yet. Nice to know I don't have to go up there...
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MBJ I am so sorry you are in so much pain but glad you are getting the cortisone shot. I hope that brings you total relief.
Barbe aaaahhhh I understand I think when you are a frequent flyer at a medical facility you shouldnt have to pay to travel there. The medical center my onc works at increased their prices for parking and took away the $1 off discount cancer patients used to get. I complained very loudly and got a year's worth of complimentary parking coupons.
Well fingers crossed for benign results!3jays I am so sorry you too are having such a hard time lately. I wish we all lived closer to be able to reach out and help out when needed.
Kate nice post...I havent decided where I am but I reserve the right to revert back a stage at any time.
Today is raining and gross out and I have a meeting with the BIOTCH at the firm I do work for during tax season. She has limited my work schedule for the last two years so I went out and go another client. Wont she be surprised when I tell her I can only work 3 days a week this tax season.
Hope you are having a better day
Diane
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MBJ- You need to get better because we all miss you around here!!!!
3jays- A few days ago a new member, named JaneHenderson, posted on here. I think she was just promoting her own blog, though, so someone reported her and the Moderators edited her post to remove her link to her blog. I almost reported her, too, but then I checked out her website and there was actually some really good info on there about natural remedies for treating depression. I tried to find her blog and I'm not sure if I found the right one but I will PM you the info if you're interested.
FLwarrior- I think I was stuck in stage 4 for a very long time. I think this is the roughest stage of all! There's just so many different things to process emotionally that come along with BC. It really helps to constantly check in with yourself and see what things help (spending time with friends and family, going to a support group, exercising, etc.) and then try to incorporate more of that into your life. For me, it was returning to my first thread- NSM- and trying to help the newbies. I hope you can find something that works for you, too, but also tell yourself stage 4 is a normal part of the process.
ellemint- Thanks for posting about the cycling between stages. I had forgotten that but this is something that hospice told us when they came in for a family member. It can sometimes feel like you're sliding backwards when it's all perfectly normal.
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Kate great article. Sorry this makes this post so very long, but my husband actually found this for me when he was searching the internet for ways to be supportive. I have sent this to several and used it at the mastectomy support group I go to. It is grief stages but specific to losing a breast. It is so right on. I think it is very helpful. Hope no one is upset it is creating such a large post, but I think it is helpful.
Stages of Grief After Losing A Breast
by Becky Zuckweiler
Anticipatory Grief
Grief is an unfolding process that consists of five basic stages. We start the grieving process as soon as we learn that a mastectomy is a possibility and continue grieving long after the surgery is over. Grief for an impending loss is referred to as anticipatory grief
Stage 1
Denial
When we first experience loss we go into the denial stage, during which we may feel shock, disbelief, and numbness. The denial stage is nature's way of cushioning us from the bluntness of reality. Denial allows us to gradually absorb the painful truth. Many women who have grieved the loss of a breast describe their response in the denial stage as hearing the information the doctor is telling them as though the physician is ta1king about someone else. They find themselves thinking that cancer and mastectomies happen to other people, not them. This response can give you time to intellectually attend to the details, such as making appointments with the surgeon and oncologist, before emotion floods in.Stage 2
Protest
As our initial shock wears off we move into the protest stage, a phase of intense emotion, including anger, sadness, and confusion. As the facts start to sink in, our thoughts set off an emotional reaction. Our fear of surgery and of cancer is probably foremost in our minds. Before we are even sure we have cancer, we often start to think about dying and leaving our loved ones behind. We feel sad for our kids, our partner, and ourselves. We often feel betrayed and angry with our body. My clients consistently ask me what they did to deserve breast cancer. This is the time during which we tend to blame ourselves or others as we try to make sense of the loss. Anger at God, our doctors, or the relatives who passed on the bad genes is very common during the protest stage. Besides feeling the need to direct our anger at someone; it is also common to engage in unrealistic mental bargaining, such as promising to go to church every Sunday if our breast is spared. This bargaining is a combination of denial and our need to feel that we have some control over the situation. During this time, it is also common to experience physical symptoms from stress, such as diarrhea, constipation, neck and shoulder pain, rest-less sleep, and fatigue. Your stomach may ache or you may find yourself with a splitting headache that makes it hard to think. Your body may seem to be screaming out a message of emotional painStage 3
Disorientation
The third stage of grief is the disorientation stage. This stage is often accompanied by restlessness, confusion, and depression, as we have to change our routines and adjust to the changes the mastectomy has brought. We may also continue to experience the physical symptoms of stress during this stage. Disorientation is very natural after your chest has healed enough to begin to wear more normal clothes and you are feeling strong enough to go out in public. You can't just go to your closet and pick out an outfit like before. Throwing on a bra and a T-shirt is not an option at this point. Now, selecting an outfit means finding a top that your tender chest and restricted arm can tolerate, plus finding a way to fill in the missing breast. You have lost a breast, the freedom to wear a variety of clothes, the movement in your arm, trust in your body, some of your sexuality, restful sleep, and physical comfort, to name a few of your many losses. And even though most of these losses are temporary or become easier with time, making the adjustment to them is likely to cause you to feel confused and disoriented.Stage 4
Detachment
Following the disorientation stage we move into the detachment stage. During this stage we tend to isolate and withdraw ourselves, and possibly feel resigned and apathetic. It is as though we have to go off quietly by ourselves and sit with our loss. Too much contact with other people at this time often feels like an intrusion and a lot of work. We often feel we need to be left alone in our misery to fully absorb our loss and get used to the fact that a mastectomy has forever changed our life.Stage 5
Resolution
The last stage of grief is resolution and it is during this stage that we enter a renewed state of reorganization and acceptance. We are not happy about the loss or our breast, but we see that we can live without it. The resolution stage often brings us insight into our life and ourselves that builds character and produce wisdom. During the resolution stage our mood lifts and we find we are able to experience joy again. This is also a time when we become grateful for what we have and want to give back. Volunteerism, such as in breast cancer support organizations, frequently accompanies this last stage of grief. If you give yourself the room to go through the emotions, you will move forward into the resolution stage of grief where you begin to feel acceptance. You will want to take back control of your life by becoming pro-active again. Priorities become redefined and life goals are reestablished. Your overall reaction may actually be a blend of loss and gain. Initially it may have felt like a horrible loss but, as you move through the process, you discover some advantages that come along with your body changes.Automatic Behavior
There is also something called automatic behavior that often accompanies the grief process. This is what is happening when we don't get our routine behaviors quite right and we start to feel like we are going crazy. As we process our loss we become distracted from life's little details, and this natural preoccupation results in poor concentration while attending to daily tasks. As a result of automatic behavior you may find yourself putting the cereal into the refrigerator and the milk into the cupboard, squeezing a tube of skin cream instead of toothpaste onto your toothbrush, or seeing that the traffic light has turned red but not really registering it, and driving right through. Your short-term memory will also be affected because good concentration is required for the memory to work well. Do not panic over these lapses. They are temporary. However, it is helpful to remember that automatic behavior can occur during the grief process, so you can safeguard yourself. When you set out to drive, remind yourself that you are prone to poor concentration and constantly remind yourself to tune into the "here and now." During this time you should stay away from dangerous machinery until you feel your focus and concentration return.
Each of you will go through the grief process in your own way. The stages of grief are meant to give a general description of the grief process, but in reality they are not as clean-cut as I have described. You will move back and forth through the various stages and can experience more than one stage at a time.
The significance you attach to your loss will determine how long your grieving process will last and how intensely you will feel it. Grief from losing a small purchase you just made may last only minutes, whereas a significant loss such as the death of a close friend, a divorce, or a house burning down may take years. Significant losses are often brought to mind by special events and seasons associated with the loss and these triggers can create new emotional pain. Most women take about two years before they report feeling fairly resolved about the loss of a breast. Your most intense grieving will probably happen close to the time of your surgery but you will likely continue to experience some grief from your mastectomy for the rest of your life. You may feel that you have just started to accept your loss just when something else seems to set it off again. It may be three years later, when you are faced with having to find an evening dress for an elegant wedding that you suddenly feel the tears bubbling up again. You may want to scream and stamp your feet at the unfairness of only being able to consider a quarter of the dresses because of the changes to your body. Twenty years after your surgery your best friend or daughter may be diagnosed with breast cancer and you may find yourself reliving some of your own pain as you walk through the process with her. All of these feelings are normal. Every woman grieves in her own way and in her own time.
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Determined- Wow! Great article! I definitely think I've experienced all of this. This article should be shared with anyone just DX. I think it would have helped me so much to understand how I was feeling and why. I do feel like I've reached the resolution stage just in the past few months. (I was DX 2 years ago this month so timeline is pretty accurate- at least for me.) I'm thinking the time frame of reaching resolution would be based on when we all finish reconstruction- if we have recon at all. I know I didn't feel as though I was moving forward until then. Interesting what they said about wanting to give back during the resolution stage because that's where I've been lately. Just haven't figured out where I want to channel that, yet. Thanks for sharing this.
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